Gay & Lesbian inclusivity in the Church

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Y

Yama

Junior Member
#121
Feb 19, 2017
37
8
8
#121
UnderGrace said:
So then you are stating that being gay is natural?

Just trying to understand your words.

Your line of defense is that scripture is not reliable correct?
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My line of defense? I don't think it needs to be a 'line of defense' I think if you're approaching things with a bit of critical literacy than yes you can't take scripture at face value and saying it's the authoritative word of God because someone wrote it in there is pretty basic. - because you have to literally ignore the history of how those books came to be and why the books of the bible are even in there now. Those books weren't written once and once only, they've been added to, had passages removed and even individual phrases and words have been added and removed to suit the churches evolving theologies over time. References to the trinity, the divinity of Christ etc - those things aren't consistent throughout the historical texts. Christians love pointing out the voluminous 'copies' of the NT as proof but never actually appreciate that those copies are incredibly fragmented. Some of which contain only single lines of text, many of them date from the middle ages and the earliest copies are quite different to the later ones- some even have obvious edits where someone else has scrubbed out a verse and written another in. So yes it isn't a reliable, logical or smart way to inform your attitudes towards other people. If you think it is though - by all means continue I guess, but don't be surprised when alot of people just roll their eyes.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#122
#122
Yama said:
My line of defense? I don't think it needs to be a 'line of defense' I think if you're approaching things with a bit of critical literacy than yes you can't take scripture at face value and saying it's the authoritative word of God because someone wrote it in there is pretty basic. - because you have to literally ignore the history of how those books came to be and why the books of the bible are even in there now. Those books weren't written once and once only, they've been added to, had passages removed and even individual phrases and words have been added and removed to suit the churches evolving theologies over time. References to the trinity, the divinity of Christ etc - those things aren't consistent throughout the historical texts. Christians love pointing out the voluminous 'copies' of the NT as proof but never actually appreciate that those copies are incredibly fragmented. Some of which contain only single lines of text, many of them date from the middle ages and the earliest copies are quite different to the later ones- some even have obvious edits where someone else has scrubbed out a verse and written another in. So yes it isn't a reliable, logical or smart way to inform your attitudes towards other people. If you think it is though - by all means continue I guess, but don't be surprised when alot of people just roll their eyes.
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Of course this has to be your narrative about the bible, because as you have said yourself and I quote "if God were real" ......

https://christianchat.com/threads/sex-before-marriage-a-poll.180010/post-3737618
 
Y

Yama

Junior Member
#123
Feb 19, 2017
37
8
8
#123
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#124
#124
Yama said:
Mate, it ain't my narrative - that's the reality of the book. It's the history of it's composition. It didn't just fall from heaven and into your hands as is and unchanged.
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Okay, no one said it fell from heaven, at least keep our narrative straight.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#125
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#125
Before John would immerse anyone he demanded fruit worthy of repentance.....it is from this prepared material that Jesus called OUT his first disciples....while it is true that no one is perfect and we all have failures in some form or fashion, in order for one to assemble rightfully they must be saved and scripturally immersed which requires FRUIT worthy of repentance.

Paul told the Corinthian Assembly to withdraw fellowship from the fornicating brother...not to fellowship with him and allow him the right to assemble.....

There has to be a line somewhere in the sand or the Lord's churches will fall into the unusable category because of blatant open sin......we have to remember that WE represent the LORD in the community and we have a certain level of righteousness and holiness that we MUST show.......it is the Lord's reputation that is on the line......

just saying.....
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#126
#126
dcontroversal said:
Before John would immerse anyone he demanded fruit worthy of repentance.....it is from this prepared material that Jesus called OUT his first disciples....while it is true that no one is perfect and we all have failures in some form or fashion, in order for one to assemble rightfully they must be saved and scripturally immersed which requires FRUIT worthy of repentance.

Paul told the Corinthian Assembly to withdraw fellowship from the fornicating brother...not to fellowship with him and allow him the right to assemble.....

There has to be a line somewhere in the sand or the Lord's churches will fall into the unusable category because of blatant open sin......we have to remember that WE represent the LORD in the community and we have a certain level of righteousness and holiness that we MUST show.......it is the Lord's reputation that is on the line......

just saying.....
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Thank you dcon.... sage understanding:)
 
Y

Yama

Junior Member
#127
Feb 19, 2017
37
8
8
#127
dcontroversal said:
Before John would immerse anyone he demanded fruit worthy of repentance.....it is from this prepared material that Jesus called OUT his first disciples....while it is true that no one is perfect and we all have failures in some form or fashion, in order for one to assemble rightfully they must be saved and scripturally immersed which requires FRUIT worthy of repentance.

Paul told the Corinthian Assembly to withdraw fellowship from the fornicating brother...not to fellowship with him and allow him the right to assemble.....

There has to be a line somewhere in the sand or the Lord's churches will fall into the unusable category because of blatant open sin......we have to remember that WE represent the LORD in the community and we have a certain level of righteousness and holiness that we MUST show.......it is the Lord's reputation that is on the line......

just saying.....
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The dumb thing there is that you think you have to have some level of ritual purity to be an effective agent of good in the world- no wonder churches spend 90% of their time arguing about asinine points of morality and interpretation, do you ever wonder why secular organisations continue to advance humanities well being more efficiently then churches? Is it really 'The Lord's reputation on the line' - because if anything these attitudes paint a much more ridiculous picture of 'God' and show more of the human bias behind the thinking then any link to the divine.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#128
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#128
Yama said:
The dumb thing there is that you think you have to have some level of ritual purity to be an effective agent of good in the world- no wonder churches spend 90% of their time arguing about asinine points of morality and interpretation, do you ever wonder why secular organisations continue to advance humanities well being more efficiently then churches? Is it really 'The Lord's reputation on the line' - because if anything these attitudes paint a much more ridiculous picture of 'God' and show more of the human bias behind the thinking then any link to the divine.
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Do you even know what you are talking about....NOPE....just mouthy comments, blather and bloviated opinion is all you gave us in the above post "MATE".....there is enough idiocy in your post that it would take a page just to address all of it.......
 
1ofthem

1ofthem

Senior Member
#129
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,912
113
#129
Yama said:
The dumb thing there is that you think you have to have some level of ritual purity to be an effective agent of good in the world- no wonder churches spend 90% of their time arguing about asinine points of morality and interpretation, do you ever wonder why secular organisations continue to advance humanities well being more efficiently then churches? Is it really 'The Lord's reputation on the line' - because if anything these attitudes paint a much more ridiculous picture of 'God' and show more of the human bias behind the thinking then any link to the divine.
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Ok dude, I looked at your sight and you are not even a Christian and made some reference to not even believing that God is real... so why are you trying to preach about what God wants and the Bible?

Seriously just asking???
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#130
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#130
1ofthem said:
Ok dude, I looked at your sight and you are not even a Christian and made some reference to not even believing that God is real... so why are you trying to preach about what God wants and the Bible?

Seriously just asking???
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Post 128 covers it........
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#131
#131
Yama said:
The dumb thing there is that you think you have to have some level of ritual purity to be an effective agent of good in the world- no wonder churches spend 90% of their time arguing about asinine points of morality and interpretation, do you ever wonder why secular organisations continue to advance humanities well being more efficiently then churches? Is it really 'The Lord's reputation on the line' - because if anything these attitudes paint a much more ridiculous picture of 'God' and show more of the human bias behind the thinking then any link to the divine.
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I think you missed his point completelyo_O

Neither do you understand the role of the church in society.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#133
#133
1ofthem said:
Ok dude, I looked at your sight and you are not even a Christian and made some reference to not even believing that God is real... so why are you trying to preach about what God wants and the Bible?

Seriously just asking???
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Oh, he has already stated if God exists.... so he has an obvious agenda
 
OneFaith

OneFaith

Senior Member
#134
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#134
MessageOfTheCross said:
Should openly gay, lesbian, and transgender's be allowed to join the Church? What is your biblical views on this topic?

Note: I am not speaking about marriage.
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Only God can add people to His church, and it is up to Him whether or not to disfellowship- so scripture must say so. Hearing preaching against sin is where a sinner needs to be. However, there are a list of specific sins that are a cause for disfellowship- homosexuality being one of them. Therefore they can come to church, but not to potluck "with such a one do not even eat." They can be among us but not be one of us until they repent (make a u-turn away from that sin).
 
Y

Yama

Junior Member
#135
Feb 19, 2017
37
8
8
#135
UnderGrace said:
Oh, he has already stated if God exists.... so he has an obvious agenda
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I don't see what's wrong with being somewhat agnostic about it, if you have definite evidence that God as you define it exists you're welcome to go and show the world and collect your prize - but you don't ultimately all you have is bible versus written by people across thousands of years in the same position as you. Themselves no more informed than anyone today on the answer to that question. That is why I say if. I don't think it's impossible for a god or something recognizable as a god to exist - but ultimately I do not know nor does anyone else, so I am saying if. You're getting very hung up on that. I don't understand what your problem is with other peoples take on the question of God. There are such things as Agnostic Christians - people who think Jesus had a point- but aren't sold on the supernatural claims which by definition cannot be proven.
 
OneFaith

OneFaith

Senior Member
#136
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#136
Yama said:
I don't see what's wrong with being somewhat agnostic about it, if you have definite evidence that God as you define it exists you're welcome to go and show the world and collect your prize - but you don't ultimately all you have is bible versus written by people across thousands of years in the same position as you. Themselves no more informed than anyone today on the answer to that question. That is why I say if. I don't think it's impossible for a god or something recognizable as a god to exist - but ultimately I do not know nor does anyone else, so I am saying if. You're getting very hung up on that. I don't understand what your problem is with other peoples take on the question of God. There are such things as Agnostic Christians - people who think Jesus had a point- but aren't sold on the supernatural claims which by definition cannot be proven.
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Do you believe in right and wrong? If good and evil exist, God and Satan exist.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#137
Jul 18, 2017
24,503
12,955
113
#137
Lillywolf said:
God doesn't block the entry into a church by all sinners. Were that actually true there would not be one church with a butt in the seat.
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Why are you confusing two things -- visiting a church with entering into the Kingdom of God?

Everyone is welcome to attend any evangelical or fundamentalist church, but only those who have been saved by grace and baptized as believers can become members. And only those who are consistent Christians in their walk can serve in any ministry.

Homosexuals can visit all the churches in their cities all year long, and they will be welcomed as VISITORS. But God only welcomes repentant sinners into His family. and only repentant sinners become members of Bible-believing churches.
 
Y

Yama

Junior Member
#138
Feb 19, 2017
37
8
8
#138
Well address it
dcontroversal said:
Do you even know what you are talking about....NOPE....just mouthy comments, blather and bloviated opinion is all you gave us in the above post "MATE".....there is enough idiocy in your post that it would take a page just to address all of it.......
Click to expand...
,
Feel free to address it, my only point is that the sexual orientation of any individual shouldn't make a difference as to whether or not you include them in a community. Using the bible as justification for doing so is fallacious and ignorant. It simply highlights the prejudices of those who do so. And, in that case who would actually want to be part of a community that advocates for the exclusion of others over such trivial things.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#139
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#139
yama,
you are so very pitiful, and we mean this in such a sorrowful way, for you are in total bondage to
satanic powers, and evidently have 'opened your door' and given yourself over to his perverted ways...

we, who Love Jesus Christ are praying for your 'deliverance and healing...
 
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