Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines
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Unless some of those "most Christians" came back from the dead in their spiritual bodies how would you know iffin they were resurrected?
Were yer expecting something like "The Walking Dead"?
Paul stated that the resurrection was about to be:
Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;
Paul thought it was close as in "about to be" - maybe he was wrong and the rest of the futurist "theologies" were right.
I think I will go with Paul as he claims he was inspired.
Were yer expecting something like "The Walking Dead"?
Paul stated that the resurrection was about to be:
Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;
Paul thought it was close as in "about to be" - maybe he was wrong and the rest of the futurist "theologies" were right.
I think I will go with Paul as he claims he was inspired.
The Nicene Creed of 325 A.D. condemns it.
It says, "From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead." So in the mind of the writers at the council of Nicea the judging of the righteous and unrighteous was still future in 325 A.D. This council is considered one of the most important "church meetings" in history.
Anything in opposition to that, like full preterism which says the resurrection of the dead and the new heavens and new earth happened in 70 A.D., would be considered heresy to them.
It says, "From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead." So in the mind of the writers at the council of Nicea the judging of the righteous and unrighteous was still future in 325 A.D. This council is considered one of the most important "church meetings" in history.
Anything in opposition to that, like full preterism which says the resurrection of the dead and the new heavens and new earth happened in 70 A.D., would be considered heresy to them.
When you say "there is about to be" in Acts 24: 15 you are referring to the Greek word "mello" It's Strong's Concordance 3195.
That word has a few different meanings. According to Thayer, who is widely regarded as one of the best lexicons of the past 100 years that word simply means, "something that is sure to happen."
If you notice the most literal translations like NKJV, ESV, NASB, none of them translate the word the way you suggested.
NKJV Acts 24: 15, "I have a hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there WILL BE a resurrection from the dead, both of the just and the unjust."
ESV Acts 24: 15, "having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there WILL BE a resurrection of both the just and the unjust."
NASB Acts 24: 15, "having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall CERTAINLY BE a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
So we see all these translations line up with what Thayer says in his lexicon. These translation committees are full of men who are fluent in the biblical languages.
You are saying we should accept your version of "there is about to be" because it is a possibility for the word. That's how cults and false doctrines get started. Why do none of the major formal equivalence translations translate it your way then? In fact almost all the major translations, whether formal or dynamic, translate it as "will be", "certainly be" not "about to be".
They are all in agreement with each other and also Thayer's lexicon. But you are saying we should base a major doctrine like resurrection of the dead on an outlier possiblity in Acts 24: 15 when we have other clear texts from Scripture that describe it as future.
I don't think that is a good idea.
Let me guess Thayer - futurist scholar, as are most bible translators.
What other scriptures "describe it as future"?
In regards to mello let's look at how some translations deal with it such as the NASB.
Acts 25:4 Festus then answered that Paul was being kept in custody at Caesarea and that he himself was about to leave shortly.
Acts 28:6 But they were expecting that he was about to swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had waited a long time and had seen nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and began to say that he was a god.
Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;
Rev 2:10 'Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life.
There are more examples of how mello has a sense of imminence rather than shall or will be.
What other scriptures "describe it as future"?
In regards to mello let's look at how some translations deal with it such as the NASB.
Acts 25:4 Festus then answered that Paul was being kept in custody at Caesarea and that he himself was about to leave shortly.
Acts 28:6 But they were expecting that he was about to swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But after they had waited a long time and had seen nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and began to say that he was a god.
Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;
Rev 2:10 'Be not afraid of the things that thou art about to suffer; lo, the devil is about to cast of you to prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days; become thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of the life.
There are more examples of how mello has a sense of imminence rather than shall or will be.
Well I said in my last reply it has a few meanings. It can be interpreted your way. It also means a certainty of something happening which seems to be its primary meaning. The major formal equivalence translations don't translate it that way in Acts 24: 15 which is my point.
Obviously the context matters in how you translate it. That's why it has a few different meanings!
You are referencing Acts 25: 4 where the context makes it clear it should be translated "about to". Same thing with Acts 28: 6. Same thing with Revelation 2: 10.
In regards to Rev 1: 1 and 1: 19 which are favorite proof-texts of the full preterist position they are no problem for the amillennialist like myself.
The amillennialist believes much of the book of Revelation has been in continuous fulfillment for 2,000 years. Where the full preterist errs in my opinion, is that he insists that ALL of the book of Revelation was fulfilled by A.D. 70 which Revelation makes no such claim. That is an assumption by the full preterist not derived from Scripture.
why do i have to even explain this....
Lets say there was a resurrection right after Paul died, ok?
Now: What do we do when the NEXT GENERATION was born after that? They missed the resurrection, as have all of us now. This means there needs to be a future resurrection, or else WE and all other generations after that will NEVER be resurrected.
You are teaching some ridicilous stuff and DARE critique dispensationalism? SERIOUSLY?
No surprise you would deny the physical resurrection, another heresy to pile on.
Lets say there was a resurrection right after Paul died, ok?
Now: What do we do when the NEXT GENERATION was born after that? They missed the resurrection, as have all of us now. This means there needs to be a future resurrection, or else WE and all other generations after that will NEVER be resurrected.
You are teaching some ridicilous stuff and DARE critique dispensationalism? SERIOUSLY?
No surprise you would deny the physical resurrection, another heresy to pile on.
That tells me that you did not read my post. Therefore, here is an excerpt from it showing the chronological order of end-time events:
* We are here
* The Lord descends and gathers His church (Rapture)
* The ruler/antichrist establishes his seven year covenant
* The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment are in operation throughout the seven years
* The Lord returns to the earth to end the age after the 7th bowl has been poured out (second coming)
* The beast and false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, alive
* Satan is thrown into the Abyss and is sealed in it during that thousand year reign of Christ
* Great tribulation saints are resurrected and reign with Christ during the thousand years
* Satan is released at the end of the thousand years for one last rebellion
* Great white thrown judgment of the unrighteous dead takes place
* This current heaven and earth pass away
* New heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem - the eternal state
* We are here
* The Lord descends and gathers His church (Rapture)
* The ruler/antichrist establishes his seven year covenant
* The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment are in operation throughout the seven years
* The Lord returns to the earth to end the age after the 7th bowl has been poured out (second coming)
* The beast and false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, alive
* Satan is thrown into the Abyss and is sealed in it during that thousand year reign of Christ
* Great tribulation saints are resurrected and reign with Christ during the thousand years
* Satan is released at the end of the thousand years for one last rebellion
* Great white thrown judgment of the unrighteous dead takes place
* This current heaven and earth pass away
* New heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem - the eternal state
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How can things that are "shortly come to pass" last for 2000 years and counting?
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
But you are reading into the text. You are insisting a COMPLETE fulfillment of everything in the book of Revelation which the book itself does not claim. You think it means that but it does not explicitly state that. It says "the things which must shortly come to pass". Does that mean ALL things? I don't see the word all.
The resurrection clearly has not come. I don't have a glorified body. If it has come, then is there a second resurrection for me and everybody after A.D. 70? Is the 1,000 year millennium only about 40 years from Christ to about A.D. 70? Does that seem reasonable?
The amillennialist also sees the 1,000 years as symbolic but I think there is a good reason the number 1,000 is used. It's a long period of time, not 40 years.
Full preterism has all types of problems like these. One or two by themselves don't discount the system necessarily but when you have a mountain of them it becomes overwhelming that your system is not biblical.
People were hardly ever full preterists before 40 or 50 years ago. It is a relatively recent phenomenon in that it has a few followers now. So God kept his true eschatology hidden from 99.9% of the church, who have the Holy Spirit, for 2,000 years. Sorry, I can't buy that one.
Most Christians have been amillennialist throughout the history of the church. I hold a majority position. Christians who have the Holy Spirit to guide them into truth. I don't have a crazy outlier position.
Thanks to John Darby and Scofield, North American churches are now infested with premillennialism and a pre-trib rapture that won't come to pass. That is why I made my post. I am concerned about Christians looking for the wrong thing.
If you want to believe full preterism, more power to you. I think you have made a serious error. But you have to follow your convictions and I can respect that.
If you have really studied all the views in depth, the pros and cons of each, and believe full preterism is correct then I can always respect that.
It's the premillennialist who always hears nothing but dispensational teachers and have never studied any other view point of eschatology that are frustrating. It's like watching a Youtube video on brain surgery and declaring yourself a neurosurgeon. Hard to reason with people like that.
As I said in my previous post, you are interpreting "I will raise them up at the last day" as referring to one specific day. However, just as "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial" are neither a day, nor an hour in length, neither is the "last day" that the Lord is referring to. What He is saying is that He will raise them up during the end times. As proof of this, the "first resurrection" has phases or stages to it with Jesus being the first fruits, followed by the dead and the living of the church, then later the male child/144,000, the two witnesses and then the great tribulation saints when Christ returns to the earth to end the age.
In order to come to a right conclusion, it is important to understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. When you or others have the church being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. So right of the bat you have a enormous problem, since believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath.
All the above is saying is that we cannot inherit the kingdom of God in these mortal bodies, which is followed by Paul saying, "behold I show you a mystery. We shall not all be dead, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. For the dead shall rise first and then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This event of the gathering of the church is a separate event vs. when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
Therefore regarding your statement above, the church will have been gathered by the Lord prior to His wrath, with those great tribulation saints who make it through the time of God's wrath, alive, as those who will populate the earth during the millennial kingdom, not the church. The church will have already been resurrected and caught up at least seven years earlier and will be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be ruling with Christ during the His thousand year kingdom.
So according to your premill view you have people marrying and repopulating the earth. But according to Scripture there can be no marriage in the next age therefore there can be no repopulation. [/quote]
Your error above is that you are not recognizing that there difference between the church and the great tribulation saints. The church is gathered prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the 1st seal. The great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, are those who will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church, but will become believer during that time. These are those
I never said that! The thousand years will be a literal thousand years, which will begin when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
How convenient of you to pass it off those characteristics as being symbolic in order to get rid of its literal meaning. There not being any ferocity between pray and predator, the lion eating straw like the Ox and a child being able to put his hand into a vipers nest, is describing the peaceful characteristics of the millennial kingdom. Since we have never had a time in history since this was written, then the only time that could happen would be during the millennial kingdom.
Your conclusions are false. Consider the following: In Rev.19:6-8 we have the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she had just received.
All you are doing, like so many, are believing in and spreading false teachings.
In order to come to a right conclusion, it is important to understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. When you or others have the church being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, then you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer. So right of the bat you have a enormous problem, since believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath.
All the above is saying is that we cannot inherit the kingdom of God in these mortal bodies, which is followed by Paul saying, "behold I show you a mystery. We shall not all be dead, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. For the dead shall rise first and then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This event of the gathering of the church is a separate event vs. when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.
Therefore regarding your statement above, the church will have been gathered by the Lord prior to His wrath, with those great tribulation saints who make it through the time of God's wrath, alive, as those who will populate the earth during the millennial kingdom, not the church. The church will have already been resurrected and caught up at least seven years earlier and will be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will be ruling with Christ during the His thousand year kingdom.
So according to your premill view you have people marrying and repopulating the earth. But according to Scripture there can be no marriage in the next age therefore there can be no repopulation. [/quote]
Your error above is that you are not recognizing that there difference between the church and the great tribulation saints. The church is gathered prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the 1st seal. The great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, are those who will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church, but will become believer during that time. These are those
I never said that! The thousand years will be a literal thousand years, which will begin when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.
How convenient of you to pass it off those characteristics as being symbolic in order to get rid of its literal meaning. There not being any ferocity between pray and predator, the lion eating straw like the Ox and a child being able to put his hand into a vipers nest, is describing the peaceful characteristics of the millennial kingdom. Since we have never had a time in history since this was written, then the only time that could happen would be during the millennial kingdom.
Your conclusions are false. Consider the following: In Rev.19:6-8 we have the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen that she had just received.
All you are doing, like so many, are believing in and spreading false teachings.