Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
You have NEVER ANSWERED what Denomination do you call home.


I THINK YOU HAVE JUST EXPOSED YOURSELF!


YOU ARE A JEHOVAH WITNESS AREN'T YOU ? ? ?


John 1:1 (HCSB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (HCSB)
14 The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

John 14:9 (NKJV)
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)

10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
11 I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Luke 2:11 (NKJV)
11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Do you believe in 3 Persons in 1 God? Do you believe those 3 Persons are distinct from each other?
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
So if you are not called, are you automatically damned to hell for all eternity?
Why the "sour grapes" benhur?, it has become clear to everyone that you do not know the "Sovereign God of the Universe."
"For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matthew22:14
Matthew22:11-14
The Parable of the Banquet
11)
But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes. 12) ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’
But the man was speechless.
13) Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14) For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Romans9:10-16
10) Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11) Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12) "not by works", but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13) Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14) What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15) For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16) It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
I'm still not ready to understand the verb tense in greek, and they have weird squiggly alphabets (from that blue letter bible websites) and my head aches trying to understand it, and I never seen words like Aorist Tense

but on second thought, we can always start somewhere, and is what you are suggesting that I can start with (from reading VCO's post) ...
Keep striving toward the direction of God's commandment.
incase if we fail, God gave us the option to confess, and get us back on track
and, reading God's word helps us mature toward godly direction, and sinning less and less will naturally come to you. (which will become second nature)


I know, it took me years to get this LITTLE knowledge that I have about those Verb Tenses in the Greek. So KEEP studying the WORD in English. I see you making little mistake with the ENGLISH Tenses once in awhile, so keep studying. That is normal for young believers. When my Pastor Explained a Verse, and a why that Verb, meant something different, than I thought it meant. My ears perked up, and I wrote it in the back part of my Bible on those BLANK PAGES. When it was FULL, I got a new Bible.

Let me give you a head Start. JOHN, absolutely LOVED the Greek Present Tense verbs. Most of his writings the VERB is FREQUENTLY in the GREEK Present Tense, especially in 1 John. The way I remember how it is used, is it is the Tense that IMPLIES a CONTINUOUS ACTION of Doing that VERB. In 1 John 2:4 in English, it sounds like if You are not PERFECT at KEEPING IT, you are a Liar about KNOWING HIM. WRONG! In the GREEK Present Tense you find out it's TRUE MEANING. If you don't KEEP on Striving to KEEP HIS Commandments, then you are a LIAR about KNOWING HIM. SO YES, when we stumble into Sin, We get right back up, CONFESS IT TO THE LORD, and CONTINUE to KEEP on STRIVING to KEEP HIS Commandments, OUT OF PURE LOVE FOR HIM. It will get Easier as we continually feed our Human Spirit on the WORD OF GOD.

Therefore, like I said, as you Mature in the spirit, You will sin LESS, and LESS, and LESS. But We will not be PERFECT at KEEPING HIS commandments, UNTIL we get that Sinless, Glorified Body at the Resurrection.

Philippians 1:6 (NLT2)
6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Salvation happens to your human spirit, the day you first genuinely BELIEVED.

Sanctification, is a Process where your body, becomes MORE and MORE like CHRIST your whole life.


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@


Let me give you a tip on how to find the Greek Tense of the Verb in the WORD.

HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE, FOR ATTENTIVELY LISTENING TO YOUR PASTOR,
OR ASKING AN OLDER BROTHER IN CHRIST, FOR HIS INPUT ON WHAT A VERSE MEANS BY WHAT IT SAYS.
JUST BE SURE IT IS REALLY AN OLDER BROTHER, AND NOT ONE WHO HAS DIFFERENT DOCTRINES.

How to find Verb Tenses in the BLUE LETTER BIBLE.

If this is too complicated for you, save it for later.
Click on this link in a separate TAB.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/14/15/t_conc_1011015

Now come back for more instructions.
See that Text Box up top, dead center just below DEVOTIONALS, that is where you TYPE the verse you want to find.
See the word TOOLS left of each Bible Verse, TOP and BOTTOM, of the Open Verse window, click there to open a new verse.
It is already on John 14:15, so we will use that as an example, so look in the Open Verse window.
See the word PARSE in a box clear over to the right of the Bible verses, those are VERBS.
Sometimes in English a Verb translates to a Phase. Click on the word PARSE, just to the right side of the phrase ye love.
Now you see the little popup window with the TENSE of the Greek Word for ye love and it is Present Tense.
Now with that little popup open, Double Click on the word Present and another little popup window opens below.
That will give you the DEFINITION of the Greek Present Tense, sometimes rendered as PAST TENSE in English.

Here is the Bottom Half of the definition, that will give you an Idea how I came to nick name it Continuous Action Verb, so I could remember it:

Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.

In other words, it happened in the past, but is continues to be a LIFESTYLE on into the future.

The Next Verb is that Aorist Tense verb you were talking about, see if you can figure it out.

That gives a new meaning to the expression, "THAT'S GREEK TO ME".

They are not even sure if it can be defined in English. Here is my thought, and I am not a Greek Scholar, but I know how to use these tools. Because of the following statement, it is another Continuous Action Verb:

the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time.

I other words it is another example of that which we DO AS A LIFESTYLE.


I hope this will be of help for you.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Hahahhahahahahhahaahaha wow man....and you actually buy the above drivel...."worthy of saving grace" hahahaha It is obvious you do not understand GRACE and while we were yet SINNING CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY......NOT SOMEONE WORTHY of saving grace.....you have a lot to learn man before you are right with God
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Yes Decon, I do really believe what you judge as drivel.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Ah yes but one has to determine what that Gospel message is.

What about name it and claim it, the prosperity gospel and the likes?
They think they are preaching the gospel message.
The gospel message is simple!

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Of course this will require explanation and acceptance by the person. Too many reject this. They want to earn it and can't understand that it is a free gift.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
unbelieveable isnt it !!!!

Not ONE OF US is worthy of Gods grace

thats why it is defined as " unmerited favor , undeserved favor "
And yet the Man who allowed Himself to be tortured and killed to absolve us of our lawlessness said;

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

It is truly "Unbelievable" as "many" on this forum have proven. Just for the record, I believe EVERY WORD of the Christ. Why wouldn't I if I love Him?
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
310
443
63
And yet the Man who allowed Himself to be tortured and killed to absolve us of our lawlessness said;

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

It is truly "Unbelievable" as "many" on this forum have proven. Just for the record, I believe EVERY WORD of the Christ. Why wouldn't I if I love Him?

That verse is speaking about ummmmm " discipleship " not Salvation which is a FREE GIFT
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
The scriptures say what they say. I can't save myself, but I can "turn to the Word of God which became Flesh" and He has promised that "everyone" who "denies themselves", and "follows" Him is worthy of His Saving Grace.
Do you honestly believe that we can become worthy of his saving grace.
If so then are you saying our works make us worthy?

Think about it, you have said "Works do not save us"
So if there is something that makes us worthy then it has to be our works.
Is that correct?

Or is it that God makes us worthy as a result of his saving grace?

Grace is unmerited favour.
Grace has nothing to do with the beloved but by the lover.
Grace is about love.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son.
That's grace in action.
For the world.
Then whoever believes in him will be saved.

We are made worthy based on what Jesus has done.
That is what makes us worthy.

Faith in Jesus.

Romans 4:22-25
22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

As a result we are called to

1 Thessalonians 2:12
12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

Colossians 1:10
10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Ephesians 4:1-3

Walk in Unity
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

We have been made worthy based on what Jesus has done and not what we do.
It's as a result of his unmerited favour.
The lover of our souls who have gave everything for us.
We do that to others God has given us to walk with.

We will never ever be worthy of his grace.
But we sure can be thankful of his grace that sets us free to be like him, not to be saved but because we are saved.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
The gospel message is simple!

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Of course this will require explanation and acceptance by the person. Too many reject this. They want to earn it and can't understand that it is a free gift.
Yeh as we say over here.

"There is no such thing as a free lunch"
But

Isaiah 55:1-3

An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
And yet the Man who allowed Himself to be tortured and killed to absolve us of our lawlessness said;

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

It is truly "Unbelievable" as "many" on this forum have proven. Just for the record, I believe EVERY WORD of the Christ. Why wouldn't I if I love Him?
You need to back up the claim you make.
You yourself has said that works do not save.
The intent and purpose of this thread.

So back up your claim and quote people who say that works do not follow through as result of genuine faith.
Can you do that?
Please do not quote verses that Jesus said.

Quote quotes that people on this thread have said we do not need to good works.
It's interesting you say "Why wouldn't if I did not love him?

That's exactly the point VCO presses in on, but you reject everything he says.
Open to correction here, if I'm wrong then please post a response where you agree with him in terms of we do works out of love
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
I get what your saying , but Paul himself admitted that he sinned willfully , like we all do , its our spirit that has been born again , not our flesh

Should we fight against our sinful nature ? Of course , but there will be times when we lose , just like Paul describes
Our spirit is born again, but not our flesh? Would you explain that to me, Thank you.
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
310
443
63
Our spirit is born again, but not our flesh? Would you explain that to me, Thank you.
ben , its our spirit , our inner being thats been born again , but we still live in our sinful flesh , thats why the scriptures say that one born of God cannott sin , because God looks at our spirit , and if we have been born again , he sees Jesus's righteousness , its not ours . Our flesh is weak , and all believers will sin , as much as some dont want to admit that , its the truth
Not one sin can enter Gods heaven , thats why he says " Be ye perfect , as I am perfect "
Can we ever live perfectly in this life , no we cant , we need Jesus's righteousness
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
common ground
- heaven exist
- salvation is important
- humans are capable of "good works"
- the Bible is true <-- agreeing with this one is very important

Scriptures and explanation

Apostle Paul's Lament
Romans 7:24 - What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death

if we put the two together for Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23
both are trying to say "all deserve death"

hence, what Apostle Paul is talking about "subject to death"

the most common object is, "I performed a church ritual, I do church, I live and breathe church, ur in ch__ch, I should be fine"

but here are two verses, that I highly doubt that you can wrestle against with much success.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Cor 10:12 - So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

and I believe 1 Cor 12:10 is a critical verse for this one, to obey it, we must never think that we are standing firm (sin is still possible), hence, refuting "sinless perfectionism"

Romans 12:3 - be sober-minded

incase if we think that works can fix that problem
consider Isaiah 64:6

Isaiah 64:6 - all our righteous acts are like filthy rags

for trying to work for salvation, this is not looking good

the answer why, is found in 1 Cor 13:3
1 Cor 13:3 - If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.


incase if you want to say, "our heart is holy", consider Jeremiah 17:9
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


I believe that this scripture-based proof is air-tight, straightforward direct proof, unless if you willfully misinterpret them (I hope not)

If for a moment, you allow yourself to assume that this proof is airtight, you'll realize the truth of Matt 19:26
Matt 19:26 - With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

with man, it's impossible for works to achieve salvation,
with God, all things, (including your salvation) is possible

in conclusion, Not by Works, but faith in God's grace

Q.E.D. (in theory, I can rest my case, hopefully the theory that "I can rest my case" can be true)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
unbelieveable isnt it !!!!

Not ONE OF US is worthy of Gods grace

thats why it is defined as " unmerited favor , undeserved favor "
I know and then he told another poster that maybe one can be saved by taking another path.....talk about missing the mark from 2 feet with a sawed off shotgun......wow...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
ben , its our spirit , our inner being thats been born again , but we still live in our sinful flesh , thats why the scriptures say that one born of God cannott sin , because God looks at our spirit , and if we have been born again , he sees Jesus's righteousness , its not ours . Our flesh is weak , and all believers will sin , as much as some dont want to admit that , its the truth
Not one sin can enter Gods heaven , thats why he says " Be ye perfect , as I am perfect "
Can we ever live perfectly in this life , no we cant , we need Jesus's righteousness
AMEN.......truth here for sure.......
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
common ground
- heaven exist
- salvation is important
- humans are capable of "good works"
- the Bible is true <-- agreeing with this one is very important

Scriptures and explanation

Apostle Paul's Lament
Romans 7:24 - What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death

if we put the two together for Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23
both are trying to say "all deserve death"

hence, what Apostle Paul is talking about "subject to death"

the most common object is, "I performed a church ritual, I do church, I live and breathe church, ur in ch__ch, I should be fine"

but here are two verses, that I highly doubt that you can wrestle against with much success.

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Cor 10:12 - So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

and I believe 1 Cor 12:10 is a critical verse for this one, to obey it, we must never think that we are standing firm (sin is still possible), hence, refuting "sinless perfectionism"

Romans 12:3 - be sober-minded

incase if we think that works can fix that problem
consider Isaiah 64:6

Isaiah 64:6 - all our righteous acts are like filthy rags

for trying to work for salvation, this is not looking good

the answer why, is found in 1 Cor 13:3
1 Cor 13:3 - If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.


incase if you want to say, "our heart is holy", consider Jeremiah 17:9
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


I believe that this scripture-based proof is air-tight, straightforward direct proof, unless if you willfully misinterpret them (I hope not)

If for a moment, you allow yourself to assume that this proof is airtight, you'll realize the truth of Matt 19:26
Matt 19:26 - With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

with man, it's impossible for works to achieve salvation,
with God, all things, (including your salvation) is possible

in conclusion, Not by Works, but faith in God's grace

Q.E.D. (in theory, I can rest my case, hopefully the theory that "I can rest my case" can be true)
I wrote my proof, hopefully, case closed
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Romans 7 15-25

15
For what I am doing , I do not understand. For what I will to do , that I do not practice , but what I hate that I do

16
If then , I do what I will not to do , I agree with the law that it is good

17
But now , it is no longer I who do it , but sin that dwells in me

18
For , I know that in me ( that is , in my flesh ) nothing good dwells , for to will is present with me , but how to perform what is good , I do not find

19
For the good that I will to do , I do not do , but the evil I will not to do , that I practice

20
Now , if I do what I will not to do , it is no longer I who do it , but sin that dwells in me

21
I find then a law , that evil is present with me , the one who wills to do good

22
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man

23
But , I see another law in my members , warring against the law of my mind , and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members

24
Oh wretched man that I am . Who will deliver me from this body of death ?

25
I thank God , through Jesus Christ our Lord ! So then , with the mind I myself serve the law of God , but with the flesh , the law of sin

I have always loved that the very first verse of the next chapter is

" There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus , who do not walk according to the flesh , but according to the spirit "

Romans 7 goes on further to explain all this , I love these verses
You hit the nail on the head:
Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Most OSAS people stop at Christ Jesus, and do not include, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Most OSAS people just say "there is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

How bout those who are in Christ Jesus that eventually start not walking in the Spirit, but after the flesh? Do they lose their saved position. The answer is yes, according to John 15:2, and many other scriptures. Read the parable of the forgiving king.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
You hit the nail on the head:
Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Most OSAS people stop at Christ Jesus, and do not include, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Most OSAS people just say "there is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

How bout those who are in Christ Jesus that eventually start not walking in the Spirit, but after the flesh? Do they lose their saved position. The answer is yes, according to John 15:2, and many other scriptures. Read the parable of the forgiving king.
Wrong again....the bolded is false and your accusation above is false......maybe study more and see that the latter part of verse 1 in chapter 8 has been embellished and is not in the original text....and then read John 3:36

It is ONLY the King JAMES that ADDS the second half of verse 1 and Episcopalians BELIEVE is a working for dogma

New International Version
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Study Bible
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus,

Contemporary English Version
If you belong to Christ Jesus, you won't be punished.

Good News Translation
There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,

International Standard Version
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.

NET Bible
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.