Question(s) to those who believe salvation can be lost
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They were in a state of being convicted . . . only . . . they never followed through to being saved. They were probably even church-goers and involved with the ministry itself, but the inner man never received Christ--just kept putting Him off because there were some things in the world they were not yet ready to let go of. Finally the world's call became too great for them to resist and they returned to their meal of vomit and mire.
These passages in Hebrews describe those that were on the very cusp of receiving Christ--yet did not.
Hey, the churches are full of them.
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:39).
But, Paul says they WE are them that believe unto salvation. WE are not THEM, WE can never be THEM . . . English will spoil many a false doctrine. Paul even says that WE were once one of THEM.
These passages in Hebrews describe those that were on the very cusp of receiving Christ--yet did not.
Hey, the churches are full of them.
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:39).
But, Paul says they WE are them that believe unto salvation. WE are not THEM, WE can never be THEM . . . English will spoil many a false doctrine. Paul even says that WE were once one of THEM.
What about if someone confesses to be a Christian and then turns from God...Denies him never talks to him or pay him any reverence, doesn't listen to him, or obey him in any way and dies in that state.
Was the person just not ever truly saved or did they turn from God and pretty much just give their salvation back and not accept it or will they still be saved anyhow?
I've heard people say before that someone could still be saved when they die.... even if they say they got saved and then turn back and say they are not saved and become an atheist. I find that one hard to believe...
Was the person just not ever truly saved or did they turn from God and pretty much just give their salvation back and not accept it or will they still be saved anyhow?
I've heard people say before that someone could still be saved when they die.... even if they say they got saved and then turn back and say they are not saved and become an atheist. I find that one hard to believe...
What about if someone confesses to be a Christian and then turns from God...Denies him never talks to him or pay him any reverence, doesn't listen to him, or obey him in any way and dies in that state.
Was the person just not ever truly saved or did they turn from God and pretty much just give their salvation back and not accept it or will they still be saved anyhow?
I've heard people say before that someone could still be saved when they die.... even if they say they got saved and then turn back and say they are not saved and become an atheist. I find that one hard to believe...
Was the person just not ever truly saved or did they turn from God and pretty much just give their salvation back and not accept it or will they still be saved anyhow?
I've heard people say before that someone could still be saved when they die.... even if they say they got saved and then turn back and say they are not saved and become an atheist. I find that one hard to believe...
One could just as easily stop believing in the Sun as to deny the Son.
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Please tell me about the man in I Corinthians 5 that was delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Did he lose his salvation?
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" (I Corinthians 5:1-6).
Verse 6 would appear to clinch it, seeing as how Paul is saying one rotten apple can spoil the whole bushel.
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" (I Corinthians 5:1-6).
Verse 6 would appear to clinch it, seeing as how Paul is saying one rotten apple can spoil the whole bushel.
I grew up Pentecostal with a Grandfather and Father who were both Bible teachers, Evangelists, and preacher/pastors, and they never preached you could lose your salvation from the viewpoint of God, but from the viewpoint of being the person who chooses to deny God and walk away.
The term most used then was backslider. Here is what David's son Solomon wrote concerning the backslider which fits a perfect description of someone not filled nor saved of God:
Proverbs 14:
14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways:
And by what Solomon (the wisest man ever) wrote, the backslider is an excellent term for someone who knew God and walked away from God on their accord!!
The term most used then was backslider. Here is what David's son Solomon wrote concerning the backslider which fits a perfect description of someone not filled nor saved of God:
Proverbs 14:
14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways:
And by what Solomon (the wisest man ever) wrote, the backslider is an excellent term for someone who knew God and walked away from God on their accord!!
I disagree with your interpretation .. this next portion of scripture declares clearly again that some who have escaped through the Way of the LORD Jesus Christ have lost their salvation..
2 Peter 2: KJV
17 "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. {18} For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. {19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. {20} For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
2 Peter 2: KJV
17 "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. {18} For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. {19} While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. {20} For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. {22} But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
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Did the man cease to believe Jesus and trust in the atonement Jesus secured for him on the cross??
Does the scripture you post say anything about the mans belief or lack there of??
It talks about his sexual sin.. Which was very serious.. And so It was advised to give that man over to the unbelieving worldly authorities to be executed.. This does not mean the guy was damned to hell.. The verses do not say anything about what He believed or disbelieved about Jesus and the way of salvation..
There has been more then a few people who have committed terrible crimes and who have been executed for their crimes who i believe in the end believed Jesus and trusted in the Atonement Jesus secured for them.. And i believe they will be saved..
That in fact is good news for some who are worried because they think their sins are too bad for them to be forgiven. Mass murderers and the worst of sex offenders can be forgiven through the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
Does the scripture you post say anything about the mans belief or lack there of??
It talks about his sexual sin.. Which was very serious.. And so It was advised to give that man over to the unbelieving worldly authorities to be executed.. This does not mean the guy was damned to hell.. The verses do not say anything about what He believed or disbelieved about Jesus and the way of salvation..
There has been more then a few people who have committed terrible crimes and who have been executed for their crimes who i believe in the end believed Jesus and trusted in the Atonement Jesus secured for them.. And i believe they will be saved..
That in fact is good news for some who are worried because they think their sins are too bad for them to be forgiven. Mass murderers and the worst of sex offenders can be forgiven through the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
Context explains the issue
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (II Peter 2:1).
The whole chapter is speaking about the same group of people . . . false teachers, no matter how much some want to claim that these were once Blood-washed believers, they are not. They have been bought with a price, as has every single human on this planet. These people have heard the Gospel and they have rejected it. They are the people of Romans 1:18ff. They know the plan of salvation, they know of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, they know that Jesus saves whomsoever will that may wish it . . . but they never wanted it.
But they are religious . . . very religious. They follow the Apostles around and try to come in and steal their fruit.
It is not uncommon for people that have been churchgoers all their lives to one day suddenly realize that they were living a lie - pretending to be saved - and yet they were not. Many of them were Sunday school teachers, even preachers that handled the Word of God and preached and taught salvation for years but had never themselves truly trusted the Lord. These are the happy stories. Others become disillusioned by the whole church thing and return to the lifestyle they knew before they were saved.
Knowing something is not the same as possessing something. Many people have a 'head' knowledge of Christ . . . more than enough to be saved . . . but they will miss heaven by about 18 inches, which is the distance between the head and the heart.
If folks want to suppress eternal security, that's fine - believe what they want to believe . . . but they can't do it by handling the Word of God deceitfully.
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (II Peter 2:1).
The whole chapter is speaking about the same group of people . . . false teachers, no matter how much some want to claim that these were once Blood-washed believers, they are not. They have been bought with a price, as has every single human on this planet. These people have heard the Gospel and they have rejected it. They are the people of Romans 1:18ff. They know the plan of salvation, they know of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, they know that Jesus saves whomsoever will that may wish it . . . but they never wanted it.
But they are religious . . . very religious. They follow the Apostles around and try to come in and steal their fruit.
It is not uncommon for people that have been churchgoers all their lives to one day suddenly realize that they were living a lie - pretending to be saved - and yet they were not. Many of them were Sunday school teachers, even preachers that handled the Word of God and preached and taught salvation for years but had never themselves truly trusted the Lord. These are the happy stories. Others become disillusioned by the whole church thing and return to the lifestyle they knew before they were saved.
Knowing something is not the same as possessing something. Many people have a 'head' knowledge of Christ . . . more than enough to be saved . . . but they will miss heaven by about 18 inches, which is the distance between the head and the heart.
If folks want to suppress eternal security, that's fine - believe what they want to believe . . . but they can't do it by handling the Word of God deceitfully.
I didn't read every post on this topic (TL/DR), but it seems there was no one who was supporting the idea that those who "lose" their salvation can never "get it back".
I suppose the scripture references you provided give us the answer. That's exactly what those verses say in isolation.
The big question is, what do we do with scriptures like that? Do we sweep them aside?
Are they any less true than the rest of the inspired word? Why are they there?
Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
I suppose the scripture references you provided give us the answer. That's exactly what those verses say in isolation.
The big question is, what do we do with scriptures like that? Do we sweep them aside?
Are they any less true than the rest of the inspired word? Why are they there?
Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
What? worldly authorities? The passage says delivered unto SATAN . . . for the destruction of the flesh. A sinner is not damned to hell while they are alive, but they can have their bodies destroyed. Perhaps you have seen people whose bodies are merely shells that walk up and down our streets? Alcohol and tobacco have ravished them. Or old prostitutes whose bodies have been used up? or drug addicts laying out in the streets. They are not in flames, but their life is a living hell.
At any rate, don't change the meaning of a passage to fit your doctrinal preferences.
At any rate, don't change the meaning of a passage to fit your doctrinal preferences.
Your response is most confusing. You say he might have been saved or he might be still lost but just so long as he doesn't 'cease' to believe in Jesus . . . he'll be all right.
You are saying that a person can live a life of sin no matter how degrading, as long as he doesn't 'cease' believing in Jesus?
Are you saying that you have a modified anti-OSAS view?
Because gosh, you can't have this guy lose his salvation now can you, because that would mean that he could never get it back (according to your earlier statement). And we both know the problem you will have with that theory, right?
Live as wicked at the Devil, only, just don't stop believing, and you'll be okay.
Here is your earlier statement . . .
You are saying that a person can live a life of sin no matter how degrading, as long as he doesn't 'cease' believing in Jesus?
Are you saying that you have a modified anti-OSAS view?
Because gosh, you can't have this guy lose his salvation now can you, because that would mean that he could never get it back (according to your earlier statement). And we both know the problem you will have with that theory, right?
Live as wicked at the Devil, only, just don't stop believing, and you'll be okay.
Here is your earlier statement . . .
You mean, like the police? What worldly authorities? Are you saying the lieutenants of the 'prince of the power of the air?'
I'll stick with Satan . . . that's what the text says and I see no reason for the ambiguity.
And where do you get 'executed?'
If he was executed then how does he show up again in II Corinthians?
I'll stick with Satan . . . that's what the text says and I see no reason for the ambiguity.
And where do you get 'executed?'
If he was executed then how does he show up again in II Corinthians?