Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[delirious]

"108John 5:28 f. - The difference of time in the two judgments is recognised by Meyer and Beyschlag. An objection made that the two resurrections take place in the same hour is rebutted by verse 26, where the spiritual resurrection which has gone on for nearly two millenniums is also called an "hour." A resurrection of the wicked does not emerge so clearly from the Synoptic accounts. That there is to be no general contemporaneous resurrection was foreshadowed by Psalm 1:6 [perhaps Psalm 1:5??]: "The wicked shall not arise in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous." See LXX. and Vulgate (resurgent). The German critics no more apprehend the sense of qum there than English translators, who alike adhere to "stand." But cf. Matthew 12:41, where all assign to ἀναστήσονται, in the same form of words, its natural meaning. The usual idea is that the Old Testament uniformly predicates resurrection of the righteous alone, but the point is that they who have done good and those that have done evil will not rise together. Cf. Simcox on Revelation 20:6. The Pharisees supposed that only the righteous would live again (Josephus, "Antiquities," xviii. 14; 2 Macc. 6: 26; and other references in Bousset, "Religion of Judaism," p. 259)."

Hello Watermark. Good to see you back at it. It is nice to continue our discussion from yesterday.

I think you meant verse 25 and not 26. Let me quote it here as it reads in Scripture with some important capitalization for emphasis.

John 5: 25, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the HOUR IS COMING, and NOW IS, when the dead will HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD; and those who hear will live."

Let's examine this verse very carefully. We also have to remember the "now but not yet" component that we find in Scripture with many doctrines. Like we are saved NOW by faith in Christ but NOT YET fully saved until we are perfected at the resurrection. Until then we still stumble with sin.

Same thing with the kingdom of God. It's here on earth NOW but NOT YET fully consummated until Christ's return.

So what is Jesus saying in John 5: 25? Notice what I capitalized. The HOUR (now) is when people will hear what? The VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and live. I think we can agree this is people who are dead spiritually being made alive spiritually. People are getting saved through Jesus' preaching using His AUDIBLE/PHYSICAL voice. Jesus hasn't been on the earth for 2,000 years. He was talking to his listeners ONLY because you and I have never heard His voice physically. You cannot say this is a "spiritual" hearing of His voice going on for 2,000 years like your commentators are falsely claiming. Jesus makes it clear in this verse it is His audible/physical voice.

But He also says the HOUR IS COMING (not yet) which is described in verses 28 & 29. Those verses are about people also "HEARING HIS VOICE" and coming out of the graves physically. This is also an AUDIBLE shout from Him. The "hour" has not been going on for 2,000 years. Your commentators failed to see the "now and not yet" of verse 25 which is there. Jesus is talking about two different hours. One where people here His preaching and live and one where people hear his shout and come out of the graves.

We also have Acts 24: 15 which says the resurrection includes both the just and unjust at the same time which also disproves your commentators.

Acts 24: 15, "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be A RESURRECTION of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

The word in the Greek for "resurrection" is in the singular meaning only one, not two as the premill will claim. If there was more than one resurrection Paul would have used the plural form in the Greek and it would have been translated "resurrections" in our English Bibles.

 

[delirious]

Sure it can answer these questions - but you need to correctly identify the whore of Babylon for your "system" to work and then the rest will fall into place.

Could you answer the objections I just put forth then? Using Scripture. Saying, "Sure it can." is not an argument.

 

[delirious]

You are imposing your own meaning for your own mistaken interpretations. Please note:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4591: σημαίνω ...equivalent to to make known: absolutely Revelation 1:1

That refutes your claim and also indicates that Revelation -- like every other book in the Bible -- must be taken in its plain literal sense, unless there is a valid reason to see a metaphor or a symbol.

Nothing was refuted by you in your reply. That is not what the Greek word means. You misquoted. It means, "to make known BY SIGNS". Revelation tells you in the first verse it is symbolic and don't interpret it literally.

Had you studied this term carefully, Christ used "the last day" as a metaphor for a period of time which would extend for AT LEAST ONE THOUSAND YEARS. In Rev 20 we see the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints, followed by 1,000 years of the literal reign of Christ on earth. This is followed by the battle of Gog and Magog, which is then followed by the Great White Throne Judgment, at which we see the resurrection of the unrighteous and the wicked.
Quite the opposite. Scripture established the very important doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church (which has always been imminent), and it is essential that the Church be removed from the earth prior to the rise of the Antichrist and all the judgments seen from Rev 6-19.

Everything you quoted here is just dispensation teaching. It is not from the Bible. The "last day" does not refer to "one thousand years". Can you give me Scripture that shows this? You have presented no argument from Scripture to prove your dispensational theory.

Claiming that the church is raptured because you don't see it mentioned in Rev: 6-19 on earth is also not an argument. More dispensational teaching and poor hermeneutics. The church is definitely on earth in chapters 6-19 of Revelation.

Can you give me Scripture proving a pre-trib rapture? I showed in my original post how a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible according to Scripture.

 

[Locutus]

Could you answer the objections I just put forth then? Using Scripture. Saying, "Sure it can." is not an argument.

I'm not defending Full preterism here - as for answering your "questions" the answers wouldn't make much sense to someone with your "eschatology" when you can't make head nor tail of what is written.

Last day, let's look at what you can't comprehend:

Acts 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Acts 3:24 and also all the prophets from Samuel and those following in order, as many as spake, did also foretell of these days

1 John 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many -- whence we know that it is the last hour;

We have Peter claiming to be living in the last days, years later we have John proclaiming it is the last hour.

Your "theology"' has John's last hour lasting for nearly 2000 years and counting.

You are in conflict with and contradicting the inspired words of Peter and John, therefore what you are trying to do is spread another false doctrine.

Do yer think we are in the last microsecond?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So what is Jesus saying in John 5: 25? Notice what I capitalized. The HOUR (now) is when people will hear what? The VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and live. I think we can agree this is people who are dead spiritually being made alive spiritually. People are getting saved through Jesus' preaching using His AUDIBLE/PHYSICAL voice. Jesus hasn't been on the earth for 2,000 years. He was talking to his listeners ONLY because you and I have never heard His voice physically. You cannot say this is a "spiritual" hearing of His voice going on for 2,000 years like your commentators are falsely claiming. Jesus makes it clear in this verse it is His audible/physical voice.

So are you saying that one of His discourses lasted 60 minutes? Which one counted for that? (especially since He said "and now is," He must have meant that one, the one He was saying at that point? [the present 60 minutes when He said that?])

Or are you referring to His 3+ year earthly ministry?

Which one was that "HOUR" we are discussing? (verse 25)

But He also says the HOUR IS COMING (not yet) which is described in verses 28 & 29. Those verses are about people also "HEARING HIS VOICE" and coming out of the graves physically. This is also an AUDIBLE shout from Him. The "hour" has not been going on for 2,000 years.

So is this instantaneous? Lasting 60 minutes (literal "hour")? A duration of 3+ years, like perhaps was the earlier "HOUR"? Or some other?

 

[iamsoandso]

lol, Joel 1:15,,, it's alway been soon..

Yep soandso Joel 2:1 It's about 6-7 hundred years later but it's "nigh at hand"...

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

So are you saying that one of His discourses lasted 60 minutes? Which one counted for that? (especially since He said "and now is," He must have meant that one, the one He was saying at that point? [the present 60 minutes when He said that?])

Or are you referring to His 3+ year earthly ministry?

Which one was that "HOUR" we are discussing? (verse 25)



So is this instantaneous? Lasting 60 minutes (literal "hour")? A duration of 3+ years, like perhaps was the earlier "HOUR"? Or some other?

I find it interesting that the ministry of Jesus Christ lasted 3 1/2 years on the earth, and that the Antichrist's will also be 3 1/2 years. He copies the true Christ in so many areas.

 

[delirious]

I'm not defending Full preterism here - as for answering your "questions" the answers wouldn't make much sense to someone with your "eschatology" when you can't make head nor tail of what is written.

Last day, let's look at what you can't comprehend:

Acts 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Acts 3:24 and also all the prophets from Samuel and those following in order, as many as spake, did also foretell of these days

1 John 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many -- whence we know that it is the last hour;

We have Peter claiming to be living in the last days, years later we have John proclaiming it is the last hour.

Your "theology"' has John's last hour lasting for nearly 2000 years and counting.

You still didn't answer my objections using Scripture. Why don't you at least make the attempt and we will see if I understand or not. When you refuse to, anybody who knows how to critically think will assume you have no argument. Prove me wrong.

You have people resurrecting in A.D. 70 when Job 14: 12 says explicitly no one resurrects until the heavens are no more. If you claim it is only a "spiritual resurrection" that happened in A.D. 70 then what happens to everyone born after A.D. 70? There is no other resurrection mentioned after the "last day" resurrection that you believe happened in A.D. 70. I guess everyone born after A.D. 70 is out of luck.

Since A.D. 70 was considered the "last day" a consistent full-preterist must say that we are currently in the new heavens and earth. How is that possible? I would love to hear your explanation of that. Revelation 21 tells us about the new heaven and earth:

Rev 21: 4, "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

People are still dying today but Revelation 21: 4 says in the new heavens and earth there is no more death. It says there is no more crying either. Lots of people still crying today.

Isaiah 65: 17 talks about the new heavens and earth also, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind."

It says the former things won't come to mind. Yet we can read about lots of stuff that happened before A.D. 70. I would say that qualifies as coming to mind.

Could you please explain all of these things to me using Scripture?

 

[Locutus]

What is a spiritual resurrection?

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Here's yer resurrection ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Nehemiah6]

Everything you quoted here is just dispensation teaching. It is not from the Bible.

You must have a Bible unlike anyone else. I have given you the exact sequence of events in the Bible, and if it corresponds to Dispensational teaching then so be it.

And let's face it. You are not really interested in Scripture which clearly reveals a Pretribulation Premillennial Rapture. That would overthrow your whole eschatology, and then where would you be?

 

[Locutus]

Yep soandso Joel 2:1 It's about 6-7 hundred years later but it's "nigh at hand"...

Ah Ha - evening Bro - still trying to fit poor ol' Joel in some where eh Bro.

 

[delirious]

So are you saying that one of His discourses lasted 60 minutes? Which one counted for that? (especially since He said "and now is," He must have meant that one, the one He was saying at that point? [the present 60 minutes when He said that?])

Or are you referring to His 3+ year earthly ministry?

Which one was that "HOUR" we are discussing? (verse 25)



So is this instantaneous? Lasting 60 minutes (literal "hour")? A duration of 3+ years, like perhaps was the earlier "HOUR"? Or some other?

I am not saying the hour is literal. That is your hermeneutic. Dispensational premillennialists are the ones who interpret Scripture very literally. But you guys are not consistent with your own hermeneutic that you champion. You want to make the "last day" 1,000 or 1,007 years! You are doing the same thing with "hour" here in John 5!

Premillennialists accuse amillennialists like myself all the time saying we "spiritualize and allegorize" the Scriptures to make them say what we want. I'm not claiming that you are saying that about me, but in all my replies with you have I been making it say whatever I want? I don't think so.

I just showed that premillennialists don't follow their own hermeneutic and do the very same thing they accuse amillennialists of!

I am saying the "hour" is a short period of time and should not be taken literally. I think that period of time varies slightly based on the context and the author using it.

The premill "allegorizes and spiritualizes" the Scripture way worse than any amillennialist ever could when he says the "Last Day" is 1,000 or 1,007 years long.

You never answered Job 14: 12 either. That response by William Henry is complete nonsense. There was no argument that I saw there. If I missed it, could you please point it out to me? The only argument I saw was he was trying to say that "man" in Job 14: 12 meant only the unsaved. That is pure Eisegesis and denying what the Scripture says in that verse.

In Job 14: 12 it refers to all of mankind that's why it says man. Mankind consists of just and unjust persons. To say it is only unsaved is a desperate attempt to save premillennialism.

You also did not answer Acts 24: 15. Why is the word for "resurrection" singular in the Greek? Because Paul was only thinking of one resurrection where all men are raised. Otherwise that word for "resurrection" would have been plural in the Greek. I would like to hear your explanation for that as well.

 

[delirious]

What is a spiritual resurrection?

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Here's yer resurrection ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Once again you avoided all my arguments. Do you have any arguments from Scripture to refute the Scripture I presented that shows your system to be false?

What happens to people born after 70 A.D? Why is there still death? Why are people still crying? Why can A.D. 70 still come to our mind? Revelation 21: 4 and Isaiah 65: 17 say these things won't happen anymore in the new heavens and new earth.

 

[delirious]

You must have a Bible unlike anyone else. I have given you the exact sequence of events in the Bible, and if it corresponds to Dispensational teaching then so be it.

And let's face it. You are not really interested in Scripture which clearly reveals a Pretribulation Premillennial Rapture. That would overthrow your whole eschatology, and then where would you be?

You avoided all the arguments in my original post I presented that prove your dispensational eschatological timeline to be false.

Your reply here is a purely emotional response and therefore is not an argument and invalid. I hope you can see that.

I presented Scripture in my original post that proves a 1,000 year reign of Christ and a Pre-Trib rapture are impossible according to Scripture.

Please refute what I said using Scripture if you think it is wrong. Otherwise you have no argument. Just emotions.

 

[Locutus]

Once again you avoided all my arguments. Do you have any arguments from Scripture to refute the Scripture I presented that shows your system to be false?

What happens to people born after 70 A.D? Why is there still death? Why are people still crying? Why can A.D. 70 still come to our mind? Revelation 21: 4 and Isaiah 65: 17 say these things won't happen anymore in the new heavens and new earth.

Quoting a coupla scriptures hardly refutes "my" system - what you are trying to do is pit scripture against scripture to try and disprove something that exists only in yer confused imagination.

I just accept what JC said about all prophecy being fulfilled in the days when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies - both "your's" and dispensational "theology" is at odds with all of the new testament and Jesus' plain statement here:

Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all things that have been written.

You "theological" types do all sorts of contortions with the holy writ to support yer highly imaginative theories.

 

[iamsoandso]

Ah Ha - evening Bro - still trying to fit poor ol' Joel in some where eh Bro.

I notice that most FP on the internet and yourself often enjoy reciting the Scriptures that mention near,soon,at hand ect. and so I thought you would enjoy being shown another, why do you enjoy some but not those in Joel?

 

[Locutus]

I notice that most FP on the internet and yourself often enjoy reciting the Scriptures that mention near,soon,at hand ect. and so I thought you would enjoy being shown another, why do you enjoy some but not those in Joel?

Have you looked on the net for what other FP'ers have said in regards to Joel Soandso?

Like I've said in the past I can't explain every line of scripture to others or my satisfaction - but overall I'm happy that FP does a very good job of explaining the scriptures.

The other fanciful "theologies" just don't cut it.

 

[delirious]

You "theological" types do all sorts of contortions with the holy writ to support yer highly imaginative theories.

I actually used Scripture to support my position. Where did I contort Scripture? Could you please give some examples.

Quoting a coupla scriptures hardly refutes "my" system - what you are trying to do is pit scripture against scripture to try and disprove something that exists only in yer confused imagination.

Pitting Scripture against Scripture? Could you please give some examples of where I did that too?

You are also ASSUMING that the "all things" of Luke 21: 22 refers to everything in the Bible which is what consistent full-preterists believe. That puts us currently in the "new heavens and new earth" according to your system.

That is why I cited the Scriptures I did in the previous post. Those Scriptures prove the full-preterism system is false. I would think if you are so confident full-preterism is correct that you would explain to me how I have misunderstood those Scriptures.

 

[delirious]

Have you looked on the net for what other FP'ers have said in regards to Joel Soandso?

Like I've said in the past I can't explain every line of scripture to others or my satisfaction - but overall I'm happy that FP does a very good job of explaining the scriptures.

The other fanciful "theologies" just don't cut it.

It's fine if you can't explain everything. I would think that you would at least refute the Scriptures that are presented though that show your system to be false. If you can't refute those why would you believe in the system?

 

[iamsoandso]

Have you looked on the net for what other FP'ers have said in regards to Joel Soandso?

Like I've said in the past I can't explain every line of scripture to others or my satisfaction - but overall I'm happy that FP does a very good job of explaining the scriptures.

The other fanciful "theologies" just don't cut it.

Yes but they never mention the Scriptures from Joel I used along with the near,soon,at hand Scriptures often quoted and was in hopes you could explain why. Ecclesiastes 1:9 is a good starting point in Eschatology. And thank you for not including me in the fanciful theologies me being outside the camps and all.