Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Here is my take on the Parable of the Sower. Only the GOOD SOIL is a Real Born Again Christian, and the Rocky Soil and the Thorn Infested Soil are those that Fall Away, because they NEVER PRODUCE A HARVEST of LOVE FOR HIM. They were NEVER BORN AGAIN.
Her is a Link to it: #74,648 , just click on the numbers.

They Art the Ones how think they are Christians, but find HE SAYS "I NEVER KNEW YOU":

Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[.They did those deeds with a WRONG MOTIVE in their Heart, it has to be purely LOVE FOR HIM.]
23 Then I will announce to them, I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

He is referring to true Repentance and receiving HIM genuinely,
in an Inner, Personal, LOVE Relationship as your LORD, meaning MASTER.

Therefore that IS what Born Again, actually IS, when the HOLY SPIRIT Births our Human Spirit into ETERNAL LIFE.

That is why this verse in 1 John is ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
Thank you for sharing your views on this matter, I appreciate it.


My view on the other hand is that when a farmer plants or sows seeds into his field, he expects them to grow in more or less than four months before he harvests them.


If the seed sown is a fruit tree, fruits are expected after some years of growth. If a tree does not bear fruit, scripture tells us that it is cut down and burned (used as firewood).(Luke 3:9)


We know that seeds need to be watered, need sunlight, care and attention for them to grow.


In the same way, salvation goes to a process of growth and maturity.


Salvation through justification is the first step and it’s the process of cultivation which prepares the land soil before sowing the seeds. This is when believers are forgiven of their sins, washed clean and reconciled to God. Justification gives life to a once DEAD in sin person (Romans 5:18). In the same way that a farmer do not sow fresh seeds.( hope you know what I mean since I am not a farmer) Man has no part in Justification. Let man give all the glory to God the Father and His only begotten son, our LORD Jesus Christ.


After cultivating the land, the seeds are sown, watered and grown. This is the process of salvation through sanctification. Believers receive the WORD of truth in which the WORD is the Spirit.(john 1:1-3 & 14, 6:63, 14:17, 15:26, 17:17, 2 Corinthians 3:17)). Believers receive the Holy Spirit through FAITH, (Galatians 3:14) giving them the power to obey God.


So in my view, Sanctification is the salvation process wherein believers grow in their FAITH and live by the Spirit. It is when we do the works God had before ordained for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10), to walk in LOVE.(2 john 1:6) and bear fruits of the Spirit (galatians 5:22). It is when obedience leads to righteousness which leads to holiness and the result is eternal life.(Romans 6:16-22)


This is my view and I believe that.. “OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVE.”(Romans 13:11)


…. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.(1 Corinthians 6:9-11)


...“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”(John 4:34-38)


... Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.(1 Corinthians 3:1-9)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
If the seed sown is a fruit tree, fruits are expected after some years of growth. If a tree does not bear fruit, scripture tells us that it is cut down and burned (used as firewood).(Luke 3:9)
AFTER a few years of dunging the tree, tilling up around the tree and fertilizing the tree......and even fruit trees grow numerous years before even 1 piece of fruit is produced....and lest we forget...an apple tree is an apple tree from the MOMENT is sprouts from a seed LONG before it produces......the produce DOES not MAKE it the type of tree it ALREADY IS by BIRTH (sprouting)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
oh, by the way, you judeaizers need to come up with a new formula. this one is getting old and predictable.

you guys all do the same thing, show up, seem to just want to have friendly conversation. then you start saying " we should obey God , right" . then you say " obeying God means obeying the Law " . then you end up at keeping the Sabbath for salvation.

now, you have not got to the Sabbath yet, sorry I jumped ahead, but, now you can just go ahead and go there, and push that lie along with the rest.
"do this and this and this ((or else)) because it's the Law" is not supportable as having accepted the gospel.
that doesn't mean '
don't do this or this or this' or that it's fine to do the opposite. it means they need to find a different argument to spur one another to good works, because the one they are using is a perversion of the gospel.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
That's crazy.
Everybody is disobedient at times. Perfection exists only in heaven.
This gets into sin. Everybody sins but some believe that saying this encourages sinning.
It's a whole different discussion.

The point is that we have to understand that God demands obedience.
If I say this and I get persons not agreeing and even being sarcastic with me, it must surely mean they don't believe it's necessary.

Being obedient is a necessary ingredient to being in the Kingdom, here.
Of course we miss the mark many times but that is our goal.
The goal can't be NOT to be obedient.

So I'm told by some that I'm wrong and that no one here says we should sin.

Then why do they debate if they agree!
Goal setting to being in the Kingdom, what a travesty to use those words in light of the cross.:(
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
In regards to the believer's ongoing sanctification, in Philippians 2:12, we read - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. This verse often gets misinterpreted by works-salvationists to mean "work for" your salvation, yet works salvation is not being taught here. The idea is to progress towards the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity in the process of ongoing sanctification. It should be noted that Philippians 2:12 makes it clear we are to be active, not passive, in this process. However, though we are active, we are not alone.
Vernon McGee told the story of a little girl who on hearing this verse, remarked to her mother that you can't work something out unless it's first been worked in :)
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
People who do not believe Christ did it all, and that their works do not attribute to their salvation (other than evidence of conversion) are unconverted. Why? Because they have not believed, and more specifically they have not believed the good news.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
The Christ, who you claim has made you immortal,
amen :)

Jesus said to her,
I AM the Resurrection and the Life.
The one who believes in Me will live, even though they die;
and whoever lives by believing in Me will never die.
Do you believe this?
(John 11:25-26)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
says "Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" and you are silent.
who's silent?

For I am confident of this very thing:
that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus!
(Philippians 1:6)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
I'm here to point out the glaring fact that much of todays religions have rejected and omitted many of the Christ's Words, just as the Mainstream preachers of Christ's time omitted much of God's Words. They "thought" they were saved, but they were not.
maybe we're here to point out to you that you're omitting chunks of scripture, yourself. the Word also says, you who judge, do you not do the very same things? i've met a lot of people in my life who thought they had gone somewhere to teach or to do, only to find out later they actually had been pulled by the nose there to learn or to have done. i've been that dude 1,000 times, too.

is it true that you do not believe you have eternal life?
i.e. you are not saved?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
This is the reason for God's Sabbaths
Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:12

He explicitly gave Israel His sabbaths as a sign between them so that they would know it is He who sanctifies them.

as in, not they who sanctify themselves. be still. do no work. don't travel. don't kindle fire. depend on Him.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Welcome back Fran--->[email protected] ....try not to lose your mind this time and get banned.....and I will again say....FAITH blended with anything to gain, keep, embellish or top off salvation = a false gospel with no power to save.........why are you removed from the simplicity that is found in Christ unto a foolish, bewitched way that has no power??
I knew it....woman's intuition and the more than obvious same written expression:sneaky:
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
I understand the Mainstream interpretation of this scripture. What I question is your understanding of the term "Made Holy". If I am laden with sins, I am not Holy. I can't be Holy. For the Christ to "make me Holy" He must first remove those sins. That is what atonement is all about. Once I have my past sins removed, I am "FREE" to SERVE GOD. The Bible does not teach that the Christ "Serves God" for me. That is man's religion, not God's.

Hebrew 'kaphar' translated usually "atonement" literally means "covering"
same word as the pitch sealant 'covering' the ark.

it doesn't mean "removal"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
... Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.(1 Corinthians 3:1-9)

"but God, who makes things grow"
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
So in my view, Sanctification is the salvation process wherein believers grow in their FAITH and live by the Spirit. It is when we do the works God had before ordained for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10), to walk in LOVE.(2 john 1:6) and bear fruits of the Spirit (galatians 5:22). It is when obedience leads to righteousness which leads to holiness and the result is eternal life.(Romans 6:16-22)

This is my view and I believe that.. “OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVE.”(Romans 13:11)
Hi Argueless, the salvation the Apostle Paul is speaking of here is the fulfillment of all things, we were saved the moment we believed in the Son of God. And we were "sealed" with the promise of the Holy Spirit. If you misinterpret a passage of scripture you will unfortunately form a wrong application which is not a good thing to do.

Our Eternal Salvation happens the moment we believe and anything contrary is a counterfeit gospel.

Galatians3:2,3
2)
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3) Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Romans8:19
For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.

Ephesians1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1Peter1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans13:11: Commentary
knowing that it is high time for you to awake out of sleep (more literally, that it is the hour for you to be already roused out of sleep); for now is our salvation nearer (or, now is salvation nearer to us. The salvation here meant is "the restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21), the "manifestation of the sons of God" (Romans 8:19), "the regeneration" (Matthew 19:28), the "gathering together in one of all things in Christ," (Ephesians 1:10), which is yet to come) than when we believed (i.e. than when we first became believers; cf. Acts 19:2; 1 Corinthians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:2; Galatians 2:16. Time has been gradually advancing since then, bringing the consummation we look for ever nearer). The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore put off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Hebrew 'kaphar' translated usually "atonement" literally means "covering"
same word as the pitch sealant 'covering' the ark.


it doesn't mean "removal"
AMEN.....When I see the blood I will pass over you....he has no concept of the blood COVERING US and the FREE IMPUTATION of the righteousness of Christ dia faith because of grace......
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
"but God, who makes things grow"
AMEN........of course MOST Cainologists MUST help and or offer their "bestest" effort and toil.....just like Cain.........and then wonder why they will not be received........

LORD, LORD, Did we NOT do MANY WONDERFUL WORKS in your NAME...........

I NEVER KNEW YOU is as clear as can be......they attempted a different door than Christ
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
AMEN.....When I see the blood I will pass over you....he has no concept of the blood COVERING US and the FREE IMPUTATION of the righteousness of Christ dia faith because of grace......
it's not merely having been covered - dude says, his 'former sins' - as though Christ must be crucified again. but He more than covered us in His blood: He also rose. the Lord said, our sins He will cast from us as far as east from west. this is different than atonement; removing is more than covering over. He grants that we die with Him, and be raised a new creature, as Paul says, circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing, but what matters is a new creation. one whom sin no longer has any mastery over. if sin is truly made powerless, it is not only our sin before we heard and believed that He died for, but all of them - able to present us pure and spotless :)
ceasing to believe that He has died, and we with Him, that He has risen, cleansing and perfecting us forever - is this not failing to endure in the faith? is such unbelief not disobedience to the gospel?
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Hi Argueless, the salvation the Apostle Paul is speaking of here is the fulfillment of all things, we were saved the moment we believed in the Son of God. And we were "sealed" with the promise of the Holy Spirit. If you misinterpret a passage of scripture you will unfortunately form a wrong application which is not a good thing to do.

Our Eternal Salvation happens the moment we believe and anything contrary is a counterfeit gospel.

Galatians3:2,3
2)
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3) Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Romans8:19
For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.

Ephesians1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1Peter1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans13:11: Commentary
knowing that it is high time for you to awake out of sleep (more literally, that it is the hour for you to be already roused out of sleep); for now is our salvation nearer (or, now is salvation nearer to us. The salvation here meant is "the restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21), the "manifestation of the sons of God" (Romans 8:19), "the regeneration" (Matthew 19:28), the "gathering together in one of all things in Christ," (Ephesians 1:10), which is yet to come) than when we believed (i.e. than when we first became believers; cf. Acts 19:2; 1 Corinthians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:2; Galatians 2:16. Time has been gradually advancing since then, bringing the consummation we look for ever nearer). The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore put off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Thanks anyway, but I will fear God and keep and obey His commandments as taught by a man inspired by God and whose wisdom is better than mine and i will live up to what i already attained as taught by the apostle Paul

Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
Ecclesiastes 12:13‭-‬14

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Philippians 3:12‭-‬16
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
it's not merely having been covered - dude says, his 'former sins' - as though Christ must be crucified again. but He more than covered us in His blood: He also rose. the Lord said, our sins He will cast from us as far as east from west. this is different than atonement; removing is more than covering over. He grants that we die with Him, and be raised a new creature, as Paul says, circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing, but what matters is a new creation. one whom sin no longer has any mastery over. if sin is truly made powerless, it is not only our sin before we heard and believed that He died for, but all of them - able to present us pure and spotless :)
ceasing to believe that He has died, and we with Him, that He has risen, cleansing and perfecting us forever - is this not failing to endure in the faith? is such unbelief not disobedience to the gospel?
Of course brother and I agree.......
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
I see we have another faux law and commandment keeper in our midst......NO one keeps the law nor is there anyone who obeys the commandments of God........exactly why the LAW condemns and POINTS to the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST imputed by faith without the DEED/WORKS of the law.....break the least = guilty of the whole <--ALL are in this boat!!

More P.T. Barnisms......