Not By Works

[benhur]

What does this have to do with you keeping everything you are supposed to keep? Even the pharisees could obey Gods commands. What good did it do them?

They rejected Jesus Christ as their savior. They thought being perfect in the law of Moses would gain them EL. They were mistaken.

We as Christians trust the Lord Jesus Christ, and then we are born-again into a new person in Christ, then we are guided by the Holy Spirit to do the works that Jesus before ordained that we should walk in them. This is another way of saying, keeping the commandments of Jesus (whether you like the words "keep his commandments" or not).

 

[VCO]

though the flesh is right about one thing, that the ways of God is like resentment to the flesh,
what the flesh fail to realize is that it's possible that your bad habit and your autopilot is resentful and your intent can still "call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved"

the idea of giving up sin can lead to feelings of deprivation, and here's a secret Satan doesn't want you to know: treat that lowly feeling of deprivation, as if God is humbling you, take the opportunity, and if you prefer the teachings from VCO where he said that the saved would want to love and obey God, ask God to help your heart love and obey God, this will take resolve and yes, I do have some apologizing to do, but more importantly we are on the same side, on the same team and we should not be divided over petty issues that Satan can create out of thin air.

and, when you are tempted to remember "but what about my good deeds in the past", consider how the righteousness of Christ exceeds the value of self-righteousness, whatever your good deeds are in the past, consider this "surrender the past, because the past is gone" the past is dead, the present is alive, forget the past, you are praying now as an expression of your salvation, and now is all that matters (and praying is not to gain salvation, even though that's what it feels like, praying for that moment is part of assurance, as dcon have said, you are saved in a microsecond)

and when temptation happen, the most effective prayer is to pray to God to steer your heart "pattern of desire" toward the right direction (the heart is the center, just like Israel)

Satan will continue to harass us, but God is our protector (Satan knows how salvation works anyway)

and Mr. VCO, I apologize for whatever the origin of our misunderstanding, I should have sympathy for the human mind, we can never live forever on this earth, and economic inflation is reason enough to store treasures in heaven, not on earth, where no thieves can steal from you.

the way I try to handle conflict is just as ineffective as trying to deal with sin on our own, we need the hands of God to help us

I wish to say I planned it, but why take pride in that, if it is God who controls all.

let's wipe our slate clean, shake hands with Mr. VCO, give a warm hug to Jesus (not yet physically) and give thanks to God

and leave whatever remaining hate we may have against Satan and leave it at that

Where on God's green earth did you get the Idea that I hate you ? ? ?

I see you as one that is teachable, and guess what those who present themselves as TEACHABLE are? A disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems you have misunderstood something that I said, if so I am sorry; however, dcon and I have almost the same view on everything. Yes the Holy Spirit enters your heart in a microsecond, and the reason that I say Salvation is the same day you first believe is:

Romans 10:8-13 (HCSB)
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
11 Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,
12 for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him.
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

You inherit the Righteousness of Christ in a microsecond, when the Holy Spirit comes into your Heart (human spirit).
And the Minute you tell someone that you have just Received JESUS CHRIST as LORD of your Life (meaning master), you are saved.
What about the Mutes? Jesus will consider the thought as wanting to verbalize it, therefore they are saved too.

NOTICE it says CONFESS, and that has to be true in your HEART (that microsecond) prior to that to be a CONFESSION, or it is ONLY a PROFESSION.

If someone is with you when you willing out of LOVE surrender to Jesus Christ, you probably will tell that Person. If you are alone, when it happens, you will most likely want to tell the first person that you SEE, or verbalize it to yourself. NO THAT IS NOT A WORK, IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU THAT WILL WANT TO VERBALIZE IT. That is why I say the Day you first believed.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NKJV)
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and
no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

That is SAY IT AS A CONFESSION that is true in their Heart, and not a PROFESSION, just saying the words. You will know when you have REALLY surrendered to HIM as YOUR LORD.

If you go to down town to where winos (addicted to wine) gather, and offer them money to say "JESUS is LORD", they will say it so fast, just to get the money to buy another bottle of wine, but NONE OF THEM ARE SAVED; WHY? They said it as a PROFESSION, and NOT something that was true in their Hearts first, a sincere CONFESSION.

 

[VCO]

They rejected Jesus Christ as their savior. They thought being perfect in the law of Moses would gain them EL. They were mistaken.

We as Christians trust the Lord Jesus Christ, and then we are born-again into a new person in Christ, then we are guided by the Holy Spirit to do the works that Jesus before ordained that we should walk in them. This is another way of saying, keeping the commandments of Jesus (whether you like the words "keep his commandments" or not).

Ben you are getting closer to the truth all the time. At least you are careful how you word things. Now if we can JUST get you to admit they were SAVED ETERNALLY before they did the things that He commanded us to do; and after SALVATION, we ONLY to them, because we LOVE HIM and the Brethren, you will have arrived at the truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They rejected Jesus Christ as their savior. They thought being perfect in the law of Moses would gain them EL. They were mistaken.

We as Christians trust the Lord Jesus Christ, and then we are born-again into a new person in Christ, then we are guided by the Holy Spirit to do the works that Jesus before ordained that we should walk in them. This is another way of saying, keeping the commandments of Jesus (whether you like the words "keep his commandments" or not).

Again, Why are you keeping the commandments

I do not hate those words, So please stop with the nonsense and false attributing what is being said. Can you ever listen to people without assuming things?

I keep Gods commands because I walk in Love, As jesus said, Do this, you will obey the commands.

You do them to maintain your salvation. There is a HUGE difference between you and me. Maybe one day you will realise the difference in our motives.

 

[benhur]

no ben , its not a combination of our trust in Christ , and our good works that carries us to Eternal Life

Its placing our faith and trust in Christ ALONE that does that !

If the Lord has before ordained you to walk in good works, and the Holy Spirit is guiding you to be engaged in the great work of the Lord, and you refuse to do these great works because of your belief that Christ ALONE is all I need, and if I do these great works it means I am trying to boast and work my way into heaven, and this I shall not do, you will miss the point of being a new person in Christ and you will frustrate the work of the Lord, and this is why the Lord says that God will take you away if you do not produce fruit for his kingdom.

 

[TruthTalk]

Again, Why are you keeping the commandments I keep Gods commands because I walk in Love, As jesus said, Do this, you will obey the commands.

"You do them to maintain your salvation." There is a HUGE difference between you and me. Maybe one day you will realise the difference in our motives.

Amen E-g, it is our motive that concerns God, are we trying to merit God's gift, "eternal salvation." Benhur continually puts his works as the key factor for our salvation and all he can offer to support his false belief is one verse in the entire bible, John15:2, and then neglect overwhelmingly dozens of scripture verses that say what will separate us from the love of God, "Nothing will."

You cannot make a doctrine of the Church based on one misinterpretation of the bible. This is basic Hermeneutics and benhur fails at the proper rules of interpretation over and over, because it does not fit his salvation by works counterfeit gospel.

​

Luke18:9-13: The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9) To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10) “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11) The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12) I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’13) “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said,
‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

 

[calibob]

Works is not the fruit. The fruit is the result of good works. For instance when you cloth the naked, and feed the poor, and visit the widow and the captive, and you take care of injustice, these are all good works, and the result is one of God's children is relieved of the burden of this life, and the result of be relieved is that they look up to God and thank God for sending them relief. This good works leads to a man or woman believing that there is a God in heaven that is watching over them, and it brings them closer to the KOG.

The fruit of our good works is souls are saved into the KOG. It is not word salad, it is the work of the Lord to save souls, and we are an important part of that saving of souls. So as a new person, born-again, and saved, be willing to be engaged in the work of the Lord and bring forth fruit for his kingdom. Or as John 15:2 tells us: Every branch in me that does not produce fruit, he (God) will take it away. If you are taken away you will not have EL with God, you will be somewhere else.

What you've said this time all came naturally to me after I was saved and serving the Lord in the ways you've mentioned don't really seem like work because they fill my heart with joy to be of service to the one who died for us. I don't do it because I have to but rather that I get to. PTL cali.

 

[TruthTalk]

If the Lord has before ordained you to walk in good works, and the Holy Spirit is guiding you to be engaged in the great work of the Lord, and you refuse to do these great works because of your belief that Christ ALONE is all I need, and if I do these great works it means I am trying to boast and work my way into heaven, and this I shall not do, you will miss the point of being a new person in Christ and you will frustrate the work of the Lord, and this is why the Lord says that God will take you away if you do not produce fruit for his kingdom.

"A wrong interpretation" of the bible will always give you "a wrong application" of the bible and that is not a good place to be in for you and I who are subject to listen to benhurs counterfeit gospel. benhur is telling us that God will "cut us off", from our gift of eternal salvation and nobody should stand for this fake gospel.

Benhur is pushing a false works/salvation gospel and everybody knows it.

 

[benhur]

Ben, doing good works has NO bearing at all on our salvation. They don't save us, keep us saved nor do they get us into heaven.. Good works are a by-product of our faith. However, works done for the sole purpose of keeping or gaining salvation, are works done in vain..

You are right, when works are done for the purpose of keeping or gaining salvation. But if works are done because the Holy Spirit guides you to do the works that God has before ordained you to walk in, do you think we need to be engaged in these kinds of good works?

 

[benhur]

What you've said this time all came naturally to me after I was saved and serving the Lord in the ways you've mentioned don't really seem like work because they fill my heart with joy to be of service to the one who died for us. I don't do it because I have to but rather that I get to. PTL cali.

Thank you for that. And the same feelings I have as I serve Jesus, who died for us. We are not far apart.

Part of my ministry is to warn people if they do not have this natural feeling to good works, they may have to inquire of the Lord to see if they are really saved.

 

[VCO]

benhur :

Ben you are getting closer to the truth all the time. At least you are careful how you word things. Now if we can JUST get you to admit they were SAVED ETERNALLY before they did the things that He commanded us to do; and after SALVATION, we ONLY to them, because we LOVE HIM and the Brethren, you will have arrived at the truth.

OOPS typo on the last line: we ONLY DO them, because we LOVE HIM and the Brethren, you will have arrived at the truth.

 

[VCO]

Thank you for that. And the same feelings I have as I serve Jesus, who died for us. We are not far apart.

Part of my ministry is to warn people if they do not have this natural feeling to good works, they may have to inquire of the Lord to see if they are really saved.

But you warn them with interpretation of the Scriptures that actually CONTRADICT what the Bible Says. Your Zeal is misguided, because you have bought an untruth.

 

[blue_ladybug]

You are right, when works are done for the purpose of keeping or gaining salvation. But if works are done because the Holy Spirit guides you to do the works that God has before ordained you to walk in, do you think we need to be engaged in these kinds of good works?

Even BEFORE any of us were saved, we did good works. Opened doors for other people, mowed a neighbor's lawn, shoveled someone's yard. BUT those works did NOT lead us to our salvation, nor did they secure us a seat in heaven. As I said before, doing good works (AFTER being saved) is a natural by-product of our salvation. We naturally want to do good works, whether it was commanded or not..

BUT if we do them ONLY to gain points with God, then those are works done in vain. Goody points are meaningless to God.

 

[dcontroversal]

no ben , its not a combination of our trust in Christ , and our good works that carries us to Eternal Life

Its placing our faith and trust in Christ ALONE that does that !

This ^^^^^^^^^^ and good reply......was going to engage him and correct his view, but figured it would be good to allow others a chance first....thanks for taking up the sword and answering biblically......

 

[dcontroversal]

But you warn them with interpretation of the Scriptures that actually CONTRADICT what the Bible Says. Your Zeal is misguided, because you have bought an untruth.

Just like the Pharisees of old.....with ZEAL yet missing the mark by a proverbial mile........

 

[dcontroversal]

Even BEFORE any of us were saved, we did good works. Opened doors for other people, mowed a neighbor's lawn, shoveled someone's yard. BUT those works did NOT lead us to our salvation, nor did they secure us a seat in heaven. As I said before, doing good works (AFTER being saved) is a natural by-product of our salvation. We naturally want to do good works, whether it was commanded or not..

BUT if we do them ONLY to gain points with God, then those are works done in vain. Goody points are meaningless to God.

You know....a truth that gets overlooked.....There is not a just man upon the earth that does Good and sins not.....ANY GOOD that comes from us after salvation is JESUS through us as a LIVING sacrifice....exactly why he gets ALL the glory and NO MAN can BOAST or stand before GOD and say..."lookie" at me and what I HAVE DONE......

 

[calibob]

Even BEFORE any of us were saved, we did good works. Opened doors for other people, mowed a neighbor's lawn, shoveled someone's yard. BUT those works did NOT lead us to our salvation, nor did they secure us a seat in heaven. As I said before, doing good works (AFTER being saved) is a natural by-product of our salvation. We naturally want to do good works, whether it was commanded or not..

BUT if we do them ONLY to gain points with God, then those are works done in vain. Goody points are meaningless to God.

I've shoveled mud out of streets, does that count?

 

[theanointedsinner]

I've shoveled mud out of streets, does that count?

in the physical world, yes

but for spiritual matters, we need Jesus to shovel our mud, and ask Jesus to help us love Jesus, and hate our own mud

or, your comment is meant as rhetorical, and that can be a good teaching tool, which makes a big ASSUMPTION that others are teachable, and I mean a big assumption here.

 

[calibob]

This is winter where I come from!

 

[calibob]

Even BEFORE any of us were saved, we did good works. Opened doors for other people, mowed a neighbor's lawn, shoveled someone's yard. BUT those works did NOT lead us to our salvation, nor did they secure us a seat in heaven. As I said before, doing good works (AFTER being saved) is a natural by-product of our salvation. We naturally want to do good works, whether it was commanded or not..

BUT if we do them ONLY to gain points with God, then those are works done in vain. Goody points are meaningless to God.

This is winter where I come from!