A place for rapture questions

[TheDivineWatermark]

But look at the earlier verses:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

^this lets us know its at the second coming. Imo!

Agreed!

...and this verse you point out parallels Matthew 19:28 (which parallels others):

"28 And Jesus said unto them [speaking to the 12], Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." [this takes place IN the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. "the age [singular] to come"]

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is a typical sample of gobbligook and scripture twisting beloved by Pre Rapture pundits. There is not one verse
in scripture that endorses the idea that Christ returns twice. Throughout scripture and Church history up until the 19th Century
there is no firm evidence of any notable widespread belief in a pre tribulation rapture. The Didache which is a first century document
records the belief on the subject by the early church. The relevant section states as follows.....

Be watchful over your life, never let your lamps go out or your loins be ungirt but keep your selves always in
readiness for you can never be sure of the hour when our Lord may be coming. Come often together for spiritual
improvement because all of your past years of your faith will be no good to you at the end, unless you have made yourself perfect. In the last days of the world false prophets and deceivers will abound sheep will be perverted and turn into wolves and love will change
to hate, for with the growth of lawlessness men will hate their fellows and persecute them and betray them. Then the deceiver of the world will show himself pretending to be a Son of God and doing signs and wonders and the earth will be delivered into his hands and he will work such wickedness as there has never been since the beginning After that all humankind will come up for their fiery trial multitudes of them will stumble and perish but such as remain steadfast in the faith will be saved by the curse*. And then the signs of the truth will appear first the sign of the opening heavens next the sign of the trumpets voice and thirdly the rising of the dead, not of all the dead , but as it says the Lord will come and with him all his holy ones And then the whole world will see the Lord as he comes riding on the clouds of heaven.

" 'The Curse' is believed to be a reference to Galatians 3:13 where it says Christ was made a curse for us.

The Didache section 2 part 16 From Early Christian Writings by Penguin Classics

There is no mention here of a two stage coming to whisk Christians away before the tribulation. Rather it maintains that
the fiery trial will test peoples faith

Hello Tanakh,

The on-going problem that you and others have, is one, not recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events. And two, you continue to ignore the biggest road block of all, which by making the gathering of church as taking place at the same time when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you put the living church through the entire wrath of God.

Though many claim Christ, when it comes to actually believing what Jesus did for us and what our present status is with God, you and others show that you truly don't believe. For when we received Christ we were credited with righteousness (Rom.4:23) and have been reconciled to God (Rom.5:10). Yet, you believe that the Lord is going to send His bride/church through His wrath first. And speaking of this coming wrath, because you also don't understand the severity and magnitude of it, you believe that the Lord is going to protect His church in the midst of it. That time period is going to be like no other with the majority of the population decimated and all human government dismantled. There will hardly be anyone left alive by the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, yet you believe that the church will be protected in the midst of it, even though the church is never mentioned with the narrative of God's wrath.

We, the church, His bride, cannot and will not go through the time period of God's time of unprecedented wrath regardless of what you and others believe. This coming wrath, the long prophesied "Day of the Lord" will be upon the wicked, the arrogant, the prideful, those who have continued to reject salvation through Jesus Christ.

The promise in John 14:1-3 to go and prepare places in the Father's house for all believers and to come back and gather us to take us there (I Thess.4:13-18), will take place prior to God's time of wrath, not after.

You and others have failed to recognize and explain how the bride/church is shown to already be in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean as described in Rev.19:6-8. And then in verse 14 the bride is shown to be wearing that same fine linen and following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses, as the Lord descends upon the earth to vanquish the beast, false prophet and all of those kings and their armies who will have gathered against the Lord and His army.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is a typical sample of gobbligook and scripture twisting beloved by Pre Rapture pundits. There is not one verse
in scripture that endorses the idea that Christ returns twice. Throughout scripture and Church history up until the 19th Century
there is no firm evidence of any notable widespread belief in a pre tribulation rapture. The Didache which is a first century document
records the belief on the subject by the early church. The relevant section states as follows.....

Be watchful over your life, never let your lamps go out or your loins be ungirt but keep your selves always in
readiness for you can never be sure of the hour when our Lord may be coming. Come often together for spiritual
improvement because all of your past years of your faith will be no good to you at the end, unless you have made yourself perfect. In the last days of the world false prophets and deceivers will abound sheep will be perverted and turn into wolves and love will change
to hate, for with the growth of lawlessness men will hate their fellows and persecute them and betray them. Then the deceiver of the world will show himself pretending to be a Son of God and doing signs and wonders and the earth will be delivered into his hands and he will work such wickedness as there has never been since the beginning After that all humankind will come up for their fiery trial multitudes of them will stumble and perish but such as remain steadfast in the faith will be saved by the curse*. And then the signs of the truth will appear first the sign of the opening heavens next the sign of the trumpets voice and thirdly the rising of the dead, not of all the dead , but as it says the Lord will come and with him all his holy ones And then the whole world will see the Lord as he comes riding on the clouds of heaven.

" 'The Curse' is believed to be a reference to Galatians 3:13 where it says Christ was made a curse for us.

The Didache section 2 part 16 From Early Christian Writings by Penguin Classics

There is no mention here of a two stage coming to whisk Christians away before the tribulation. Rather it maintains that
the fiery trial will test peoples faith

In addition to my previous post, Paul, after giving a detailed account of the gathering of the church, he then says regarding this event "Therefore, comfort each other with these words."

For you and others who believe and teach that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, you are neither comforting us nor unbelievers with your words, because instead of being gathered and kept out of the time of God's wrath, you would have us going through it. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the entire world will be exposed to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then the promise to come and take us back to the Father's house must take place prior to said wrath, not after.

 

[tanakh]

In addition to my previous post, Paul, after giving a detailed account of the gathering of the church, he then says regarding this event "Therefore, comfort each other with these words."

For you and others who believe and teach that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, you are neither comforting us nor unbelievers with your words, because instead of being gathered and kept out of the time of God's wrath, you would have us going through it. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the entire world will be exposed to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then the promise to come and take us back to the Father's house must take place prior to said wrath, not after.

So according to you its ok for the church to escape the tribulation but any righteous Christ believing Jew has to go through Armageddon
and wait for Christ to appear at the mount of Olives as described in Zechariah to be counted as part of the believing remnant.

Another group is the 144000 who seem to go through the tribulation together with Nations whose people Christ separates into sheep and Goats at his second coming. In order to explain this parable and the wheat and tares parable which is along similar lines you have to invent a separate group of people called'' Tribulation saints'' a phrase that is not found anywhere in Scripture in order to explain who these people are that are still on earth during all the tribulation period when the church has supposedly been raptured before it starts.

Paul talks about the rapture and the gathering together., He certainly doesnt say it happens before a seven year tribulation period. The rapture happens at the second coming. We meet Christ in the air and we will escort him back to earth. His point of arrival is the Mount of Olives and from there he defeats the Antichrist and the Nations surrounding Jerusalem at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Absolutely]

Can you clarify WHICH verse you are referring to here ^ ?

At the time of His Second Coming to the earth (Matt13, for example), it is the TARES that are "removed" (if you care to use that word), but "the righteous" are not lifted off of and away from the earth, they remain and "fill [active] the whole earth"... just as in Noah's day. [exact OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to that of our Rapture, by the way]

["My barn" = the earthly MK age to come]

The tares in the parable are gathered with the wheat and separated.
Harvested together. That is the last resurrection. 2nd death

 

[Absolutely]

So according to you its ok for the church to escape the tribulation but any righteous Christ believing Jew has to go through Armageddon
and wait for Christ to appear at the mount of Olives as described in Zechariah to be counted as part of the believing remnant.

Another group is the 144000 who seem to go through the tribulation together with Nations whose people Christ separates into sheep and Goats at his second coming. In order to explain this parable and the wheat and tares parable which is along similar lines you have to invent a separate group of people called'' Tribulation saints'' a phrase that is not found anywhere in Scripture in order to explain who these people are that are still on earth during all the tribulation period when the church has supposedly been raptured before it starts.

Paul talks about the rapture and the gathering together., He certainly doesnt say it happens before a seven year tribulation period. The rapture happens at the second coming. We meet Christ in the air and we will escort him back to earth. His point of arrival is the Mount of Olives and from there he defeats the Antichrist and the Nations surrounding Jerusalem at the battle of Armageddon.

The 144k are firstfruit Jews. They are here during part of the gt. ...In rev 14 they are in heaven and see Jesus come to earth in the clouds to harvest the Jews. It is there in rev 14

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The tares in the parable are gathered with the wheat and separated.
Harvested together. That is the last resurrection. 2nd death

It seems to me that "wheat" and "tares" are things that are still living, at the time they are "harvested" [by angels / the harvesters in this Matt13 passage]… and what do you do with the directive where they are told to "gather ye FIRST the tares, and bind them into bundles IN ORDER TO burn them" (this sounds like the same SEQUENCE as found in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] which parallels Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20 [@His Second Coming to the earth, then followed by the "many days" of the phrase "and after many days shall they be punished" in Isa24:22, i.e. the GWTj]).

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/13-30.htm

I don't see a "resurrection" in either passage of Matthew 13:30,39,40,49-50 (but all "still-living" persons) and Matthew 25:31-34 and context (which passages I see as being somewhat parallel, time-wise). Though I DO believe there will be a "resurrection" at that time slot (per Dan12:13 [OT saints] and Rev20:4b [Trib saints who DIED in the trib years]), these other two passages do not speak of it.

By contrast, the GWTj passage in Rev20 (keeping in mind that all saints of all other time periods, who had physically died [of course], were resurrected FOR [or even BEFORE, in the case of "the CWIHB" (us)] the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, NONE left out, ALL present and accounted for, there!)… the GWTj passage in Rev20 involves "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times.

 

[Absolutely]

It seems to me that "wheat" and "tares" are things that are still living, at the time they are "harvested" [by angels / the harvesters in this Matt13 passage]… and what do you do with the directive where they are told to "gather ye FIRST the tares, and bind them into bundles IN ORDER TO burn them" (this sounds like the same SEQUENCE as found in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] which parallels Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20 [@His Second Coming to the earth, then followed by the "many days" of the phrase "and after many days shall they be punished" in Isa24:22, i.e. the GWTj]).

I don't see a "resurrection" in either passage of Matthew 13:30,39,40,49-50 (but all "still-living" persons) and Matthew 25:31-34 and context (which passages I see as being somewhat parallel, time-wise). Though I DO believe there will be a "resurrection" at that time slot (per Dan12:13 [OT saints] and Rev20:4b [Trib saints who DIED in the trib years]), these other two passages do not speak of it.

By contrast, the GWTj passage in Rev20 (keeping in mind that all saints of all other time periods, who had physically died [of course], were resurrected FOR [or even BEFORE, in the case of "the CWIHB"] the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, NONE left out, ALL present and accounted for, there!)… the GWTj passage in Rev20 involves "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times.

All parables leave things out. None are all encompassing truths.
Only one place is the devil or anybody burned.
Unless you can show me different

 

[Absolutely]

Agreed!

...and this verse you point out parallels Matthew 19:28 (which parallels others):

"28 And Jesus said unto them [speaking to the 12], Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." [this takes place IN the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. "the age [singular] to come"]

Yes he does

 

[Absolutely]

But look at the earlier verses:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

^this lets us know its at the second coming. Imo!

Jesus is answering 3 questions.
He is not answering in order or offering which is which

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

All parables leave things out. None are all encompassing truths.
Only one place is the devil or anybody burned.
Unless you can show me different

I did try to show you in this post of mine (not sure if I edited it after you grabbed it or not)… try reading it again closely.

I'm pointing out how Matthew 13:30 seems to parallel Isaiah 24:21-22[/Rev19:19/16:14-16] (at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth). "...IN ORDER TO burn them" being parallel to the TWO words of "punish" in Isaiah 24:21-22 which are separated by the MK time period ("and after many days shall they be punished" [2nd usage of a "punish" word in that text]).

 

[Hevosmies]

Jesus is answering 3 questions.
He is not answering in order or offering which is which

What were the three questions and where?

 

[tanakh]

The 144k are firstfruit Jews. They are here during part of the gt. ...In rev 14 they are in heaven and see Jesus come to earth in the clouds to harvest the Jews. It is there in rev 14[/Q

In Rev 6 people are hiding in the rocks from the wrath of the Lamb. In Rev 7 we are told that the 144000 are sealed immediately after.
From reading these passages and then reading in Rev 14 they are not in heaven but on earth with Christ the Lamb on Mount Zion
If they were in heaven at the second coming they would be coming back with him not watching him go.

 

[Absolutely]

In Rev 6 people are hiding in the rocks from the wrath of the Lamb. In Rev 7 we are told that the 144000 are sealed immediately after.
From reading these passages and then reading in Rev 14 they are not in heaven but on earth with Christ the Lamb on Mount Zion
If they were in heaven at the second coming they would be coming back with him not watching him go.

Read it again;


3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

There they are,in heaven.
That is WHY they are firstfruits. They precede the main body of Jews raptured later in the same chapter.

Ever wonder why they are firstfruits?
Frirstfruit Jews AFTER the dispensation of grace to the gentiles.
"Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles till the time of the gentiles is complete"

 

[Absolutely]

What were the three questions and where?

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you

One of the reasons it is clear the " one taken" is the rapture is that Jesus begins that concept with Noah intering the ark preflood,and ends it with " watch for my coming"
It has to be the rapture.
No way is he telling millions with the mark to watch for his coming,nor did any wicked enter the ark. Not to mention Jesus places that concept in a peaceful setting...."Marying,working,and sleeping"

" one taken" is pretrib....according to Jesus.

...and...as always....remember...you heard it here first...LOL.

 

[Absolutely]

I did try to show you in this post of mine (not sure if I edited it after you grabbed it or not)… try reading it again closely.

I'm pointing out how Matthew 13:30 seems to parallel Isaiah 24:21-22[/Rev19:19/16:14-16] (at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth). "...IN ORDER TO burn them" being parallel to the TWO words of "punish" in Isaiah 24:21-22 which are separated by the MK time period ("and after many days shall they be punished" [2nd usage of a "punish" word in that text]).

I am basically taken the "known givens" and building from there. It is like trying to discern mat 24 with out acknowledging Jesus is answering 3 questions.
I am open to any verses. They need systematic application is all i am sayin.

I have yet to see anything fit like pretrib rapture doctrine. It is uncanny how 90 to 99% fits vs almost zero of other views.
Uncanny....

 

[tanakh]

Read it again;


3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

There they are,in heaven.
That is WHY they are firstfruits. They precede the main body of Jews raptured later in the same chapter.

Ever wonder why they are firstfruits?
Frirstfruit Jews AFTER the dispensation of grace to the gentiles.
"Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles till the time of the gentiles is complete"

How many raptures do you think there are? You now have at least two Jewish raptures and on Gentile one.
At Armageddon who do you think Christ does battle with in and around Jerusalem if not armies consisting of Gentiles treading it down?

Revelation uses symbolism based squarely on the OT. Visions are used to describe spiritual realities. They are not meant to be taken
literally. The prophets had visions such as Pots and Scrolls flying in the air. Do you suggest they were literally doing so?

The whole dispensationalist interpretation relies heavily on the eisegesis used by Darby and his followers it is cultic
and very similar to the methods used by Jehovah Witnesses who also claim to have the ''true'' interpretation of Scripture

 

[DiscipleDave]

Oy vey. A man claiming to be infallable?

Having eyes and ears, but do not see or hear. i have never, ever, claimed to be infallable. Please go see and read, and hear what i actually said. i plainly and clearly said what HE told me is infallable, this you apparently did not see or understand. Whatsoever God tells a person is indeed infallable, even though the person him/herself is fallible.

We are told to test everything, yet your message CANNOT be tested, because you have already deemed it INFALLIBLE.

lol, just because someone deems to be infallible does not mean they can't be tested, that is just silly. Anything a person says can be tested via the Holy Inspired Scriptures. We should never test what a person says by if you agree with them or not, Everything should be tested by the Word of God.

So then if you disagree with what i teach, that is your free will choice to do so. But you are not the judge if what i teach is correct or incorrect. The Word of God is. If then something that i have said contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then i am a false teacher not to be hearkened to at all. If you think something that i have said is wrong, then it should be easy for you to find some Scriptures that prove that i am wrong in what i teach, instead of merely falsely accusing a brother in the Lord to be wrong with no Scriptural basis whatsoever. If you think what i teach is false, then should it not be easy for you to reveal the Scriptures that prove it? But i already know you can't do so, you merely believe what i teach is false because you believe that i teach false based on your own false thinking. Do you judge me according to your own mind, or judge me according to the Word of God? One is evil the other just.

Again, if you accuse me of false teaching, then reveal any Scriptures that is contrary to what i teach. Awaiting your response.

Does your cult have any followers, or is it just you and a couple of others?

You do well in asking if i have a cult instead of what is usually done by others, accusing me of being in one. No, i am in no cult. i am a servant of Jesus Christ, i do all things to please Him, i teach to stop obeying His enemy satan and living in sin, i teach to Love One Another, as He commanded us to do. Tell me Hevosmies, have you shown Love for me, or contempt? Fruits reveal to whom your master is, regardless what you claim with your mouth. So i teach against sinning, and i teach to Love One Another, how many do you think would follow me in this generation? For who do not love to sin? What? You claim to not love sin, but continue to commit the same sin over and over and over and over and over and over again, vainly repenting of it, because you do not cease from it. Does not the Holy INspired Word of God teach us to set aside the sin that so easily besets us, yet does not this generation continue to live in sin, knowing full well it is sinful but does not cease from it, why do they not cease from it, because they love it. Does not Scriptures teach to Awake to Righteousness and SIN NOT? Did not Jesus tell a man and a woman to "Go and Sin no more"? i also teach if you fail to Love One Another, you will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, How many from this generation would be willing to follow me, which testifies that God is the one who told me all those TRUTHS, if i lie, then i myself am a liar, and Rev 21:8 plainly and clearly teaches that ALL LIARS will burn in the lake of fire and brimstone, if i lie, then i condemn myself do i not? But i tell you the TRUTH, and you believe it not, the sheep know the voice of the Sheppard. Those who are not of the flock do not recognize the Sheppard's voice when they hear it. If then the Sheppard tells me "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in all of Scriptures, then what you believe is WRONG" Then i tell you what He told me. If you do not believe what i tell you, it is not i that you do not believe but Him who told me, which is God.

Why isnt your writings in the Bible? Thats odd.

What writings are you referring to?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Hevosmies]

But i tell you the TRUTH, and you believe it not, the sheep know the voice of the Sheppard. Those who are not of the flock do not recognize the Sheppard's voice when they hear it. If then the Sheppard tells me "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in all of Scriptures, then what you believe is WRONG" Then i tell you what He told me. If you do not believe what i tell you, it is not i that you do not believe but Him who told me, which is God.

Did the Holy Spirit typo the word Sheppard (Shepherd) when He supposedly inspired your infallible message there? NO!

Its you typing, not the Holy Spirit

 

[DiscipleDave]

It is about both, and technically the Rapture should be called the Resurrection/Rapture, But it happens BEFORE the second coming of Christ. Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints. This is elementary, my dear Watson.

Brother Nehemiah6 you do error not understanding the verse:

Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

But if you will hear it, and if not, so be it, matters not, but that i fail not to mention the TRUTH, even though most certainly i will be ridiculed by it, from this generation.

You do error not understanding that Saints do not only come from Earth. You are assuming that when Jesus comes with the Saints, that those Saints are from Earth, as if Earth is the only planet in the Universe that can create Saints.

Goat Christians, gather up your stones. But i have not failed to tell you the TRUTH.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave