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BaptistBibleBeliever

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I just posted this in a different thread (different subject), but believe it could be taken into consideration under the discussion of Calvinism:

Then there's also this context to consider:

"And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room." Lk14:22
Using what I see as the logic of Calvinism, Irresistible grace means that those 'called' or 'elected' can not refuse. They are fond of taking verses out of context to prove their point--such as applying passages under law to situations under grace.

"Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper" (Luke 14:16-24).

In your use of Luke 14 I don't think you are going far enough. For here we have the 'certain man' . . . and of course that refers to the Father in heaven because they all do, right? And he calls for the elect to come, but they don't.

They exercised their free choice in the matter and said no . . .

God gets mad because he sovereignty was challenged, so then he issues an universal call to all that will come. Kind of nips Calvinism right in the bud, to quote Deputy Sheriff Barney Fife.

Case closed.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ That's pretty much the point I am making.


However, no Calvinist on this discussion board has yet looked into what I've presented [several times] (Scripture) to see if these things be so...
 

BaptistBibleBeliever

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If you ask me, it seems they are choosing "only so much human reasoning," rather than examining the Scriptures offered [repeatedly]. ;)
Well, when their teachers tell them that English words can be changed at will . . . it becomes difficult to convince them of anything. Amazing that for 42 years I believe that the world in John 3:16 meant the world (I STILL DO!) but over the past week or so I've been told that it really means 'the elect', but it still means world in the other places.

And they take that as an ABSOLUTE ESSENTIAL ARTICLE OF FAITH!

Someone has 'blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them' (John 12:40).

Note that 'converted' can be used both for 'salvation' and 'correction.'
 

Hevosmies

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Well, when their teachers tell them that English words can be changed at will . . . it becomes difficult to convince them of anything. Amazing that for 42 years I believe that the world in John 3:16 meant the world (I STILL DO!) but over the past week or so I've been told that it really means 'the elect', but it still means world in the other places.

And they take that as an ABSOLUTE ESSENTIAL ARTICLE OF FAITH!

Someone has 'blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them' (John 12:40).

Note that 'converted' can be used both for 'salvation' and 'correction.'
John 3:16 means world of the elect, OK. Lets concede that.

But what does the calvinist do with

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Oy vey! Now the calvinist is in trouble. The verse says he is the propitiation for OUR sins. Now who would the OUR be here? Would that be the elect? Ok. But then it says not for ours only but for the WHOLE WORLD as well. Now if the OUR is elect, is the WHOLE WORLD also elect?
Confusing!

The only way you can read that as a calvinist is to ADD to the verse. (again, like in 1 timothy 2:4)
He is teh propitiation for our sins (elect) and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (of the elect).
 

Hevosmies

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I don't concede that, and see no reason why you should either.
Only for the sake of argument i was making. If world means elect, or world of the elect, or anything similar to that.
It would make a mess out of 1 john 2:2

that was my point :)
 

BaptistBibleBeliever

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Got it!

Also, Love not the elect! neither the things that are of the elect. If any man love the elect, the love of the Father is not in him.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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John 3:16 means world of the elect, OK. Lets concede that.

But what does the calvinist do with

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Oy vey! Now the calvinist is in trouble. The verse says he is the propitiation for OUR sins. Now who would the OUR be here? Would that be the elect? Ok. But then it says not for ours only but for the WHOLE WORLD as well. Now if the OUR is elect, is the WHOLE WORLD also elect?
Confusing!

The only way you can read that as a calvinist is to ADD to the verse. (again, like in 1 timothy 2:4)
He is teh propitiation for our sins (elect) and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (of the elect).

The "whole world" in that verse represents not just the Christian world but would include any religious organization as kingdoms of this world. Christ's sacrifice was just as sufficient for a Atheism, Buddhism . Judaism, Calavanisim, Lutherism, Catholicism etc. All of the ism's.

In the same way Satan deceives the whole world not just atheism .

The key as those elected is "as many". Not one more or one less. They will come and because God is drawing them he will not cast them out as if he could not finish the work to the end as promised in Philippians 1:6.

John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Got it!

Also, Love not the elect! neither the things that are of the elect. If any man love the elect, the love of the Father is not in him.
The father loves the elect. They are the as many he gave to His Son. Not one more or less. Don't worry as the better things that accompany salvation (Hebrews 6) he will not forget the love you have offered towards his name( authority to believe) if you have not offered towards your own. That would be like the man or example in Mathew 7, that Christ called a worker of iniquity. He never knew them .
 

TheDivineWatermark

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John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
garee, did you happen to see the post I made awhile back, on John 17 (in view of John 6:44)??

Anyway... "You have given Me" [or, "have given Him"] is stated something like 9x in chpt 17, and 4 or 5x of those it is referring to specific persons; and then there's verse 20.

Take a look at this post, and pay special attention to the part on John 17 :

[quoting my previous post]

Acts 3 [blb]-

22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up to you a prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you. 23 And it will be that every soul who might not heed that prophet will be utterly destroyed out from the people.’
24 And also all the prophets from Samuel, and those subsequently, as many as have spoken, also have proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up His servant [that is, in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death], sent Him first to you, blessing you in turning away each of you from your wickednesses.”

[and verse 19 had said, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And He shall send Jesus Christ... Whom..." etc]


[Matt10:5-7 had said, "5 These twelve, Jesus sent forth, having instructed them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans. 6But go rather to those being the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And going on, proclaim, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near!’ (this is not what is to be proclaimed presently [in "this present age [singular]"], but will again in the future trib, in slightly differing phrasing) ]


John 12:32-33 [blb] -

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.” 33 Now He was saying this, signifying by what death He was about to die. [compare this with your John 6:44 verse]


John 6:41-58 [blb] - [dialogue with skeptical inquiring multitude (vv.24-29), that though they'd seen Him, still did not believe (v.36) ]

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him because He said, “I am the bread having come down from heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble with one another. 44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the one having sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught of God.’ Everyone having heard from the Father and having learned, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One being from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one believing has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died. 50 This is the bread coming down from heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread, having come down from heaven. If anyone shall have eaten of this bread, he will live to the age. And also, the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
52 Therefore the Jews were arguing with one another, saying, “How is this man able to give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Therefore Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and shall have drunk His blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one feeding on Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread having come down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. The one eating this bread will live to the age.”


[the key issue all through is: faith or lack of faith - Jn6:29, 35, 40, 47, 64, and He symbolizes faith as appropriating/eating/drinking Himself - Jn6:35, 51, 53, 58; and then in JOHN 7:17 He emphasized the human response factor: "17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself."]


John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end of that post]