Predestination or free wiil.

[Studyman]

It may be harsh, But its true, and somewtimes reality can be quite harsh

God gets all the glory.

1. He died on the cross not me
2. He sent the Spirit to convict me of my sin, I did nto convince myself
3. He caused me to see my plight, I did not just see it of my own power
4. He did the work of helping me understand the gospel, I could not understand it on my own
5. He offered me his gift of eternal life based 100% on his work. I ofered myself eternal death based on my sin.

All I did was in faith say yes lord. And God gave me his GIFT.

You do not earn a gift, you recieve it in faith,

You think that is work. You do not know what work is.

Your religion sounds real religious EG, but are we not supposed to let the Word of God guide our footsteps? You say a spirit convinced you of what is sin and what is not, that you didn't make the choice. But Paul said;

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world (Which would include the religions of this world, yes) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Acts 26:
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (He doesn't say the Christ does all these things for them as you preach)

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not our works EG, but the Works before ordained by God. Would those "good works" be found in the Law and Prophets that the Christ said he came, not to destroy but to put into effect, to complete, to fulfill?


And the Christ said:

Matt. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, (my work) and followeth after me, (my choice) is not worthy of me.

These are all choices that I am instructed to make. These are actions that I am to do in order to be "worthy" of the Christ.

The Christ doesn't make them for me. He doesn't pick up my cross for me, he doesn't "follow" Himself for me. He provides the "Word", and He provides "another voice" like the serpent with Eve, and then we make our choice whether to listen to Him or the other voice.

He says He gives us His Spirit after we "choose" to Love Him and Keep His Word, after we make the Choice to serve Him and not the religions of the land. Not before when we were of the world who can not receive His Truth.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

A choice we make, the Christ doesn't make this choice for us. And as the Word which became Flesh He made the same promise.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that (Choose) love me, and keep my commandments.


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

No doubt there is a spirit of this world which loves nothing better than to define sin for those who turn to God, just as the serpent defined God's Word to Eve.

I think this is why the Christ told His People we are to live by "Every Word" of God, the Christ doesn't "live by" them for us.

His Grace saves us, not those who just hear Him and give Him the credit for their actions as did those "Christians" the Christ warned about in Matt. 7, no, not the hearers of His Word, but the doers of His Word.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes you do You can twist it all you want, I showed ALL of the passages on predestination. You want to focus on one word. Good luck wiht that my friend.

If I am not also in context. The passage has NO MEANING.

Eternallygrateful, You are so close, all you lack is to DENY YOURSELF, take up your cross and follow Christ (Matt 16:24)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It may be harsh, But its true, and somewtimes reality can be quite harsh

God gets all the glory.

1. He died on the cross not me
2. He sent the Spirit to convict me of my sin, I did nto convince myself
3. He caused me to see my plight, I did not just see it of my own power
4. He did the work of helping me understand the gospel, I could not understand it on my own
5. He offered me his gift of eternal life based 100% on his work. I ofered myself eternal death based on my sin.

All I did was in faith say yes lord. And God gave me his GIFT.

You do not earn a gift, you recieve it in faith,

You think that is work. You do not know what work is.

The thing that you do not seem to understand is the condition you were in when you said "yes Lord". The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot say "yes" to spiritual things, because he cannot discern spiritual things, so, you must have already been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which, FAITH is a fruit of.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Can anyone here show me where in the Bible is the idea of free wii. Everything about scripture indicates that God knows and plans everything. It makes sense that God plans everything since He knows all.

So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7



Man's Choice -

• If you do well, will you not be accepted?
• And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

JPT

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Here, the elect are enemies of the gospel...

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

God changed Jacob's name to be called "Israel" (Gen 32:28). Jacob (Israel) is representative of God's elect, so, when you see Israel mentioned it is a lot of the time talking about God's elect.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your religion sounds real religious EG, but are we not supposed to let the Word of God guide our footsteps? You say a spirit convinced you of what is sin and what is not, that you didn't make the choice. But Paul said;

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world (Which would include the religions of this world, yes) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Acts 26:
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (He doesn't say the Christ does all these things for them as you preach)

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not our works EG, but the Works before ordained by God. Would those "good works" be found in the Law and Prophets that the Christ said he came, not to destroy but to put into effect, to complete, to fulfill?


And the Christ said:

Matt. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, (my work) and followeth after me, (my choice) is not worthy of me.

These are all choices that I am instructed to make. These are actions that I am to do in order to be "worthy" of the Christ.

The Christ doesn't make them for me. He doesn't pick up my cross for me, he doesn't "follow" Himself for me. He provides the "Word", and He provides "another voice" like the serpent with Eve, and then we make our choice whether to listen to Him or the other voice.

He says He gives us His Spirit after we "choose" to Love Him and Keep His Word, after we make the Choice to serve Him and not the religions of the land. Not before when we were of the world who can not receive His Truth.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

A choice we make, the Christ doesn't make this choice for us. And as the Word which became Flesh He made the same promise.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that (Choose) love me, and keep my commandments.


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

No doubt there is a spirit of this world which loves nothing better than to define sin for those who turn to God, just as the serpent defined God's Word to Eve.

I think this is why the Christ told His People we are to live by "Every Word" of God, the Christ doesn't "live by" them for us.

His Grace saves us, not those who just hear Him and give Him the credit for their actions as did those "Christians" the Christ warned about in Matt. 7, no, not the hearers of His Word, but the doers of His Word.

John 14:15 dose not say "that he gives us his Spirit after we choose to love him." We love him, because He first loved us.

 

[Studyman]

John 14:15 dose not say "that he gives us his Spirit after we choose to love him." We love him, because He first loved us.

Yes, He loved us by paying the death penalty for all. But not everyone get's His Spirit as it is written. Although the past sins of the people of the world have been covered, this same world can not receive His Spirit of truth.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Christ loves us while we were yet sinners, as He does for all people. But just because He paid their debt, doesn't mean they accept Him and His instructions. For those who Do, He gives them His Spirit of Truth. At least this is what the Scriptures teach.

 

[posthuman]

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God -- this is your true and proper worship. ​

(Romans 12:1) ​

iirc,

under the law the offerings for sin, guilt and atonement were killed & burned. these were involuntary, commanded offerings.
the offerings that 'lived' ((i.e. were not destroyed)) were grain & peace offerings - voluntary expressions of devotion and thanksgiving ((tho some peace offerings could also be slain animals)).

 

[Hevosmies]

there are no scriptures telling how the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, what he must do to save himself eternally. .

There is actually. That questioned is asked by unbelievers many times.

Acts 16:30-31 is one example. "What must I do to be saved" he asks Paul and Silas. They respond believe in Jesus, meaning the man didnt believe in Jesus before being told to do so.

Acts 2:37 is another example, "what shall we do?" they ask Peter. Peter responds repent and be baptized each of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit

Thats a couple of examples from the top of my head.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, He loved us by paying the death penalty for all. But not everyone get's His Spirit as it is written. Although the past sins of the people of the world have been covered, this same world can not receive His Spirit of truth.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Christ loves us while we were yet sinners, as He does for all people. But just because He paid their debt, doesn't mean they accept Him and His instructions. For those who Do, He gives them His Spirit of Truth. At least this is what the Scriptures teach.

I think , maybe, you are missing something in John 6:39 - Christ did not die for the sins of "ALL" mankind, but only those that the Father gave him, and he said that he would raise them all (of those that God gave him) up at the last day, without the lose of even one.

 

[Hevosmies]

I think , maybe, you are missing something in John 6:39 - Christ did not die for the sins of "ALL" mankind, but only those that the Father gave him, and he said that he would raise them all (of those that God gave him) up at the last day, without the lose of even one.

Wrong again. Christ died for everyone.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

And more. Out of all the points of TULIP, L is probably the worst and most unbiblical.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is actually. That questioned is asked by unbelievers many times.

Acts 16:30-31 is one example. "What must I do to be saved" he asks Paul and Silas. They respond believe in Jesus, meaning the man didnt believe in Jesus before being told to do so.

Acts 2:37 is another example, "what shall we do?" they ask Peter. Peter responds repent and be baptized each of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit

Thats a couple of examples from the top of my head.

In both of the scriptures you gave me, the people that are delivered are not the natural man, described in 1 Cor 2:14, but have already been regenerated children of God. In Acts 16:30-31, the jailer believed in God and felt guilty . The natural man would have felt any guilt. Acts 2:37 - The men would not have been "PRICKED" in their hearts, had they been but natural men. Believing in Jesus is a result of being regenerated, not a cause to be regenerated. The natural man, as described, in 1 Cor 2:14 does not think he has anything to be guilty of, because he cannot discern spiritual laws. These are two favorite scriptures of the Church Of Christ of which I was a member until I understood it to be a false doctrine.

 

[Studyman]

I think , maybe, you are missing something in John 6:39 - Christ did not die for the sins of "ALL" mankind, but only those that the Father gave him, and he said that he would raise them all (of those that God gave him) up at the last day, without the lose of even one.

Well, I agree that God gives men to the Christ, but are you saying the Blood of the Christ didn't offer forgiveness for all men that turn to God? Who is it that turns to God and is refused?

 

[trofimus]

Wrong again. Christ died for everyone.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

And more. Out of all the points of TULIP, L is probably the worst and most unbiblical.

What if I say that Christ´s death is a payment sufficient to save all, but it will have the effect only in those who are predestined, therefore the atonement is unlimited in its ability, but limited in its effect.

 

[Studyman]

What if I say that Christ´s death is a payment sufficient to save all, but it will have the effect only in those who are predestined, therefore the atonement is unlimited in its ability, but limited in its effect.

Wouldn't it depend on your understanding of "predestination"?

For instance, Some believe, as I do, that God already knows who will offer themselves a living sacrifice to Him because God has seen the future, then that person is "Predestined" for atonement because God already knows the choices he will make, but we don't. This person would more likely "take Heed" regarding his choices and beliefs and would "work" to endure until the end of their life as the Christ taught.

But some folks believe God "picks winners and losers" based on invisible guidelines that only He knows. These people believe God has "picked" them based on nothing a person does, or choices a person makes. God just picks some and rejects some and no one knows how or why.

These folks are more secure in their religion because they have been convinced that they are already saved, as was Eve. No reason to "take Heed" or "beware" if you are already immortal, already saved, already guaranteed at spot in the kingdom regardless of religious traditions or lifestyles.

If a person doesn't make it, as those "Christians" in Matt. 7, they just say "Well they weren't saved to begin with".

So I would say, that given God is no respecter of persons, atonement is unlimited in it's "Ability" to save anyone who would turn to God, regardless of sins committed, religious traditions lived in, etc., as long as they truly repented of these things.

Anyone who would give God back their free will and tell Him, "I can't handle this power", please guide my steps with "Your Word", would be "predestined" for atonement. As it was written beforehand;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[Hevosmies]

What if I say that Christ´s death is a payment sufficient to save all, but it will have the effect only in those who are predestined, therefore the atonement is unlimited in its ability, but limited in its effect.

I heard R.C. Sproul say something to that effect. Its just a way to make calvinism sound a bit more biblical. This way he can preach what the bible says, while maintaining the false TULIP.

Truth is that Jesus died for all, thats the good news after all. However if its not MIXED WITH FAITH, it doesn't do anything. Just like how atonement worked in the OT, day of atonement:


Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

What do we see here? The biblical model of atonement: The sacrifice is made, yet the "soul that shall not be afflicted (humble, deny self in other translations) will be cut off from the people"
So the sacrifice is of no effect, unless they are "afflicted".
How does this work today? Same way. Jesus was the sacrifice, and those who believe in His sacrifice for them, are saved. Those who dont, the sacrifice is of no use if they remain in unbelief.

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Same thing again. In the wilderness, the serpent was there for ALL to look at, but only those who LOOKED were healed. Again the same thing with Jesus, Jesus is lifted up, but only those who believe have eternal life.
S-i-m-p-l-e. Even a theologian should understand that.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Wrong again. Christ died for everyone.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

And more. Out of all the points of TULIP, L is probably the worst and most unbiblical.

There is a deliverance (salvation) when a child of God "COMES UNTO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" The thing that trips up most of God's children from understanding and harmonizing the scriptures is because they do not understand that Strong's meaning of the word "SALVATION" is "a deliverance". We are delivered eternally and we are delivered many times as we live here on earth. Most of the salvation scriptures are pertaining to a deliverance here on earth. For instance, can you see two different salvations in the following scriptures? You are SAVED by grace, and that not of yourselves. and SAVE yourselves from this untoward generation. In order to be understanding the doctrine that Jesus taught, all of the scriptures must harmonize, 1 Ti 2:14 - All elect men. Heb 2:9 - every man that God gave his Son. 1 Jh 2:2 - World of the elect. Joh 1:9 - every elect man. I have attempted to address all the scriptures you have given me. Would you have the respect to address these? 1 Cor 2:14, Romans 9:11-13, Ps 73:5, John 6:39, for just a few.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, I agree that God gives men to the Christ, but are you saying the Blood of the Christ didn't offer forgiveness for all men that turn to God? Who is it that turns to God and is refused?

We are all born into this world by natural birth and all of us fall into the condemnation of Adam. ! Cor 2:14 explains our condition as natural men. The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, will not turn to God, because God is a Spirit and the natural man cannot discern spiritual things. The only way that the natural man can become a spiritual man and be saved is explained in Eph 2:5, when he is still dead in sins and unable to respond to God.

 

[Lillywolf]

Can anyone here show me where in the Bible is the idea of free wii. Everything about scripture indicates that God knows and plans everything. It makes sense that God plans everything since He knows all.

I think we serve under the illusion we have free will.
2 Thessalonians13[KJV]: But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Exodus 33:19[KJV] And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

Ecclesiastes 7 [KJV]13:Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Matthew 5:45 [KJV] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Titus 3:4[KJV] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Wouldn't it depend on your understanding of "predestination"?

For instance, Some believe, as I do, that God already knows who will offer themselves a living sacrifice to Him because God has seen the future, then that person is "Predestined" for atonement because God already knows the choices he will make, but we don't. This person would more likely "take Heed" regarding his choices and beliefs and would "work" to endure until the end of their life as the Christ taught.

But some folks believe God "picks winners and losers" based on invisible guidelines that only He knows. These people believe God has "picked" them based on nothing a person does, or choices a person makes. God just picks some and rejects some and no one knows how or why.

These folks are more secure in their religion because they have been convinced that they are already saved, as was Eve. No reason to "take Heed" or "beware" if you are already immortal, already saved, already guaranteed at spot in the kingdom regardless of religious traditions or lifestyles.

If a person doesn't make it, as those "Christians" in Matt. 7, they just say "Well they weren't saved to begin with".

So I would say, that given God is no respecter of persons, atonement is unlimited in it's "Ability" to save anyone who would turn to God, regardless of sins committed, religious traditions lived in, etc., as long as they truly repented of these things.

Anyone who would give God back their free will and tell Him, "I can't handle this power", please guide my steps with "Your Word", would be "predestined" for atonement. As it was written beforehand;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

In regards to your comments about God's foreknowledge you best read Ps 53:2-3. which would make it necessary for God to choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and have his Son to cleanse them from their sins. The natural man, described in 1 Cor 2:14, will never turn to a spiritual God because he cannot discern spiritual things.