Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[KJV1611]

I guess you could "separate" them in a sense 16 - but John sees "both" as one in his vision

I see your point but I'm on the fence about the 1000 year reign, I don't know if it's literal or figurative. I'm also looking to see if scripture bears out a literal 1000 year period right after the resurrection.... I just don't know at this point, there's so much vagueness in everything to do with it.

 

[Locutus]

I see your point but I'm on the fence about the 1000 year reign, I don't know if it's literal or figurative. I'm also looking to see if scripture bears out a literal 1000 year period right after the resurrection.... I just don't know at this point, there's so much vagueness in everything to do with it.

The number is symbolic - but the period of around 40 years that the early is speaking of as "a thousand years" was literal - the disciples were told that he would be with them in power until the end of the age:

Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you, and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

This "40" year generation was the only one displaying all the powers and gifts of the holy spirit.

 

[KJV1611]

If you want to extend His earthly ministry to those in the grave after He dies and before His resurrection I suppose you can do that if you want. Did people get saved by His preaching in hell? I don't think so. Hebrews 9: 27, "It is given to men once to die and then the judgment." I don't see a possibility in the Scriptures to get saved after you die.

I think He was probably just referring to His listeners in John 5: 24-25 believing in Him and passing from death to life.

It sounds like you are saying the seventh trumpet of Revelation was fulfilled at Jesus' resurrection and so Rev 11: 18 was fulfilled when he arose and took old testament saints to heaven with Him. Is this what you are trying to say? If I have misunderstood you I apologize.

I don't see how this interpretation is possible. The seventh trumpet occurs in Revelation after many other trumpets and I don't see how it could be applied to His first coming and resurrection since none of those previous trumpets had happened yet at Christ's first coming.

I think the Scripture is pretty clear the seventh trumpet is about Christ's second coming and that is where you see in Rev 11: 18 the saints and prophets along with the rest of the dead being raised for judgment. It is the Great White Throne judgment.

(Eph 4:8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

No they didn't get saved, they were already saved but waiting for Christ to release them from Abraham's bosom. When Christ ascended he led captivity (those confined to Abraham's bosom) to heaven with himself. He also gave the Holy Spirit to men left on earth.

 

[preacher4truth]

No idea where you get the idea Thayer's is the "best" lexicon. In fact, in theological and scholarly Biblical studies, Brown-Driver-Briggs is the best lexicon for Hebrew, and Bauer, or BDAG is the best Greek lexicon by far. If you had acutally studied the original languages, you would know this.

Here is one reason why:

"In February 1891 Thayer published a lecture in which he expressed disagreement with the position of Biblical inerrancy, asserting that his own acceptance of various errors of history and science in the Bible did not materially detract from his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer

Here's another: (A Unitarian?? Yikes)

• "A word of caution is necessary. Thayer was a Unitarian, and the errors of this sect occasionally come through in the explanatory notes. The reader should be alert for both subtle and blatant denials of such doctrines as the Trinity (Thayer regarded Christ as a mere man and the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force emanating from God), the inherent and total depravity of fallen human nature, the eternal punishment of the wicked, and Biblical inerrancy. When defining metamelomai [the Greek word for regret], Thayer refuses to draw a clear distinction between this word and metanoeo [the Greek word for a change of mind - repentance]. Underlying this refusal is the view that man is inherently good, needing Christ not as a Savior but only as an example."
• https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/lexicon_corrupt.htm

Well, we have one (probably more) on here who does the same thing on this forum going by the name of trofimus. After that, I stopped listening to his drivel.

 

[preacher4truth]

1000 is used figuratively in Scripture. Example: "For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills." Psalm 50:10.

It doesn't mean on hill 1001 the cattle aren't the LORD'S, because he only owns the ones on hills 1-1000.

Surely someone on here will tell me that he doesn't own the cattle on the other hills...john146, where are you?

 

[Locutus]

(Eph 4:8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

No they didn't get saved, they were already saved but waiting for Christ to release them from Abraham's bosom. When Christ ascended he led captivity (those confined to Abraham's bosom) to heaven with himself. He also gave the Holy Spirit to men left on earth.

I don't think that was Paul's intent here 16, the context points to the gifts:

Eph 4:7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,

Eph 4:11 and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,

Eph 4:12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,

 

[KJV1611]

I don't think that was Paul's intent here 16, the context points to the gifts:

Eph 4:7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,

Eph 4:11 and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,

Eph 4:12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,

Agree with that.... thanks.

 

[KJV1611]

The number is symbolic - but the period of around 40 years that the early is speaking of as "a thousand years" was literal - the disciples were told that he would be with them in power until the end of the age:

Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you, and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

This "40" year generation was the only one displaying all the powers and gifts of the holy spirit.

I see your logic but I'm not there yet.

 

[tanakh]

I believe in this post that I can disprove the pre-trib rapture and premillennialism using only the Scriptures. Proverbs 18: 13 says that, “He who answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame to him.” So I ask you humbly, as a fellow servant in the kingdom of our Lord and Savior, please consider this post with an open heart and mind.



North American churches are overrun with dispensational premillennialism and its eschatology. Its teachings about a seven-year treaty between Antichrist and Israel, a secret pre-trib rapture, and a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth can be very exciting to the Christian.



Opening your newspaper to find out that Iran is calling for the destruction of Israel once again, or Russia and Turkey are becoming buddies and appear ready to strike the Jews, can be addicting to those that think events like these are signaling the soon coming of Christ. It is no wonder this view of eschatology is so popular in churches in the west.



Sadly, I don’t believe the Scripture supports any of these ideas and so I am concerned for my brothers and sisters in Christ who I believe to be looking for the wrong thing.



I wanted to put forth some Scriptures in this post to show why I think the two-age model (amillennialism) is correct and why the three-age model of premillennialism and a pre-trib rapture does not fit the Scriptures.



I am writing this post primarily for those who are undecided on this topic or for those who may have never been introduced to amillennial eschatology. I find that most Christians I speak with, especially in North America, have never heard of anything other than premillenialism.



First off, what do I mean by two-ages and three-ages?



The amillennialist believes that the Bible only describes two ages after the cross. The church age which we are currently in, and the age to come which happens with Christ’s second coming and the immediate creation of the New Heavens and Earth when he returns.



The premillennialist believes in three ages after the cross. The church age that we are currently in, the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth (the millennium), and the New Heavens and Earth after the 1,000 years are over.



So which one is correct? Let us start by looking at some Scriptures and see how Jesus Himself and Paul viewed this.



Matthew 12: 32, “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”



Luke 18: 29-30, “Truly, truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”



Luke 20: 34-35, Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage but those that are accounted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage.”



Ephesians 1: 21, “far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but in the age to come.”



So Jesus and Paul only knew of two ages.



I think by looking at some further Scriptures to see how this current age ends, we can rule out any possibility of a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth and therefore disprove premillennialism. Let us proceed and take a look at the next set of Scriptures.



Matthew 13: 47-50, “The kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”



2 Peter 3: 10-13, “But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of person ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”



2 Thessalonians 1: 7-10, “And to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when he comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints…”



Some premillennialists will say that they only believe in two ages just like the amillennialist, and not three, by saying that the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth begins “the age to come” and continues on into the new heavens and new earth and they are both part of the same age.



But is this true from Scripture? Is the millennium and the new heavens and earth both part of the same age to come? Scripture says no and here is why:



What did the last Scripture I quoted in 2 Thess mean by “in that Day”?



John 6: 39, “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”



John 6: 44, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”



John 6: 54, “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”



John 11: 24, Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”



So we know “in that Day” in 2 Thess is the “last day” when saints are resurrected. The last day can only mean the last day of our current age.



The premillennialist will say that the “last day” happens at the end of the church age although some will say it happens 7 years later at the end of the tribulation. By saying this they can still have the “age to come” beginning with the 1,000 year reign of Christ and continuing into the new heavens and new earth.



SO IN ORDER TO MAKE PREMILLENNIALISM WORK THEY MUST SAY THAT THE LAST DAY IS BEFORE THE 1,000 YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST ON EARTH.



So if we can prove that the “last day” is not before the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth then premillennialism is proven false. What does the Scripture say?



From the Scriptures I have already quoted in this post we know that the good and bad are gathered together on the same day (Matt 13). The bad are thrown in the Lake of Fire.



2 Thess and 2 Peter say that the earth is burned up with flaming fire and the heavens are dissolved when the Lord returns.



Where do we find similar language in the Bible? The Great White Throne Judgment.



Revelation 20: 11, “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.”



There is no more place for the heaven and earth because they were dissolved with flaming fire at Christ’s return just like 2 Thess and 2 Peter describe.



The premillennialist says the Great White Throne judgment is only for the wicked because the righteous were raised a 1,000 years earlier at the beginning of the millennium. But does the Scripture say this?



We know from John 6:39, John 6:44, John 6:54, and John 11: 24, that I quoted earlier, the righteous are raised on the last day. So is the last day of this age really the end of the church age and the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth like the premillennialist claims?



When are the wicked raised and judged?



John 12: 48, “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him IN THE LAST DAY.”



WE HAVE THE WICKED BEING RAISED AND JUDGED ON THE LAST DAY. THE SAME DAY THE RIGHTEOUS ARE RESURRECTED. Are there two last days? Logic says no.



We have proven using Scripture that premillennialism is false. The last day can only be the Great White Throne Judgment. There is no 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Do we have even more Scriptures to support this? Yes we do.



Job 14: 12, “So man lies down and does not rise till the heavens are no more. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep.” When are the heavens no more? Hint: Rev 20: 11



Daniel 12: 2, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”



John 5: 28-29, “Do not marvel at this; for the HOUR is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.”



All of these things happen on the last day. That day is the Great White Throne Judgment. When both the righteous and wicked are raised and judged. The wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Matt 13 quoted earlier also Rev 20: 15) and the righteous go into the new heavens and earth.


POST CONTINUED IN FIRST REPLY (only a little bit left)

I was going to post a similar thread but you have beaten me to it!!

 

[Locutus]

Agree with that.... thanks.

It is a strange "phrase" for sure "he led captivity captive" - he does mention this in regards to his ascension which was the defeat of satan who held mankind captive.

Paul is drawing on Psalms 68:18 - the context is interesting in God triumphing over his enemies.

No doubt Hades held the dead captive but from my "eschatological" (un-logical according to some) understanding Hades was not "emptied" at the cross/ascension.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I was going to post a similar thread but you have beaten me to it!!

I can't wait to see your faces when a second from now (whenever it happens) you suddenly find yourself standing in heaven 'in the twinkling of an eye' -- Gee, sorry Lord, I guess I was wrong! What the heck, it'll still be a joyous occasion.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

It is a strange "phrase" for sure "he led captivity captive" - he does mention this in regards to his ascension which was the defeat of satan who held mankind captive.

Paul is drawing on Psalms 68:18 - the context is interesting in God triumphing over his enemies.

No doubt Hades held the dead captive but from my "eschatological" (un-logical according to some) understanding Hades was not "emptied" at the cross/ascension.

Not Hades, paradise where Jesus told the thief they would meet up in. Those souls are still not released though paradise is now presently affixed under the throne room of God awaiting the resurrection of the Tribulation saints.

Hades was across the gulf, but it's biblical name was 'prison.' They are still there, by the way until the resurrection of the damned at the Great White Throne.

 

[delirious]

All you gave was what YOU THINK is going to happen. You did not PROVE anything. The first thing you need to do is get off your high horse. Most of the poeple I have on ignore are proud people who think they are gods gift to the uniververse. And like to attack people over non essential doctrines such as this.. As typical. You seem to be just like them, But I will not judge you yet..

I think its funny that you said you would not judge me at the end of this quote but then throughout your whole post all you did was judge me.

I proved you wrong with my post. Which you did not even refute or even try. If those things are true, your whole post is destroyed. So How about you prove the points I made wrong,, Whats wrong, are they too hard for you?

You didn't prove anything wrong about what I posted. You gave a bunch of other Scriptures but never addressed how I misinterpreted Rev 11: 15-19 and especially verse 18 which appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ is impossible.

 

[KJV1611]

It is a strange "phrase" for sure "he led captivity captive" - he does mention this in regards to his ascension which was the defeat of satan who held mankind captive.

Paul is drawing on Psalms 68:18 - the context is interesting in God triumphing over his enemies.

No doubt Hades held the dead captive but from my "eschatological" (un-logical according to some) understanding Hades was not "emptied" at the cross/ascension.

In my mind captivity is without a doubt is speaking of the Jews and their captivity throughout the old testament. As far as captivity being led captive, captive literally means to be taken by someone and be under their control so it can be a negative or positive thing and in this case being captive by Christ is a good thing.

 

[tanakh]

I can't wait to see your faces when a second from now (whenever it happens) you suddenly find yourself standing in heaven 'in the twinkling of an eye' -- Gee, sorry Lord, I guess I was wrong! What the heck, it'll still be a joyous occasion.

At least you expect us to be standing in Heaven. Many expect us to be left behind for not believing in it.

 

[KJV1611]

Not Hades, paradise where Jesus told the thief they would meet up in. Those souls are still not released though paradise is now presently affixed under the throne room of God awaiting the resurrection of the Tribulation saints.

Hades was across the gulf, but it's biblical name was 'prison.' They are still there, by the way until the resurrection of the damned at the Great White Throne.

When we die - absent from the body, we are present with Christ. Why would the old testament saints not be present with their Lord right now?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

At least you expect us to be standing in Heaven. Many expect us to be left behind for not believing in it.

Eschatology is not an essential doctrine of the faith. It is possible to agree to disagree on it. Heck, I can even get along with postmillennials, but I refuse to eat Post Toasties.

 

[delirious]

The facts are that mellein does mean imminent look at these scriptures that use mellien and tell us how it can means 1970 years and counting.

Each place were mellein appears in the text the event unfolded almost immediately or in that generation:

Stop dude. We have already gone over this. You are clinging to an untenable system. The word means "certainty" as well as "about to be" . That's why, depending on the verses, it is translated one or the other.

You keep clinging to "about to be", "last days", "time is at hand" to try and validate your system. The prophets used this terminology in the past to stress the certainty of something happening. Not that it was about to immediately.

Isaiah 13 is about the end of the world but also the fall of Babylon. It has dual application. Isaiah 13: 17-22 is especially about Babylon's fall. The last verse 22 is very important.

Isaiah 13: 22, "
The hyenas will howl in their citadels,
And jackals in their pleasant palaces.
Her time is NEAR to come,
And her days will not be prolonged

Isaiah was written somewhere around 740 to 680 B.C. In the Septuagint the Greek word tachos is used for "near" there. It means very quickly in the Greek. Babylon did not fall until 539 B.C. so we have close to 200 years before that "near" happened.

This is just one example of how the biblical writers used "the time is near" to mean certainty and not that it would happen right away.

 

[Locutus]

At least you expect us to be standing in Heaven. Many expect us to be left behind for not believing in it.

So all the right behinds get taken away?

 

[Locutus]

Stop dude.

^ Sign of desperation