Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[ForestGreenCook]

which one do you think supports that in particular?

John 3:16?

For God so loved the world (what world?) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present tense) not will belief (future tense) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The world is the "world of believers" not the whole world. Who is going to believe? Answer: those who are regenerated (his elect) that he choose before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and gave to Jesus to die for their sins and secure their destination in heaven. (John 6:37-39).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

To those who oppose calvinism i would like to ask: WHAT evidence would have to be presented to you, for you to change your mind?

For me it would be verses that mention some poeple that Jesus didnt die for, or verses that say all things including SIN is predestinated.

God does not love the whole world of mankind. Rev 3:19, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Ps 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "PLAGUED" (Greek = divinely punished) like other men. Malachi 1:2-3, I have loved you, saith the Lord, Yet ye say, wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord; yet I loved Jacob, And hated Esau. Also in Romans 9:9-16. If God loves the whole world of mankind, why would he say , " Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (1 John 2:15.).

 

[7seasrekeyed]

For God so loved the world (what world?) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present tense) not will belief (future tense) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The world is the "world of believers" not the whole world. Who is going to believe? Answer: those who are regenerated (his elect) that he choose before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and gave to Jesus to die for their sins and secure their destination in heaven. (John 6:37-39).

LOL!

 

[Hevosmies]

For God so loved the world (what world?) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present tense) not will belief (future tense) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The world is the "world of believers" not the whole world. Who is going to believe? Answer: those who are regenerated (his elect) that he choose before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and gave to Jesus to die for their sins and secure their destination in heaven. (John 6:37-39).

Here we see calvinism ADDING to the scriptures again.

John 3:16 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:

For God so loved the world [of believers] that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Timothy 2:4 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:
Who will have all [elect] men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:
And he is the propitiation for our sins [the elect]: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world[of believers/elect].

Its unbelivable how many texts you gotta twist and turn to be a calvinist.

Here are those verses UNCORRUPTED with nothing added from the pure KJV BIBLE:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And one more:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Gospel to every creature huh? The Good news that Jesus died for them, and command them to repent and believe? The good news that Jesus paid the price? The good news that Jesus is coming to setup His kingdom here on earth one of these days? The good news that Jesus is going to catch us into the clouds in glorified resurrection bodies with no more sickness, no more pain, no more tears, no more infections, no more dentists, GLORY TO GOD!

Or.... womp womp womp: Preach the bad news that most likely you are not elect and God has nothing for you, tough luck. But hey, lets preach anyway because we are totally making a difference.

Here is a pro-tip for the people who arent familiar with calvinism yet, one way to spot one a mile away is that they WILL NOT tell someone Jesus died for them. EVER. They use words like "Jesus died for His people, and if you put your faith in Jesus". Its kind of a way to say, Jesus died for you, but it has to be made impersonal because they cant know Jesus REALLY died for them, cause maybe that poor sob isnt elect.

 

[carl11]

Here we see calvinism ADDING to the scriptures again.

John 3:16 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:

For God so loved the world [of believers] that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Timothy 2:4 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:
Who will have all [elect] men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:
And he is the propitiation for our sins [the elect]: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world[of believers/elect].

Its unbelivable how many texts you gotta twist and turn to be a calvinist.

Here are those verses UNCORRUPTED with nothing added from the pure KJV BIBLE:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And one more:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Gospel to every creature huh? The Good news that Jesus died for them, and command them to repent and believe? The good news that Jesus paid the price? The good news that Jesus is coming to setup His kingdom here on earth one of these days? The good news that Jesus is going to catch us into the clouds in glorified resurrection bodies with no more sickness, no more pain, no more tears, no more infections, no more dentists, GLORY TO GOD!

Or.... womp womp womp: Preach the bad news that most likely you are not elect and God has nothing for you, tough luck. But hey, lets preach anyway because we are totally making a difference.

Here is a pro-tip for the people who arent familiar with calvinism yet, one way to spot one a mile away is that they WILL NOT tell someone Jesus died for them. EVER. They use words like "Jesus died for His people, and if you put your faith in Jesus". Its kind of a way to say, Jesus died for you, but it has to be made impersonal because they cant know Jesus REALLY died for them, cause maybe that poor sob isnt elect.

It’s very easy to isolate the verses above to show he means everybody, all. But one has to look at many other verses to compare to those mentioned above like for instance 1Cor. 15:22 who is the “all” mentioned here. Likewise in Ezk. 34 does it mention all or only a select group of people.

 

[preacher4truth]

It’s very easy to isolate the verses above to show he means everybody, all. But one has to look at many other verses to compare to those mentioned above like for instance 1Cor. 15:22 who is the “all” mentioned here. Likewise in Ezk. 34 does it mention all or only a select group of people.

1 Corinthians 15:22 is every single person who has ever lived! Wait...never mind!

 

[Hevosmies]

1 Corinthians 15:22 is every single person who has ever lived! Wait...never mind!

Every individual in Adam dies, every individual in Christ is made alive.

Christ is resurrection and the life. Some people will be resurrected to damnation some to eternal life. Daniel 12:2; etc

Romans 5:12 doesnt help the calvinist case at all either. They are always claiming that we believe in universalism, well the tables are turned.

What is the calvinist interpretation of Romans 5:12 and 1 Cor 15:22?

Is it that the "all" refers only to the elect?
The problem would be it says death passed unto ALL MEN in Adam, surely thats not just the elect to whom it was passed? What is the calvinist view here?

 

[trofimus]

We have a free choice and all our choices are predetermined and certain.

The elect ones are the ones God chosen to give them enough of His grace to cause them to freely come to Him. The rest is left in their free and evil desires or sometimes hardened in their free and evil desires.

God wants all people to be saved, to come to truth, because He is love and merciful. Higher reasons led Him to limit the number of saved, though. These reasons are not revealed to us specifically, but generally it was needed for the best world to be created, because God, in His greatness, does only what is best.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

LOL!

You are, in your mind, grouping me as a believer in John Calvin's doctrine with the comment that I do not believe in man having a free will. I have never read John Calvin's teachings, but understand, by hearsay, that he does not believe in man's free will. I believe that God has given man a free will to make his own choices as how he wants to live his life here on earth, but pertaining to his eternal salvation, that is determined by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man.

Here we see calvinism ADDING to the scriptures again.

John 3:16 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:

For God so loved the world [of believers] that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Timothy 2:4 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:
Who will have all [elect] men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2 the geneva calvie corrupted translation:
And he is the propitiation for our sins [the elect]: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world[of believers/elect].

Its unbelivable how many texts you gotta twist and turn to be a calvinist.

Here are those verses UNCORRUPTED with nothing added from the pure KJV BIBLE:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And one more:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Gospel to every creature huh? The Good news that Jesus died for them, and command them to repent and believe? The good news that Jesus paid the price? The good news that Jesus is coming to setup His kingdom here on earth one of these days? The good news that Jesus is going to catch us into the clouds in glorified resurrection bodies with no more sickness, no more pain, no more tears, no more infections, no more dentists, GLORY TO GOD!

Or.... womp womp womp: Preach the bad news that most likely you are not elect and God has nothing for you, tough luck. But hey, lets preach anyway because we are totally making a difference.

Here is a pro-tip for the people who arent familiar with calvinism yet, one way to spot one a mile away is that they WILL NOT tell someone Jesus died for them. EVER. They use words like "Jesus died for His people, and if you put your faith in Jesus". Its kind of a way to say, Jesus died for you, but it has to be made impersonal because they cant know Jesus REALLY died for them, cause maybe that poor sob isnt elect.

All scriptures must harmonize to be the doctrine that Jesus taught. There are many scriptures that you fail to comment on because they will not harmonize with your determination on how man has to play a part in his eternal salvation, limiting God's power in accomplishing his will. I do understand your position. As long as man insists on getting eternal salvation by his own efforts, God will not reveal doctrinal truths to him until he denies himself and gives God credit. God is a jealous God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We have a free choice and all our choices are predetermined and certain.

The elect ones are the ones God chosen to give them enough of His grace to cause them to freely come to Him. The rest is left in their free and evil desires or sometimes hardened in their free and evil desires.

God wants all people to be saved, to come to truth, because He is love and merciful. Higher reasons led Him to limit the number of saved, though. These reasons are not revealed to us specifically, but generally it was needed for the best world to be created, because God, in His greatness, does only what is best.

Ps 53:2-3 tells us why God choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and had his Son purify them so he would have a people that would praise and honor him. God knows what our choices will be before we think them, but he did not predestine them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Every individual in Adam dies, every individual in Christ is made alive.

Christ is resurrection and the life. Some people will be resurrected to damnation some to eternal life. Daniel 12:2; etc

Romans 5:12 doesnt help the calvinist case at all either. They are always claiming that we believe in universalism, well the tables are turned.

What is the calvinist interpretation of Romans 5:12 and 1 Cor 15:22?

Is it that the "all" refers only to the elect?
The problem would be it says death passed unto ALL MEN in Adam, surely thats not just the elect to whom it was passed? What is the calvinist view here?

I do not claim to be a follower of Calvin's teachings and do not reference his writings, but the people on this forum have accused me of such. The "ALL" refers to all mankind as receiving the depravity of Adam. All mankind is born into this world as totally depraved as natural men, void of the Spirit, as described in (1 Cor 2:14) and stay in that state until some are regenerated, as described in Eph 2, especially in verse 5.

 

[carl11]

Every individual in Adam dies, every individual in Christ is made alive.

Christ is resurrection and the life. Some people will be resurrected to damnation some to eternal life. Daniel 12:2; etc

Romans 5:12 doesnt help the calvinist case at all either. They are always claiming that we believe in universalism, well the tables are turned.

What is the calvinist interpretation of Romans 5:12 and 1 Cor 15:22?

Is it that the "all" refers only to the elect?
The problem would be it says death passed unto ALL MEN in Adam, surely thats not just the elect to whom it was passed? What is the calvinist view here?

There is no problem here because every single person in this world will die in one form or another the end result is because of sin. You yourself have already answered your own question by quoting Dan. 12. So by this you should realize that it is not all as ever single person but as all in the elect. Look at the wheat and tares and the sheep and the goats. Is God saying all as in every single person or rather all as in the elect.

 

[trofimus]

Ps 53:2-3 tells us why God choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and had his Son purify them so he would have a people that would praise and honor him. God knows what our choices will be before we think them, but he did not predestine them.

"2 God looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any that understood, or sought after God. 3 They have all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, there is not even one."

Not sure where you see that in this verse...

 

[Hevosmies]

God wants all people to be saved, to come to truth, because He is love and merciful. Higher reasons led Him to limit the number of saved, though.

If this is the case, the verses about God wanting all to be saved are USELESS verses. Since He actually doesn't want all to be saved, because of the HIGHER REASONS you mentioned.

There is just no good way to put it. The doctrine of God picking and choosing everyone who is saved and who is not saved just does not line up with the Bible.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

If this is the case, the verses about God wanting all to be saved are USELESS verses. Since He actually doesn't want all to be saved, because of the HIGHER REASONS you mentioned.

There is just no good way to put it. The doctrine of God picking and choosing everyone who is saved and who is not saved just does not line up with the Bible.

Yea, like there is only just so much room in heaven . . . Calvinists are limiting God as an architect.

 

[trofimus]

If this is the case, the verses about God wanting all to be saved are USELESS verses. Since He actually doesn't want all to be saved, because of the HIGHER REASONS you mentioned.

There is just no good way to put it. The doctrine of God picking and choosing everyone who is saved and who is not saved just does not line up with the Bible.

These verses are not useless, show us who God is and that He is good.

His desire to save all people takes effect in his final result, but not fully, only partially.

His final will is composed of all His inclinations and of all His knowledge and wisdom.

Your will and reason is also not acting on just one inclination you have in yourself, but is always a result of various influences, thoughts and parameters. I am not sure why you still cant grasp this intuitive, logical and simple concept.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

These verses are not useless, show us who God is and that He is good.

His desire to save all people takes effect in his final result, but not fully, only partially.

His final will is composed of all His inclinations and of all His knowledge and wisdom.

Calvinists like to place their limitations on God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"2 God looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there were any that understood, or sought after God. 3 They have all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, there is not even one."

Not sure where you see that in this verse...

In the state all mankind was in, by his foreknowledge, we would have all gone to everlasting hell, had God not chosen some to be saved.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If this is the case, the verses about God wanting all to be saved are USELESS verses. Since He actually doesn't want all to be saved, because of the HIGHER REASONS you mentioned.

There is just no good way to put it. The doctrine of God picking and choosing everyone who is saved and who is not saved just does not line up with the Bible.

It would if you would study from the KJV.

 

[trofimus]

In the state all mankind was in, by his foreknowledge, we would have all gone to everlasting hell, had God not chosen some to be saved.

OK, lets ignore that its a poetry and that Bible says that Daniel, Noah and Job would save themselves.

Lets say that really all individuals ever would go to hell had God not chosen some to be saved. Still the question remains - why did He not chose all, but only a few.

And another questions remain:
a) how does this choosing work and what is our will doing before that, in that and after that
b) why are all people so bad and corrupted and if they can change themselves or if they are without any hope and without any guilt, then