Has the law been put aside? If so, when?
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You are making the words of Paul say something other than what he meant.
Just a few verses prior he had this to say about the law.
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
And then says this prior to that.
Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Just a few verses prior he had this to say about the law.
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
And then says this prior to that.
Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
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No, Isaiah 65 is describing the Great White Throne Judgment. A period of time after the second resurrection when the NHNE is established (vs. 17). This is pictured as the Last Great Day (the high day after Tabernacles). This will be the chance most will have of defeating Satan. Some people like their evil ways and will side with Satan to try and bring down Jerusalem, and thus the great discomfit. I won't call it a war as it is kind of one sided. I read the book, the Lord wins. 
Are you saying that Paul speaks out of both sides of his mouth, saying one thing in one verse and in another going back on what he just said? Many believe that of Paul, Christ, and the Father.
There are TWO truths. Both are the truth. One does NOT cancel out the other.
Justified: one thing, something we can't earn by working at it. We can't save ourselves.
However, if we love the Lord, if we learn how the Lord created the world to work well for us, if we want to be great in the kingdom of heaven we will listen to the law that is part of that creation.
Are you saying that you are interested in the salvation God can give you but you are not interested in anything else about Him? If that is how it is with you it sounds like a stupid position to take to me.
There are TWO truths. Both are the truth. One does NOT cancel out the other.
Justified: one thing, something we can't earn by working at it. We can't save ourselves.
However, if we love the Lord, if we learn how the Lord created the world to work well for us, if we want to be great in the kingdom of heaven we will listen to the law that is part of that creation.
Are you saying that you are interested in the salvation God can give you but you are not interested in anything else about Him? If that is how it is with you it sounds like a stupid position to take to me.
Would you show that Sabbath keeping is required in order for us to be saved?
Scripture tells you and I that God (God is not replaced by Jesus) created the seventh day for us, we are to rest from our regular work and rest on that day. Or do you have a special scripture that excludes that? My scripture does not say keeping this day is required for salvation, you must have a special bible with such in it.. I wouldn't trust such a book I should think.
Scripture tells you and I that God (God is not replaced by Jesus) created the seventh day for us, we are to rest from our regular work and rest on that day. Or do you have a special scripture that excludes that? My scripture does not say keeping this day is required for salvation, you must have a special bible with such in it.. I wouldn't trust such a book I should think.
That is utter madness that the law was put aside for how can it be, but the physical ordinances were put away for Jesus nailed them to His cross for they were contrary to us for they had no bearing on spiritual salvation.
Paul said we do not void out the law through faith, but we establish the law, live up to the law, and the law is spiritual and holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good, the moral laws, laws of love, which the ten commandments are laws of love towards God, and people, and the Spirit is our sabbath, a spiritual rest.
The Bible says if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for it is the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.
A Spirit led life is not under the law, because their sins are forgiven, and they are not sinning, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.
If a person holds unto sin they can confess Christ all they want, but they are under the law because a Spirit led life will not sin, and only a person led of the Spirit is not under the law.
We always have to obey the law, and by the Spirit we can do it.
And people should understand when Paul speaks according to the flesh, for by the flesh we cannot live up to the law, but by the Spirit we can live up to the law.
The same as people should understand when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, and Spirit, regarding faith, for we are saved by faith when we first come to Christ for that is all we can do.
But after we receive the Spirit we have to have charity, love in action, works to have faith, which Paul said he could have all faith so they he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity then he is nothing, and said people that lack have erred from the faith.
But then James pointed out faith without works is dead, and he points out charity, feed and clothe people if you can.
People argue concerning saved by works, and not saved by works, but Paul and James are saying the same thing concerning works after a person receives the Spirit, that you have to have those works or you have no faith, which Paul said you have no faith if you do not have those works.
Paul and James say the same thing all the while people argue between the two.
We always have to obey the law, and live up to the law, but we cannot do it by the flesh, the Old Testament, but we can do it by the Spirit, the New Testament, for the fruits of the Spirit cause us to love people perfectly which is the fulfilling of the law, but what we are doing is not ignoring the written law but living up to it.
When the Bible says we are saved by faith and not the letter of the law it only means that we cannot live up to the law by a fleshy effort for we will not love people perfectly, but a Spirit led life will fulfill the law because they can love people perfectly.
Paul said we do not void out the law through faith, but we establish the law, live up to the law, and the law is spiritual and holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good, the moral laws, laws of love, which the ten commandments are laws of love towards God, and people, and the Spirit is our sabbath, a spiritual rest.
The Bible says if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for it is the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.
A Spirit led life is not under the law, because their sins are forgiven, and they are not sinning, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.
If a person holds unto sin they can confess Christ all they want, but they are under the law because a Spirit led life will not sin, and only a person led of the Spirit is not under the law.
We always have to obey the law, and by the Spirit we can do it.
And people should understand when Paul speaks according to the flesh, for by the flesh we cannot live up to the law, but by the Spirit we can live up to the law.
The same as people should understand when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, and Spirit, regarding faith, for we are saved by faith when we first come to Christ for that is all we can do.
But after we receive the Spirit we have to have charity, love in action, works to have faith, which Paul said he could have all faith so they he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity then he is nothing, and said people that lack have erred from the faith.
But then James pointed out faith without works is dead, and he points out charity, feed and clothe people if you can.
People argue concerning saved by works, and not saved by works, but Paul and James are saying the same thing concerning works after a person receives the Spirit, that you have to have those works or you have no faith, which Paul said you have no faith if you do not have those works.
Paul and James say the same thing all the while people argue between the two.
We always have to obey the law, and live up to the law, but we cannot do it by the flesh, the Old Testament, but we can do it by the Spirit, the New Testament, for the fruits of the Spirit cause us to love people perfectly which is the fulfilling of the law, but what we are doing is not ignoring the written law but living up to it.
When the Bible says we are saved by faith and not the letter of the law it only means that we cannot live up to the law by a fleshy effort for we will not love people perfectly, but a Spirit led life will fulfill the law because they can love people perfectly.
Please give scripture back up for saying that the law is contrary to us. If that were so, then the 1195h psalm would no be of
God and if the psalms are not of God then all scripture would be in question. Each stanza of the 119th psalm praises the law.
Are you one of the people who want God to throw out the law because God doesn't give salvation based on it? Did you want God to let you earn salvation and do away with grace?
God and if the psalms are not of God then all scripture would be in question. Each stanza of the 119th psalm praises the law.
Are you one of the people who want God to throw out the law because God doesn't give salvation based on it? Did you want God to let you earn salvation and do away with grace?
That's a great point. And worth some discussion.
This will help you to better understabd where I am coming from.
We may be closer to agreement than you realize.
I'll take this further if you want to discuss it in more detail.
But let's start with this.
I see a difference between "the law" and "God's law". And so does the Apostle Paul.
In the scripture below he uses the terms "the law", "God's law", and "Christ's law".
Defining what he means in the parenthetical statements.
He says:
- I myself am not under the law (not under)
- I am not free from God’s law (different than the law)
- but am under Christ’s law (under)
1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
This will help you to better understabd where I am coming from.
We may be closer to agreement than you realize.
I'll take this further if you want to discuss it in more detail.
But let's start with this.
I see a difference between "the law" and "God's law". And so does the Apostle Paul.
In the scripture below he uses the terms "the law", "God's law", and "Christ's law".
Defining what he means in the parenthetical statements.
He says:
- I myself am not under the law (not under)
- I am not free from God’s law (different than the law)
- but am under Christ’s law (under)
1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
My understanding of salvation is that the result is a restored relationship.
I usually invite the Father to walk with me every day.
I find him to be loving and kind toward me. Not demanding and stern.
I am content in him. His Spirit fills me with an inner joy that defies my circumstances.
So, yes, I am very interested in something other than salvation.
Always mindful of him and his word and ways.
I usually invite the Father to walk with me every day.
I find him to be loving and kind toward me. Not demanding and stern.
I am content in him. His Spirit fills me with an inner joy that defies my circumstances.
So, yes, I am very interested in something other than salvation.
Always mindful of him and his word and ways.
Not in those words, but here is something to consider.
Galatians 3:11-12
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
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The teaching of the Apostle Paul was described this way.
Acts 18:13
“This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”
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And Stephen was described similarly before he was stoned to death.
Acts 6:11
Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, “We have heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.”
Galatians 3:11-12
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The teaching of the Apostle Paul was described this way.
Acts 18:13
“This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And Stephen was described similarly before he was stoned to death.
Acts 6:11
Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, “We have heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.”
How would you recommend harmonizing Romans 3:31 with Romans 3:20-21?
What definition of "establish" or "uphold" could be applied to make this work?
Romans 3:20-21
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
What definition of "establish" or "uphold" could be applied to make this work?
Romans 3:20-21
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
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2 Corinthians 3:5-8
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Do you not understand the scripture or just not believe them?
Romans 7:4-6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
The New Way in Christ is better than the old way in Moses. Its just too bad that the legalist and judaizer can't understand it.
There is no mixture of the two ways. If you try to follow a little bit of Moses you are bound to follow ALL of Moses laws. And if you are trying to follow All of Moses laws then you are completely contradicting Christianity which has given us Rest from all that unnecessary painting of the outside of the sepulchers.
I would say good luck with trying to be obedient to the law but there is no luck with that. All are doomed who try it.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
That means if you look to the law to justify your work, such as for a Saturday sabbath, then you are required to continue in all things written in the book of the law to do them, or you are cursed. But you are already cursed through your own thinking that you must work at the law because you can never fulfill it. The law will always condemn you.
There is only one place to go where there is no condemnation. That is the place we must stay and must not wander back into our own ways and back into death and condemnation. That place is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Do you not understand the scripture or just not believe them?
Romans 7:4-6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
The New Way in Christ is better than the old way in Moses. Its just too bad that the legalist and judaizer can't understand it.
There is no mixture of the two ways. If you try to follow a little bit of Moses you are bound to follow ALL of Moses laws. And if you are trying to follow All of Moses laws then you are completely contradicting Christianity which has given us Rest from all that unnecessary painting of the outside of the sepulchers.
I would say good luck with trying to be obedient to the law but there is no luck with that. All are doomed who try it.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
That means if you look to the law to justify your work, such as for a Saturday sabbath, then you are required to continue in all things written in the book of the law to do them, or you are cursed. But you are already cursed through your own thinking that you must work at the law because you can never fulfill it. The law will always condemn you.
There is only one place to go where there is no condemnation. That is the place we must stay and must not wander back into our own ways and back into death and condemnation. That place is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
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