Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[Locutus]

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Jesus is citing Daniel here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel was told to seal the book "seal the book, even to the time of the end" - John was told not to seal the book

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Jesus citing Daniel means the book was no longer sealed (and neither was John's) and he told them when it would happen.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think its funny that you said you would not judge me at the end of this quote but then throughout your whole post all you did was judge me.

Actually I just stated facts, Which again, You did not, or could not refute....

You didn't prove anything wrong about what I posted. You gave a bunch of other Scriptures but never addressed how I misinterpreted Rev 11: 15-19 and especially verse 18 which appears to prove a 1,000 year reign of Christ is impossible.

Whatever Man. You did not respond to anythign I said. Which proved you wrong (as all those things occure during the 1000 years, and NON OF THEM HAVE OCCURED YET.

And hey man, News flash. We do not make a doctrine on one passage..

But thats ok, You prove you have no desire to discuss. So I will bd you good day.. If you wish to respond. Respond to what I posted, or just prove yourself unable..

 

[KJV1611]

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is the resurrection at Christ’s resurrection. Don’t get thrown off by “many” of the saints rose.... all of the Old Testament saints didn’t rise because Enoch and Elijah never died.

 

[Locutus]

This is the resurrection at Christ’s resurrection. Don’t get thrown off by “many” of the saints rose.... all of the Old Testament saints didn’t rise because Enoch and Elijah never died.

I have to disagree here 16 - why would you place "Daniel" at Christ's resurrection - I think I know where you're going with this:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Right??

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I have to disagree here 16 - why would you place "Daniel" at Christ's death - I think I know where you're going with this:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Right??

There would be nothing left of Daniel to come forth out of the graves. Ashes did not rise that day.

 

[Locutus]

Next stop 16?

2 Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Next stop 16?

2 Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

There is a day when that verse will be considered along with most of the Old Testament--past history, but not yet.

 

[Locutus]

This is the resurrection at Christ’s resurrection. Don’t get thrown off by “many” of the saints rose.... all of the Old Testament saints didn’t rise because Enoch and Elijah never died.

Expand on this 16 - thanks

 

[KJV1611]

I have to disagree here 16 - why would you place "Daniel" at Christ's resurrection - I think I know where you're going with this:

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Right??

Exactly! Christ the firstfruitS, not firstfruit but firstfruits plural. Christ and the old testament saints were the firstfruits of the first resurrection.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[KJV1611]

Expand on this 16 - thanks

If the bible said ALL the old testament saints were raised with Christ it would be wrong because ALL old testament saints didn't die. We know Enoch and Elijah were taken alive to heaven, I don't know if there were others or not, the bible doesn't say.

Plus Jesus led captivity captive... he took them home with him.

 

[Locutus]

Exactly! Christ the firstfruitS, not firstfruit but firstfruits plural. Christ and the old testament saints were the firstfruits of the first resurrection.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

As I read that Christ has been made alive but the rest are made alive at his coming - not at his resurrection, so this is in conflict with the account in Matthew.

Adam Clarke makes this comment:

Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes; others think that the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city.

Why the graves should be opened on Friday, and the bodies not be raised to life till the following Sunday, is difficult to be conceived. The place is extremely obscure.

 

[KJV1611]

As I read that Christ has been made alive but the rest are made alive at his coming - not at his resurrection, so this is in conflict with the account in Matthew.

Adam Clarke makes this comment:

Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes; others think that the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city.

Why the graves should be opened on Friday, and the bodies not be raised to life till the following Sunday, is difficult to be conceived. The place is extremely obscure.

When did Christ return in his power and glory? When did he take his seat on David's throne?

 

[Locutus]

If the bible said ALL the old testament saints were raised with Christ it would be wrong because ALL old testament saints didn't die. We know Enoch and Elijah were taken alive to heaven, I don't know if there were others or not, the bible doesn't say.

Plus Jesus led captivity captive... he took them home with him.

The problem I see with tying Daniel's and John's gospel account "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" is both happen at the same time - where is the mention of "they that have done evil" in Matthew?

 

[tanakh]

The whole subject in regard to the seven year tribulation stems from the seventy weeks of years cited in Daniel 9

In that Chapter Daniel is told of seventy weeks that have been determined.
Two periods are mentioned
The first is seven weeks of years
The second is sixty two weeks of years
This makes a total of sixty nine weeks

The passage goes on to say that AFTER the sixty two weeks the MESSIAH shall be cut off
and the people of the Prince that is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

Christ was crucified after the the total of 69 weeks not during them.
By sticking a church age between the sixty ninth and seventieth week
and calling it seven years of tribulation means that Christ has not yet
been crucified because the seven year tribulation,{seventieth week)
hasn't started yet'

The prince who was to come from Daniels perspective was Titus
whose people destroyed the City and sanctuary in AD 70 just as Jesus
predicted.

The seventieth week followed the sixty ninth

 

[Locutus]

When did Christ return in his power and glory? When did he take his seat on David's throne?

Two different times.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The above is not his return in power - I don't see how you tie these together.

 

[KJV1611]

The problem I see with tying Daniel's and John's gospel account "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" is both happen at the same time - where is the mention of "they that have done evil" in Matthew?

The problem I see with tying Daniel's and John's gospel account "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" is both happen at the same time - where is the mention of "they that have done evil" in Matthew?

No mention doesn't mean it didn't happen, there is plenty of scripture that makes no mention of things that are talked about in other places... here a little there a little. I understand if you disagree.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The whole subject in regard to the seven year tribulation stems from the seventy weeks of years cited in Daniel 9

In that Chapter Daniel is told of seventy weeks that have been determined.
Two periods are mentioned
The first is seven weeks of years
The second is sixty two weeks of years
This makes a total of sixty nine weeks

The passage goes on to say that AFTER the sixty two weeks the MESSIAH shall be cut off
and the people of the Prince that is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

Christ was crucified after the the total of 69 weeks not during them.
By sticking a church age between the sixty ninth and seventieth week
and calling it seven years of tribulation means that Christ has not yet
been crucified because the seven year tribulation,{seventieth week)
hasn't started yet'

The prince who was to come from Daniels perspective was Titus
whose people destroyed the City and sanctuary in AD 70 just as Jesus
predicted.

The seventieth week followed the sixty ninth

Thats impossible

For one, Titus destroyed the city almost 40 years later

Second. After the city was destroyed. We are told it woudl lay desolate for a period of time to yet be determined, in which their will be war desolations, something that has occured, and is still occuring till this day.

After thise time which will be determined.

The prince, who comes from out of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary will make a 7 year covenant with many.

In the middle of that week, He commits the abomination which causes desolation. Wich again, will lay desolate. Until the consumation is poured out on the desolate.

Jesus himself mentions this time in Matt 24. Where he says this period wil end with his own personal return to earth. As he puts a stop to the evil that has been rampaging for the last middle of the week.

No matter how you look at it. Jesus died after the 69th week (literally at the end of the 69 week, i=or immediately following) and if the 70th week was immediately started. It woudl have been done 7 years later. Before any of those things occured.

 

[Quantrill]

If it ain't true then it's false - simple.

Idiotic statement.

You don't know the exactness of the end time events. To proclaim your view as true and another as false doctrine, is not only foolish but, as I said, idiocy. Which of course would make you an idiot.

Quantrill

 

[KJV1611]

Two different times.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The above is not his return in power - I don't see how you tie these together.

When Christ rose from the dead what other power and glory could he come with?

 

[Locutus]

When Christ rose from the dead what other power and glory could he come with?

This one:

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of
heaven.

Which is the same as dis one:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.