Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[TheDivineWatermark]

The OP was so long, that my response to the OP will have to come in (at least) 4 posts (forgive me... and I sure hope I don't have to try to EDIT it all, LOL):

delirious: The premillennialist believes in three ages after the cross. The church age that we are currently in, the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth (the millennium), and the New Heavens and Earth after the 1,000 years are over.

No, premill does not believe in 3 [singular] "ages" after the Cross. Generally speaking, it believes there is "this present age [singular]" and "the age [singular] to come" (both occurring "on the earth" just as all "age [singular]" do)... and after that is "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which means eternity/eternal state, or forever (as we commonly call it).

Pre-trib, on the other hand (though also being Premill), believes that "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" is the last 7 years of the time period Jesus and His disciples were standing in and speaking out from, which will both commence and conclude AFTER "the Church which is His body" is caught UP in our Rapture. Jesus did not speak of our Rapture (nor Church-truths) at the time of His [speaking His] Olivet Discourse, only breifly having mentioned His Church prior to this.

Matthew 22:7-8 provides this SEQUENCE (which I've gone over several times before, so won't go into now, but basically: v.7 is the 70ad events, THEN verse 8's "THEN SAITH HE to His servants" = Rev1:1/7:3 (re: the 4:1/1:1 FUTURE things--NOT things happening NOW "in this present age [singular]"/the Church age, so called; Rev1:1 "...things which must come to pass [4:1--the future things] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]...").

So which one is correct? Let us start by looking at some Scriptures and see how Jesus Himself and Paul viewed this.

Here (in what you are getting ready to present in the following), you are disregarding what 1Cor2:7-8, "...which none of the princes of this world knew: FOR HAD THEY KNOWN IT, they WOULD NOT have crucified the Lord of glory."

There were certain things that were necessary to be kept secret/hidden-in-God/a-mystery-until-after the crucifixion, otherwise (had they been made aware of this), they WOULD NOT have crucified Him!

Matthew 12:32, “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Jesus (as of this point in time) only spoke of (elaborated on) "the age they were standing in" [not "the Church age"] and "the age [singular] to come" (which they understood correctly to be the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--they just did not understand the TIMING of it).

God had not disclosed through Jesus' earthly ministry things pertaining to "this present age [singular]" which were "hidden in God"... Read Acts 3:26 (and its context) which says "UNTO YOU FIRST [you, Israel] having raised up [that is, to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death! (see v.22)--there are TWO DISTINCT kinds of "raised" in this chpt!] having raised up His Servant Jesus [earthly ministry BEFORE His death] , SENT HIM to bless you [Israel], in turning every one of you from his iniquities." And verse 4 of the following chapter states, "Howbeit many of them that heard the word believed;"

Luke 18:29-30, “Truly, truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Luke 20:34-35, Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage but those that are accounted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage.”

Same as above, in the first of those two paragraphs I'd put.

Ephesians 1: 21, “far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but in the age to come.”

Paul was given to understand the things that had been kept "hidden in God" until after the Cross/His resurrection/exaltation, so he speaks of "this present age" (the Church age) and then also "the age [singular] to come" ("age" in the singular is always connected to the earth, where it will transpire).

So Jesus and Paul only knew of two ages.

Jesus said what His Father wanted Him to say (which He didn't want certain secrets known before the Cross work was carried out).
Paul was given revelation of certain things pertaining to "the Church which is His body" (its position, privileges, placement, doctrine/teachings, etc), which had not yet been disclosed (before the Cross work was carried out).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2)

delirious: I think by looking at some further Scriptures to see how this current age ends, we can rule out any possibility of a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth and therefore disprove premillennialism. Let us proceed and take a look at the next set of Scriptures.

Here, you are incorrectly conflating "this present age [singular]" (what is commonly called "the Church age" though some refer to it as the age of the Spirit) with "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that Jesus was speaking of to His Jewish disciples, and which will [futurely] conclude the age they were standing in and speaking out from. (THAT age, not this present age/the Church age/the age of the Spirit, if you will).

Matthew 13:47-50, “The kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

"the end [singular] of the age [singular]" is when the angels will REAP. Only "the righteous" will enter "the age [singular] to come" time period, at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth (Heb1:8 uses the word "age [singular]" and Rev19:15b states He will FUTURE to that point "shepherd them [the nations] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]."

2 Peter 3:10-13, “But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of person ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”

"IN WHICH" involves a great many things over a duration of some time (just as it does in Acts 17:31 and others).

2 Thessalonians 1: 7-10, “And to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when he comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints…”

The text states, "rest with us IN the revelation..." and "these SHALL BE punished..." and, not "when He comes, in that day, to be glorified in His saints," but instead states, "when He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all those HAVING BELIEVED because 'the testimony-of-us-to-you' [that body of truth] was believed IN THAT DAY [not in THIS one (speaking of US), but in THAT day/the Day of the Lord time period (speaking of THEM, in CONTRAST to those who will INSTEAD believe 2Th2:10-12!--THE FALSE!--BOTH DURING THE TRIB)]."

Some premillennialists will say that they only believe in two ages just like the amillennialist, and not three, by saying that the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth begins “the age to come” and continues on into the new heavens and new earth and they are both part of the same age.

No. "Age [singular]" connects with the earth... "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" refers to eternity/the eternal state (i.e. forever, as we call it).

But is this true from Scripture? Is the millennium and the new heavens and earth both part of the same age to come? Scripture says no and here is why:

Ditto the above.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

3)

delirious: What did the last Scripture I quoted in 2 Thess mean by “in that Day”?

Already said... it is a duration of time, but in 2Th1 it is only referring to the "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT" (trib/7-yr/70th-Wk) portion, not its entirety (incl'g the entire MK following).

John 6:39, “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

This verse (in contrast with verse 40 about PEOPLE/believers) is referring to the THINGS Jesus is given by God: His reign, His earthly/Davidic throne, His authority to judge, etc... That all STARTS when He opens the FIRST SEAL (when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, etc) and then proceeds until the "He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." [GWTj Rev20]

John 6:44, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

I put a post on this, and it involves looking at John 17... verses 1-19 being about His disciples while on earth ("whom You have given Me"), verse 20 then shifts to [His praying] "for them also which shall believe on Me through their word"... as well as John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Myself."

John 6:54, “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:24, Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Again, Daniel was told he will be resurrected at the end of the days referred to in that context (Dan12:6-7,1, which is at the end of the trib), and this resurrection (not rapture) WAS NO SECRET! Martha WELL-KNEW of this! It was already prophesied in the OT, and so this was NOT what 1Cor2:7-8 involved ("for had they known it, they would NOT have crucified the Lord of glory")

So we know “in that Day” in 2 Thess is the “last day” when saints are resurrected. The last day can only mean the last day of our current age.

"the last day of our current age" is not a biblical phrasing, and conflates several wholly distinct ideas [/passages referring to completely distinct things].

The premillennialist will say that the “last day” happens at the end of the church age although some will say it happens 7 years later at the end of the tribulation.

Sometimes premills say a lot of things they don't quite understand, OR those listening/hearing/reading them (those who DO understand) are not hearing them accurately, often due to pre-conceived definitions of words/phrases/passages and thus have a mental block and can't hear what's really being conveyed (this is OFTEN the case with passages such as 2Th2!)

By saying this they can still have the “age to come” beginning with the 1,000 year reign of Christ and continuing into the new heavens and new earth.

Reread my above explanations

SO IN ORDER TO MAKE PREMILLENNIALISM WORK THEY MUST SAY THAT THE LAST DAY IS BEFORE THE 1,000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST ON EARTH.

No. Raised "IN the Last Day" is still true, because Daniel/OT saints and even future Trib saints are indeed resurrected WITHIN that "LAST" Day (the 7th [millennium] of 7; the "in the third day" [since His "return to My place UNTIL"] of the Hosea 5:15-6:3 passage speaking of Israel [involving LIVING persons, just like Ezek37:12-14,20-23 and Rom11:15 and Dan12:1-3,4,10; etc],...)

So if we can prove that the “last day” is not before the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth then premillennialism is proven false. What does the Scripture say?

"We" haven't proved that. You are insisting that "day" in these passages refers to a singular 24-hr day.

Christ's "RETURN" to the earth falls WITHIN that entire long time period (the DOTL long time period).

 

[delirious]

That would mean Lazarus died twice which would go against Hebrews 9:27 wouldn't it?

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

You can't be too scientifically rigid in your thinking about these things. You are thinking that there can be absolutely no exceptions. Is that what Hebrews 9: 27 is really saying? No.

The Greek word there in Hebrews 9: 27 for man is "Anthropos" it is in the PLURAL. It is talking about all mankind in a general way. Everybody dies. If you think about it too rigidly then what does the premillennialist do with his "rapture"? Lot's of people don't die there.

Where are the resurrected saints today? They were the cloud of witnesses that ascended with Christ. Again the bible says Christ left like he would return.

Acts 1: 9-11 seems to indicate Jesus ascended by Himself. There is no mention of saints with Him.

 

[KJV1611]

All four of these passages you quoted use the Hebrew word "olam". It is Strong's concordance word number 5769. The Hebrew word sometimes means forever like we understand it but also means "long duration" Please look it up and research it for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

Rev 21: 1, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." If you take those verses above to rigidly you have a contradiction with this verse.

Yeah this is kind of getting outside the scope of Job.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

4)

delirious: From the Scriptures I have already quoted in this post we know that the good and bad are gathered together on the same day (Matt 13). The bad are thrown in the Lake of Fire.

I believe one of the verses says "in the FURNACE OF the fire"... and here's where I think the parallel between Isaiah 24:21-22[23] with Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20 comes in, with its TWO "punish" words (one at the Rev19 point in time involving "the PIT/PRISON," and the other "and after many days shall they be punished" [i.e. after the 1000 yrs, at the GWTj])... so my conclusion is that "the FURNACE OF the fire" is the first of those two (note the word "FURNACE" in Rev9:2 which also refers to "pit" 3x, but this is not the final destination of anyone involved in it so far at that point (v.1 speaks of the 5th Trumpet, which I believe is the exact MID-TRIB point in the chronology).

2 Thess and 2 Peter say that the earth is burned up with flaming fire and the heavens are dissolved when the Lord returns.

2Th2:8 refers to [the same person of] "the beast" and we see what happens to him at Rev19:20 at the time of Christ's Second Coming the earth, whereas Satan isn't thrown there until after he spends the 1000 years in "his prison" and then will join them (the beast and false prophet) who have already been there that whole time.

Where do we find similar language in the Bible? The Great White Throne Judgment.

Matt13's "FURNACE OF the fire" is language more close to Rev9:2 [and its "pit"] and Luke 16:23-24 [with its "tormented IN THIS FLAME"] than the later thing, as I see it.

Revelation 20: 11, “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.”
There is no more place for the heaven and earth because they were dissolved with flaming fire at Christ’s return just like 2 Thess and 2 Peter describe.
The premillennialist says the Great White Throne judgment is only for the wicked because the righteous were raised a 1,000 years earlier at the beginning of the millennium. But does the Scripture say this?
We know from John 6:39, John 6:44, John 6:54, and John 11: 24, that I quoted earlier, the righteous are raised on the last day. So is the last day of this age really the end of the church age and the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth like the premillennialist claims?

Repeat.

When are the wicked raised and judged?
John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him IN THE LAST DAY.”

It DOES judge him "IN the Last Day"... he is not permitted to enter and enjoy the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom. This verse doesn't state "raised to be judged" it just says "the same [word] will judge him IN the last day" (meaning, he will NOT be resurrected to experience and enjoy the promised and prophesied earthly MK like the righteous will!)

WE HAVE THE WICKED BEING RAISED AND JUDGED ON THE LAST DAY. THE SAME DAY THE RIGHTEOUS ARE RESURRECTED. Are there two last days? Logic says no.

ONE "Last Day" [the 7th] but two differing experiences [locations], just as Isaiah 24:21-23 refers to (as parallel with Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20--at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom).

We have proven using Scripture that premillennialism is false.

No.

The last day can only be the Great White Throne Judgment.

No. And I suspect it is due also (in addition to all of the above I put) to your not wanting to accept that "the kingdom of the heavens" is NOT "UP IN Heaven," but on the earth and involving His "RETURN" to the earth, at the Rev19 time-slot.

There is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Do we have even more Scriptures to support this? Yes we do.
Job 14: 12, “So man lies down and does not rise till the heavens are no more. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep.” When are the heavens no more? Hint: Rev 20: 11

Job 14 starts out with "man born of a woman," verse 1. (That is "natural birth" not supernatural. )

Daniel 12: 2, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

Speaking of LIVING Israel at the time being referenced (mid-trib), NOT a physical/bodily resurrection, but Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations (examine the CONTEXT of Ezek37:12-14,20-23 very carefully, as well as Rom11:15 and Hosea 5:15-6:3, and Isaiah 26:16-21, etc, and you will see that these are NOT referring to those who are physically dead, but [LIVING] Israel in their FUTURE).

John 5: 28-29, “Do not marvel at this; for the HOUR is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.”
All of these things happen on the last day. That day is the Great White Throne Judgment. When both the righteous and wicked are raised and judged. The wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Matt 13 quoted earlier also Rev 20: 15) and the righteous go into the new heavens and earth.

Already spoke to this, above and in earlier posts...

 

[iamsoandso]

Ok - just did a quick googley spirit search - this is from an FP site:

In Joel chapters 2-3, it is a prediction of the Last Days, when the Spirit would be poured out and the Lord would save the Remnant of Israel, leading to the salvation of all men who would call on the name of the Lord. Notice in 3:1, “in those days and in that time” which wasn’t actually near in Joel’s day. Now, there was an “at hand” day of the Lord in Joel’s day, but the statement above, “in those days and in that time” delineates this day of the Lord from the “at hand” day of the Lord which actually occurred in Joel’s day.

Joel was now being told of events that would occur in the future Last Days at that time. W then, what would be true in the Last Days? Joel 3:14…the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of Jehoshaphat. But did this mean that Joel was actually saying that this day that he’s speaking of as the Last Days was near to HIM? No, he just told us that the Day of the Lord he’s talking about in 3:14 comes AFTER the previous Day of the Lord that he was first speaking about. There are TWO “Days of the Lord” in Joel. The first one is found here:

Joel 1:15 [KJV]​

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.​

Joel 2:1 [KJV]​

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;​

The second one begins here:

Joel 2:28-32 [KJV]​

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.​

And Joel references the second “Last Days” coming of the Lord again here, saying that “in those days, and in that time…”

Joel 3:1 [KJV]​

For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,​

…That it would then be considered “near…” This is projected imminence.

Joel 3:14 [KJV]​

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.​

Remember that Peter said that when the Old Testament prophets spoke of the Last Days, the eschatological “Day of the Lord”, the coming of eternal salvation at that Day of the Lord (1 Peter 1:3-5), they knew they were not speaking of THEIR OWN day, but of Peter’s day. And, thus, we find passages like Daniel 12:

-----------------------------------------

Full text:

https://thykingdomcame.com/category/bible-study-2/

lol, In Joel 3 Israel WINS the war not the gentiles , Egypt and Edom are a desolation. In ad70 the gentiles win and Israel looses(opposite Joel 3). Maybe I should have given Ezekiel 30:3 the day of the Lord is near again,lol...

 

[iamsoandso]

Acts 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:25 ,,the restoration of all things...

What about the second death after the Millennial kingdom does he remain in the Heavens until then?

 

[KJV1611]

You can't be too scientifically rigid in your thinking about these things. You are thinking that there can be absolutely no exceptions. Is that what Hebrews 9: 27 is really saying? No.

The Greek word there in Hebrews 9: 27 for man is "Anthropos" it is in the PLURAL. It is talking about all mankind in a general way. Everybody dies. If you think about it too rigidly then what does the premillennialist do with his "rapture"? Lot's of people don't die there.



Acts 1: 9-11 seems to indicate Jesus ascended by Himself. There is no mention of saints with Him.

I see it like this, who cares if Jesus ascended up into the clouds? How does that help me? What understanding do I gain from this? So it was a cloudy day that day.

But if I take that passage and the passage in Jude (here a little there a little, line upon line, line upon line) then I get the completed picture of what actually happend the day Jesus ascended. That's just how I look at scripture, everything is written for the purpose of giving me the complete picure.

 

[delirious]

But if I take that passage and the passage in Jude (here a little there a little, line upon line, line upon line) then I get the completed picture of what actually happend the day Jesus ascended. That's just how I look at scripture, everything is written for the purpose of giving me the complete picure.

That's exactly what I am also trying to do. Line upon line, precept upon precept. We want to use the clear Scriptures, and not ones that are less clear, to decide our doctrine as much as we can. I'm sure you would agree.

 

[prove-all]

There is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

"Thy Kingdom come" The Good news of the comming Kingdom of God to earth.
After human misrule causes great tribulation that almost wipes out civilization,

The living Christ is coming as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Revelation 19:11-21),
to put down the rebellion of warring nations (Revelation 17:14), and establish God’s
world-ruling government over all nations (Daniel 2:44; 7:9, 13-14, 18, 22, 27; Isaiah 9:7).

He went away (to heaven) to be coronated, and to return to Earth (Luke 19:12-27).
He will then be on the Earth—Zechariah 14:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (Nahum 1:5)
“We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned” (Revelation 11:17)
“The mountains quake at him, and the hills [will] melt…” (Nahum 1:5), (Rev. 16:18)

-The seventh angel sounds-Kingdoms of current world become Christs (Rev 11:15)
Will commit thy government into his hand, established with judgement and jutice.
(Isaiah 22:21) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,
upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,...(Isaiah 9:7)

the Beginning of that rule and world government “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”
(Revelation 20:4).(Isaiah 11:2-4) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall
separate them one from another,...Matthew 25:32

-A Kingdom appointed to the saints , made rulers over some cities.
the glorified saints of God made perfect,cities will be ruled by spirit beings.

Jesus said: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will
I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron…” (Rev 2:26-27).
And again, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne [on this Earth]”
(Revelation 3:21; Luke 1:32-33). And, “…we shall reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:10).

And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;(Luke 22:29)
Some resurrected saints will rule over 10 cities, some over five (Luke 19:12-19)
Saints shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, (Daniel 7:18)
We shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 25:13-22:26, 37:9, 22,29) not flesh and blood.

It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name
of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there. (Ezekiel 48:35)

17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and
all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem:
neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go
no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city
of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt
be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. (Isaiah 62:2)

-Jerusalem, the future headquarters city of the Earth (Haggai 2:6-8)
-Land Beneath Sea Reclaimed, converted to Jerusalem(Isaiah 60:5, 11:15).
World’s gold and silver reserves under the seas for beautiful decorations there.
-Gods latter house shall be greater than of the former (Haggai 2:9)
-Jerusalem is uniquely describes as being “compact together,” tall 122:3

-Desolate land shall be tilled - will be like the garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:34-35)
-Build the waste cities-fresh produce-drink there own wine-farming (Amos 9:14)
-Waste cities “filled with flocks of men” being very social(Ezekiel 36:36-37-38)
-Superhighways between major cities (Isaiah 19:23)

-Cities being crime-free , dwell safely-none be made afried (Ezekiel 34:28-Micah 4:4)
-No more Violence, nor wasting, nor destruction (Isaiah 60:18)
-Cities overflow with prosperity (Zechariah 1:17) -Equitable property distribution
- every man shall own his vine and fig tree (Micah 4:4-Lev25) and

-“Joy and gladness-thanksgiving-the voice of melody(Isaiah 51:3)(Jeremiah 33:10-11)
-Where old men and old women dwell -full of boys and girls playing (Zechariah 8:4-5)
-No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up (Isaiah 35:9 )
-There will be Shepherds and local animal husbandry (Jer. 33:12)

-Pure Water—Fertile Deserts where trees grow (Isaiah 35)
-No more hunger-He will raise up a plant of renown (Ezekiel 34:29)
-A new sharp threshing instrument -the mountains made small(Isaiah 41:14-16)
-If any thrist and seek water, the God of Israel will not forsake them. (ver 17-18)

Trees planted and growing-consider and understand that the [Eternal] hath
done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it” . (verse 19-20)

--All will speak the same language, a pure language from God (Zephaniah 3:9).
God will also destroy the idols, Ezekiel 30:13, Micah 5:10-15, Zechariah 13:2

Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst
of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. (Isaiah 14:7)
All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name.
Psalms 66:4 -God has spoken it, and He is not one to go back on His word (Isaiah 55:11)

 

[delirious]

Watermark, I admire your dedication to your position. I also try to do the same with mine. Unfortunately, I don't think yours is based on Scripture but on lots of DISPENSATIONAL ASSUMPTIONS read into the Scripture.

To provide an example of your assumptions let me respond to your recent post #181:

No, premill does not believe in 3 [singular] "ages" after the Cross. Generally speaking, it believes there is "this present age [singular]" and "the age [singular] to come" (both occurring "on the earth" just as all "age [singular]" do)... and after that is "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" which means eternity/eternal state, or forever (as we commonly call it).

You are ASSUMING that the two ages are this current one and the millennium kingdom. Where does Scripture say that EXPLICITLY? It doesn't. It is a dispensational teaching because you must make room for the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Where does it say Christ will rule and reign FROM EARTH for 1,000 years in the Scriptures? I don't want dispensational ASSUMPTIONS from you. I want EXPLICIT scripture. I can give you EXPLICIT Scripture that says Jesus reigns it from HEAVEN right now and will never do it on this earth.

The rest of your post #181 goes off in wild tangents that have little or nothing to do with the quotations you cite from me. They are just wild ASSUMPTIONS based on dispensational teachings.

 

[Locutus]

lol, In Joel 3 Israel WINS the war not the gentiles , Egypt and Edom are a desolation. In ad70 the gentiles win and Israel looses(opposite Joel 3). Maybe I should have given Ezekiel 30:3 the day of the Lord is near again,lol...

Afternoon Bro - Joel 3 - tricky - I believe it's referring to the gospel days and there is some figurative hyperbole in there.

Adam Clarke:

Verse 1

For, behold, in those days - According to the preceding prophecy, these days should refer to Gospel times, or to such as should immediately precede them. But this is a part of the prophecy which is difficult to be understood. All interpreters are at variance upon it; some applying its principal parts to Cambyses; his unfortunate expedition to Egypt; the destruction of fifty thousand of his troops (by the moving pillars of sand) whom he had sent across the desert to plunder the rich temple of Jupiter Ammon; his return to Judea, and dying of a wound which he received from his own sword, in mounting his horse, which happened at Ecbatane, at the foot of Mount Carmel. On which his army, composed of different nations, seeing themselves without a head, fell out, and fought against each other, till the whole were destroyed. And this is supposed to be what Ezekiel means by Gog and Magog, and the destruction of the former. See Ezekiel 38 and 39.


Others apply this to the victories gained by the Maccabees, and to the destruction brought upon the enemies of their country; while several consider the whole as a figurative prediction of the success of the Gospel among the nations of the earth. It may refer to those times in which the Jews shall be brought in with the fullness of the Gentiles, and be re-established in their own land. Or there may be portions in this prophecy that refer to all the events; and to others that have not fallen yet within the range of human conjecture, and will be only known when the time of fulfillment shall take place. In this painful uncertainty, rendered still more so by the discordant opinions of many wise and learned men, it appears to be my province, as I have nothing in the form of a new conjecture to offer, to confine myself to an explanation of the phraseology of the chapter; and then leave the reader to apply it as may seem best to his own judgment.


I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem - This may refer to the return from the Babylonish captivity; extending also to the restoration of Israel, or the ten tribes.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Here's what I fink:

Joel 3:1 For behold, in those days and at that time,When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

The above refers to a spiritual restoration not a physical one of the nation.

We know that the kingdom is a spiritual one (not the one Farrysees were hoping for coming with observation - Luke 17:20 "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation") and that the true Jews were being brought into that kingdom:

Rom 2:28 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

We know that they were coming to the true Jerusalem from Hebrews

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels.

And we know that what was sought after was not a "physical restoration of Jerusalem the dirt based city" from this:

Heb 11:10 for he was looking for the city having the foundations, whose artificer and constructor is God.

Heb 11:16 and if, indeed, they had been mindful of that from which they came forth, they might have had an opportunity to return.

1 Cor 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

So what we have is:

Natural temple ------> Spiritual temple
Natural Priesthood ------> Spiritual Priesthood
Natural Jerusalem ------> Spiritual Jerusalem

All in existence now.

 

[delirious]

Here, you are incorrectly conflating "this present age [singular]" (what is commonly called "the Church age" though some refer to it as the age of the Spirit) with "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that Jesus was speaking of to His Jewish disciples, and which will [futurely] conclude the age they were standing in and speaking out from. (THAT age, not this present age/the Church age/the age of the Spirit, if you will).

Dispensational ASSUMPTIONS again! "Church age" Where does Scripture call the current age we are living in as only applying to the "church" and then He will go back to dealing with "Israel"? Give me one EXPLICIT Scripture.

The rest of this post #182 by you is riddled with more dispensational ASSUMPTIONS! The whole thing!

No. "Age [singular]" connects with the earth... "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" refers to eternity/the eternal state (i.e. forever, as we call it).

And where do you get this from Scripture? Where does the Scripture EXPLICITILY support this ASSUMPTION by you? It's dispensational dogma.

 

[delirious]

Already said... it is a duration of time, but in 2Th1 it is only referring to the "DARK"/"IN THE NIGHT" (trib/7-yr/70th-Wk) portion, not its entirety (incl'g the entire MK following).

Dispensational ASSUMPTION. Scripture nowhere EXPLICITLY states the "last day" when saints are resurrected is over 1,000 years long. I find this funny since dispensationalists accuse amillennialists like myself of "allegorizing and spiritualizing" Scripture to say whatever we want.

No. Raised "IN the Last Day" is still true, because Daniel/OT saints and even future Trib saints are indeed resurrected WITHIN that "LAST" Day (the 7th [millennium] of 7; the "in the third day" [since His "return to My place UNTIL"] of the Hosea 5:15-6:3 passage speaking of Israel [involving LIVING persons, just like Ezek37:12-14,20-23 and Rom11:15 and Dan12:1-3,4,10; etc],...)

You are completely twisting Scripture. I am reading it for what it says. You MUST claim that the 1,000 year millennial kingdom, as well as the little season of satan at the end (Rev 20: 7), as well as the seven year tribulation, all occur as the LAST DAY.

So you have 7 + 1000 + "little season of Satan in Rev 20: 7" = Last Day. LOL! I don't mean to be rude Watermark. I think you are a good guy and passionate for your view but Scripture does not support it.

You reference the "7th millennium" being the "last day" but it's over 1,000 years in your system. So it still doesn't fit even if I agree with your interpretation which I obviously don't.

Premillennialism fails the test of Scripture on this merit alone. Unless you let go of your dispensational teachings you will never see what Scripture is actually saying.

I don't have any ASSUMPTIONS like your dispensationalism is riddled with. I gave you EXPLICIT Scripture in my original post for why a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible.

You have not refuted any of them but just made them same mistake over and over in your posts. Reading TONS of dispensational ASSUMPTIONS into everything you post. Read the Scriptures for what they say and don't add anything.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I've already gove over (in different threads) the two "RETURN" passages and what He does then (thereafter):

--Lk19:12,15,17,19

--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!



Until you grasp this, you will continue to conflate things incorrectly

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The Day of the Lord" / "IN THAT DAY" includes (ALL 3):

--the DARK portion

--the SUN of righteousness ARISE portion

--the reign... GLORIOUSLY portion


...as I've pointed out



See the parallel of Rev19:19/16:14-16/Rev20 with Isaiah 24:21-22[23]… and note the "and after many days" [with its TWO separate "PUNISH" words and instances] which time period Amill-teaching disregards altogether!

 

[iamsoandso]

Afternoon Bro - Joel 3 - tricky - I believe it's referring to the gospel days and there is some figurative hyperbole in there.

Adam Clarke:

Verse 1

For, behold, in those days - According to the preceding prophecy, these days should refer to Gospel times, or to such as should immediately precede them. But this is a part of the prophecy which is difficult to be understood. All interpreters are at variance upon it; some applying its principal parts to Cambyses; his unfortunate expedition to Egypt; the destruction of fifty thousand of his troops (by the moving pillars of sand) whom he had sent across the desert to plunder the rich temple of Jupiter Ammon; his return to Judea, and dying of a wound which he received from his own sword, in mounting his horse, which happened at Ecbatane, at the foot of Mount Carmel. On which his army, composed of different nations, seeing themselves without a head, fell out, and fought against each other, till the whole were destroyed. And this is supposed to be what Ezekiel means by Gog and Magog, and the destruction of the former. See Ezekiel 38 and 39.


Others apply this to the victories gained by the Maccabees, and to the destruction brought upon the enemies of their country; while several consider the whole as a figurative prediction of the success of the Gospel among the nations of the earth. It may refer to those times in which the Jews shall be brought in with the fullness of the Gentiles, and be re-established in their own land. Or there may be portions in this prophecy that refer to all the events; and to others that have not fallen yet within the range of human conjecture, and will be only known when the time of fulfillment shall take place. In this painful uncertainty, rendered still more so by the discordant opinions of many wise and learned men, it appears to be my province, as I have nothing in the form of a new conjecture to offer, to confine myself to an explanation of the phraseology of the chapter; and then leave the reader to apply it as may seem best to his own judgment.


I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem - This may refer to the return from the Babylonish captivity; extending also to the restoration of Israel, or the ten tribes.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Here's what I fink:

Joel 3:1 For behold, in those days and at that time,When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

The above refers to a spiritual restoration not a physical one of the nation.

We know that the kingdom is a spiritual one (not the one Farrysees were hoping for coming with observation - Luke 17:20 "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation") and that the true Jews were being brought into that kingdom:

Rom 2:28 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

We know that they were coming to the true Jerusalem from Hebrews

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels.

And we know that what was sought after was not a "physical restoration of Jerusalem the dirt based city" from this:

Heb 11:10 for he was looking for the city having the foundations, whose artificer and constructor is God.

Heb 11:16 and if, indeed, they had been mindful of that from which they came forth, they might have had an opportunity to return.

1 Cor 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

So what we have is:

Natural temple ------> Spiritual temple
Natural Priesthood ------> Spiritual Priesthood
Natural Jerusalem ------> Spiritual Jerusalem

All in existence now.

lol,You keep quoting Adam Clarke and I realize you admire him but if you would consider to others he is as significant as if you googled another chat forum and posted a page from pg.4,,post #122 (screen name Aclarke ect.)

 

[Locutus]

lol,You keep quoting Adam Clarke and I realize you admire him but if you would consider to others he is as significant as if you googled another chat forum and posted a page from pg.4,,post #122 (screen name Aclarke ect.)

I'm only using his commentary to show that nobody really has a clue in regards to Joel 3

I do like most of what Adam C had to say, I don't agree with his amill ideas him being a Methodist, but many times I think he's bang on the money.

So what do YOU think about Joel 3 bro? - Yer question alot but say little .

What's the view from atop the fence?

 

[delirious]

^ I've already gove over (in different threads) the two "RETURN" passages and what He does then (thereafter):

--Lk19:12,15,17,19

Let's look at these. Verse 12 "He returns with a kingdom" Where does it say Christ is setting His kingdom up on this earth for 1,000 years? It doesn't.

Verse 15,17,19 He JUDGES the people who have been trading with His money. That's the Great White Throne judgement when Christ returns and judges everybody both good and bad at the same time.

Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!

What about the context of Luke 12 that you ignored? In verse 32, he calls them "his little flock" when referring to the apostles. Then in verses 33-34 he tells them to do good and "give alms" while He is away. Then verses 35-36:

Luke 19: 35-36, "“Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately."

Jesus is telling all believers to be ready for when he returns in this parable. That is obvious to anyone who reads it. So.....

when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!

How are believers at this "wedding", as dispensationalists teach, when Jesus doesn't come for them until after?

I'm sorry Watermark, it is you who conflate and don't understand because you read dispensationalism into everything you read.