Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

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iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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I'm only using his commentary to show that nobody really has a clue in regards to Joel 3 View attachment 190113

I do like most of what Adam C had to say, I don't agree with his amill ideas him being a Methodist, but many times I think he's bang on the money.

So what do YOU think about Joel 3 bro? - Yer question alot but say little .

What's the view from atop the fence?


lol,That's the second time in this thread you've pointed that I ask a lot of questions and say little. I think that pride might tempt a man to pretend to be a great teacher, and some might expect that but a good student questions are to me wise and which ever side of the fence I decide to dismount will have a good student who ask a lot of questions(view from the fence top)...

You mention his Methodist ideas in your post,,,G.W. Bush jr. also is Methodist. Do you remember his conversation with Jacques Chirac and Gog and Magog rising and so as Christians were to go to the war on terrorism? That made me realize he would have to see the Mill. at it's end and the devil loosed from the pit when the war began,lol
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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lol,That's the second time in this thread you've pointed that I ask a lot of questions and say little. I think that pride might tempt a man to pretend to be a great teacher, and some might expect that but a good student questions are to me wise and which ever side of the fence I decide to dismount will have a good student who ask a lot of questions(view from the fence top)...

You mention his Methodist ideas in your post,,,G.W. Bush jr. also is Methodist. Do you remember his conversation with Jacques Chirac and Gog and Magog rising and so as Christians were to go to the war on terrorism? That made me realize he would have to see the Mill. at it's end and the devil loosed from the pit when the war began,lol
No I don't recall the conversation with Chirac and Bush - as for Gog and Magog I think John in revelation is using the name figuratively as he does with Jerusalem as Babylon, Sodom and Egypt.

I know you claim to be outside the "camps" (are yer sure yer not part of that caravan crossing Mexico?) or claim to be a teacher but that should not prevent you from giving an opinion.

Yer pal Losephus.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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No I don't recall the conversation with Chirac and Bush - as for Gog and Magog I think John in revelation is using the name figuratively as he does with Jerusalem as Babylon, Sodom and Egypt.

I know you claim to be outside the "camps" (are yer sure yer not part of that caravan crossing Mexico?) or claim to be a teacher but that should not prevent you from giving an opinion.

Yer pal Losephus.

lol, I was born in Texas but have family in Mexico(came in a van they cared about to my wedding,snuck champagne out of the party and hid it in the van ),lol...but that don't count...

I think the Israel that rose in 1948 was about the same as the Bush thinking we were going to war with Gog/Magog(men acting out their idea of eschatology). But instead they took the very carnal kingdom God delivered a deadly wound in ad70 and was in the pit in Revelation 17:8 and decided to make an image of it and it stood upright like a man and the one who comes in his own name will rise in it.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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The OP was so long, that my response to the OP will have to come in (at least) 4 posts (forgive me... and I sure hope I don't have to try to EDIT it all, LOL):
Watermark, I just wanted to say I commend your fight and your defense of your eschatological views. Thank you for taking the time to read through my post and give a detailed response. The church needs passionate people to defend what they think the Scriptures are saying. I try to do the same which hopefully this thread shows.

It appears we are at an impasse and see things quite differently when it comes to eschatology. Nevertheless, I have enjoyed our spirited debate. :)
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Lol - i'll have to think about this "upright man" symbol of yours - news is on telly in a few mins - back later bro.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Regardless of how one views the millennium a num a num - Dispensational teaching from the likes of J.D. Pentecost fall apart when it states:

The church itself was the mystery. The fact that God was going to form Jews and Gentiles alike in one body was never revealed in the Old Testament and forms the mystery of which Paul speaks in Ephesians 3:1-7; Romans 16:25-27; Colossians 1:26-29. This whole mystery program was not revealed until after the rejection of Christ by Israel.”

From "Things to Come - A Study in Biblical Eschatology" written by J.D Pentecost.

Peter states that the day of Pentecost and thus the church was predicted by Joel:

Acts 2:16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:17  ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

And he claims that the prophets spoke of those days:

Acts 3:24  “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

They must be reading from the Texas Deceptus at the Dallas Theological Seminary.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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Isaiah 24:21-22[23]… and note the "and after many days" [with its TWO separate "PUNISH" words and instances] which time period Amill-teaching disregards altogether!
If I understand you correctly it looks like you are reading a millennium in between these "two punishings". I only see "one punishing" and a "visitation" later. Let me explain...

Isaiah 24: 20 immediately precedes these verses and says, "The earth reels to and from like a drunkard, and it totters like a shack, and its transgression is heavy upon it, and it shall fall, never to rise again." Then verse 23 says, "Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed..." This description of the earth, sun and moon is important to remember going forward.

In the next verse 21 we have, "In that day..." describing when all these events will take place. I think you would agree with me this is referring to the "last day". What does Revelation say about all this? The sixth seal, seventh trumpet and seventh bowl are all describing the same event on the "last day". They are recapitulations. They are retelling the same event with different details.

Revelation 6: 12-17 describes the sixth seal. It includes, "a great earthquake" (sounds like Isaiah 24: 20), "sun became black and the moon became like blood" (sounds like Isaiah 24: 23), "the sky recedes as a scroll and every mountain and island was moved out of it place" (sounds like Isaiah 24: 20 again).

Revelation 11: 15-19 describes the seventh trumpet. It includes, "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord" and "the twenty four elders who sat before God on thrones" and they say "you have taken your great power and reigned" (sounds just like Isaiah 24: 23 and its comment including the elders and reigning gloriously). Then it says,

"THE TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED, BOTH SMALL AND GREAT" This is critical that we see this because we are being told the seventh trumpet is AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS OF REVELATION 20. Rev 20: 12, "I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God..." This can only be true in the amillennial position of eschatology and appears to disprove premillennialism.

Rev 11 finishes with, "AND THAT YOU SHOULD REWARD YOUR SERVANTS THE PROPHETS AND THE SAINTS" This is critical again because we are told it happens AFTER THE 1,000 YEAR REIGN ON THE SAME DAY THE DEAD ARE JUDGED. All of this is contained in Rev 11: 15-19.

And finally Revelation 16: 17-21 describes the seventh bowl. It includes, "such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth" and "every island fled away and the mountains were not found"(sounds just like Isaiah 24: 20 again). Remember the sixth seal in Rev 6? "every island and mountain were moved out of there place". Just like the seventh bowl. Recapitulation.

So the "host of exalted ones" along with the "kings of the earth" in Isaiah 24: 20-23 are "punished" at the same time the Lord returns AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS are over. The amillennialist like myself believes that the 1,000 years of Rev 20 is symbolic of the church age so this timeline fits perfectly with the above verses. Rev 20 is a recapitulation of Rev 19 and does not follow chronologically.

I must confess the "after many days they will be visited/punished" in Isaiah 24: 22 I do not have an answer for. I don't know what that means but it is Strong's word 6485 "paqad" and means "to visit, attend". I am not a Hebrew expert so i don't know why it is translated "punished".

Nevertheless, I think this response shows how Isaiah 24: 20-23 fits with Revelation and how this event in Isaiah can only be happening AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS of Revelation 20. Not before like the premillennialist claims.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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"THE TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED, BOTH SMALL AND GREAT" This is critical that we see this because we are being told the seventh trumpet is AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS OF REVELATION 20. Rev 20: 12, "I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God..." This can only be true in the amillennial position of eschatology and appears to disprove premillennialism.

Rev 11 finishes with, "AND THAT YOU SHOULD REWARD YOUR SERVANTS THE PROPHETS AND THE SAINTS" This is critical again because we are told it happens AFTER THE 1,000 YEAR REIGN ON THE SAME DAY THE DEAD ARE JUDGED. All of this is contained in Rev 11: 15-19.
There is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth according to Revelation 11: 15-19. Premillennialism is proven false by Scripture.

I wanted to make another important observation about Rev 11: 18 and its description of what happens at the seventh trumpet.

The premillennialist might attempt to say that this verse is only a judgment of the righteous in order to preserve premillennialism. The Scripture in Rev 11: 18 refutes this. I will breakdown Rev 11: 18 as briefly and clearly as I can and will show why this judgment cannot be the righteous only.

Rev 11: 18 says, "
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Rev 11: 18 is given to us in three parts.

The first part is "AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be judged" So we must ask ourselves, who are the dead? Obviously it is everyone who has ever lived and died on this planet. Now we must ask this question...

Are the dead only the righteous? Or just the unrighteous? Of course not. It is made up of both good and bad, righteous and unrighteous, just and unjust people.

So the first part of Rev 11: 18 "AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD, that they should be judged" can only mean EVERYONE. THE JUST AND UNJUST. The second and third parts of Rev 11: 18 confirm this.

The second part of Rev 11: 18 describes the judgment of the righteous. Their judgment is favorable and so they receive rewards.

The third part of Rev 11: 18 describes the judgment of the unrighteous. Their judgment is unfavorable and they are destroyed.

So the Scripture refutes any limiting of this judgment to only the righteous.

The premillennialist may still try and insist that this is a judgment of the righteous only by using one other fallacious argument. The argument goes like this...

The righteous are judged at His return and given rewards but the last part of Rev 11: 18 where it says, "And should destroy those who destroy the earth." just means wicked people that are living at the time will die at His return.

This argument is refuted by Revelation 11: 18 where it says, "THE TIME OF THE DEAD, THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED". If wicked people who are ALIVE at His return are killed that is not a "JUDGMENT OF THE DEAD" but of the living.

Revelation 11: 15-19 and especially verse 18 disprove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This seventh trumpet event can only happen AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS of Rev 20 are over and happens at the same time as the Great White Throne judgment as my original post has shown.
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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Thats an interesting argument Delirious

Could someone tackle this?:


Revelation 11: 15-19 describes the seventh trumpet. It includes, "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord" and "the twenty four elders who sat before God on thrones" and they say "you have taken your great power and reigned" (sounds just like Isaiah 24: 23 and its comment including the elders and reigning gloriously). Then it says,

"THE TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED, BOTH SMALL AND GREAT" This is critical that we see this because we are being told the seventh trumpet is AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS OF REVELATION 20. Rev 20: 12, "I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God..." This can only be true in the amillennial position of eschatology and appears to disprove premillennialism.
The part in bold, What say we?
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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Thats an interesting argument Delirious
"THE TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED, BOTH SMALL AND GREAT" This is critical that we see this because we are being told the seventh trumpet is AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS OF REVELATION 20. Rev 20: 12, "I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God..." This can only be true in the amillennial position of eschatology and appears to disprove premillennialism.
Could someone tackle this?
I would also like to see a premillennialist try and answer this:

Revelation 11: 15-19 and especially verse 18 disprove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. This seventh trumpet event can only happen AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS of Rev 20 are over and happens at the same time as the Great White Throne judgment as my original post has shown.
I think my last reply proves that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible according to Scripture. I would like to throw out a challenge. I would love to see a premillennialist try and prove my last reply #209 wrong.

I like to have my theological positions challenged by people with different views to see if they will hold up under fire. I believe the amillennial view is what the Bible teaches on eschatology.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Thats an interesting argument Delirious

Could someone tackle this?:



The part in bold, What say we?
You would have to re invent the wheel,which is what you are witnessing in that a mil exchange.
A mil viewpoint has a severe problem with it's starting point. You must arrange the components exactly like they say. Not sytemstic theology. Just trust them.
 

delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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You would have to re invent the wheel,which is what you are witnessing in that a mil exchange.
A mil viewpoint has a severe problem with it's starting point. You must arrange the components exactly like they say. Not sytemstic theology. Just trust them.
In my reply #209 I put forth Scripture that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible. Were you going to try and refute what I said in that post? Did you see me distorting the Scripture somehow in that post?
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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In my reply #209 I put forth Scripture that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible.
It is God who determines what is possible or not. Your business is to simply believe what He has revealed.
 

delirious

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Mar 16, 2017
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It is God who determines what is possible or not. Your business is to simply believe what He has revealed.
That is not an argument from Scripture.

In my reply #209 I put forth Scripture that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible. Were you going to try and refute what I said in that post? Did you see me distorting the Scripture somehow in that post?
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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That is not an argument from Scripture.

In my reply #209 I put forth Scripture that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible. Were you going to try and refute what I said in that post? Did you see me distorting the Scripture somehow in that post?
Since you are still bound and determined to promote error on this forum, I will address post 209 next.
 

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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That is not an argument from Scripture.

In my reply #209 I put forth Scripture that appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is not possible. Were you going to try and refute what I said in that post? Did you see me distorting the Scripture somehow in that post?
I'm curious though before he does in post 209 when you broke this down from verse 18 you say "were destroyed" in past tense but it says the time has come as if these things are about "to commence" can you clarify the tense your meaning?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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There is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth according to Revelation 11: 15-19.
Revelation 11 comes long before Revelation 20, but it upholds the Millennium rather than the opposite. So let's look at your specious argument:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

This is merely a PROPHETIC STATEMENT. It is speaking of a future event as though it has been already fulfilled, since from God's perspective that is exactly the case. Now we will look at a similar (and corresponding) statement from Daniel's prophecy, which was given in approximately 600 BC and appeared to being fulfilled at that time, but speaking of a far distant event:
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man [CHRIST] came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, [GOD THE FATHER] and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13,14)
Premillennialism is proven false by Scripture.
Making such NONSENSICAL STATEMENTS does not help your credibility.
I wanted to make another important observation about Rev 11: 18 and its description of what happens at the seventh trumpet.
As noted above it is NOT what happens at the seventh trumpet, but WHAT IS PROPHESIED at the 7th trumpet. So rather than address all your muddled conclusions, let's look at Rev 11:15-19 AS RELATED TO THE MILLENNIUM.

1. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ...
From Daniel's prophecy above, it is clear that after the second coming of Christ, all earthly kingdoms will be abolished so that Christ set's up the Kingdom of God on earth.
There are multiple prophecies to support this, but we will take just on from another prophetic book: Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. (Isa 32:1) Who is this King who shall reign in righteousness? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ at the Millennium? And in order to reign in righteousness, is it not imperative that all unrighteousness be abolished from the earth? And are not all the nations and kingdoms of this world presently unrighteous? So the only way that Christ can reign in righteousness is to bring every nation and kingdom to that state of righteousness which He requires.

2. ...and he shall reign for ever and ever.
What does this tell us? Does it not tell us that the Millennium is THE PRELUDE to the eternal Kingdom of God on earth?


3. ...because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
It should be evident to anyone with a little common sense that this was NOT FULFILLED within the time frame of Rev 11. Why? Because we have to arrive at Rev 19 and 20 to see this being fulfilled.


REVELATION 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


REVELATION 20 [A (THE)THOUSAND YEARS REPEATED SIX TIMES IN SEVEN VERSES]
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


I TRUST THAT AFTER THIS BIBLICAL REFUTATION OF AMILLENNIALISM, YOU WILL EITHER REPENT AND BELIEVE THIS WHOLEHEARTEDLY, OR SHUT UP RATHER THAN OPPOSE SCRIPTURE.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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I'm curious though before he does in post 209 when you broke this down from verse 18 you say "were destroyed" in past tense but it says the time has come as if these things are about "to commence" can you clarify the tense your meaning?
Let me paste all of Revelation 11: 18 here for clarity:

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

I am not sure where I quoted "were destroyed" in my post #209. I don't see it. If I did, I misquoted. I do see in post #209 where I quoted the last line of verse 18 that talks about the negative judgment for unbelievers and I quoted that line accurately.

The point I was trying to make is that everyone is about to be judged and either rewarded or destroyed at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This can only happen at the Great White Throne judgment and appears to prove that there is no millennium.