Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
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The pride of man has caused many of God's children to have to repent. You fail to understand how depraved the natural man is by your not being able to see that the people Paul is talking about in Rom 1:18 are regenerated disobedient children of God. You might do well to read the following chapter. Because of your misinterpretation of Romans 1, are you just going to ignore what 1 Cor 2:14 says? Faith does come by hearing the word of God, but the natural man does not have ears to hear spiritual things. Only his sheep hear his voice and he knows them by name. Saved, according to the Greek means "a deliverance". hearing and believing the word of God does deliver you here in this world, but believing the word is not the cause of your eternal deliverance. If you want to include all of the scriptures and not ignore some, such as 1 Cor 2:14, then you should learn how to rightly divide the salvation (deliverance) scriptures. Those that Jesus died for on the cross were saved (delivered) by his work on the cross. and said there would be no more sacrifice for sins. Jesus finished that work of salvation on the cross and there has not been a single person eternally saved sense that time, though there have been an unnumbered amount delivered (saved) while they lived their lives here on earth. The inspired scriptures are instructions from God on how he wants his children to live their lives here on earth. They are not instructions from God telling the natural man how to get saved eternally. Sorry to have detained you after you had dismissed class.
Here is Paul talking about the law of sin in him and really in all of us! Thank God for verse 25!!
Romans 7 NIV
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7 NIV
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Since grace is a free gift from God it befuddles those who think we have to earn salvation. In one book Jesus is quoted as saying begone I never knew you to those who told him of their works on his behalf. They never understood grace is what saves and real works is the result of the faith. As James put it "Faith without works is dead. I will show you my faith with my works."
Here is John 3:16 AMPC
Notice the defining of believe in this translation. Not a simple belief. The clings to reminds me of when my children as toddlers would cling to my leg as I walked. They thought it fun and I enjoyed doing it.
John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Notice the defining of believe in this translation. Not a simple belief. The clings to reminds me of when my children as toddlers would cling to my leg as I walked. They thought it fun and I enjoyed doing it.
John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Mormons believe we will all become Gods when we attain perfect understanding of the word. They have books that they believe are above the Bible since they are later given works from God. The fatal flaw is the Book of the Mormon fails archaeological digs into the only place identified in it. On the other hand all archaeological digs when completed reinforce the absolute accuracy of the historical parts of the Bible. Miraculous happenings at Sodom and Jericho have been proved with these digs. One archaeologist tried to prove the Bible was hogwash and ended up becoming a Christian.
The clause 'clings to' is troubling. It implies that salvation is only gained at the conclusion of life and only if we continued to cling. Even 'relies on' gives the impression that one must continue to rely.
Trusts could be a one-time occurrence, but obviously not in the AMPC.
Salvation is an instantaneous event that occurs the instant one believes on Him is in immediate possession of eternal life.
Trusts could be a one-time occurrence, but obviously not in the AMPC.
Salvation is an instantaneous event that occurs the instant one believes on Him is in immediate possession of eternal life.
There is no contradiction in this statement . . .
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
I never claimed that the Father 'gave' Him all mankind. Jesus died for all mankind. Will all mankind be saved? No. Because they don't want to. That does not LIMIT the invitation.
Now as to the Father, He is not willing that any should perish . . . in other words, it is not His sovereign will that any should perish. He would love to see all saved, but His foreknowledge showed Him that they will not.
but a Calvinist would find a contradiction in the word 'hi.'
What specifically is the contradiction . . . rather than it 'seems' like there is one.
BaptistBibleBeliever said:
I never claimed that the Father 'gave' Him all mankind. Jesus died for all mankind. Will all mankind be saved? No. Because they don't want to. That does not LIMIT the invitation.
Now as to the Father, He is not willing that any should perish . . . in other words, it is not His sovereign will that any should perish. He would love to see all saved, but His foreknowledge showed Him that they will not.
but a Calvinist would find a contradiction in the word 'hi.'
What specifically is the contradiction . . . rather than it 'seems' like there is one.
You ignore the fact that AMPC in parentheses includes the other meanings of an original language words. If you get a book that defines the original language words you will see what is in the parentheses in AMPC. That is why I use it in addition to KJV, ESV, and NIV. That way I don't need an original language with English interlaced or side by side Bible. I also use biblegateway.com on my smart phone as my Bible. I can switch translations quickly. Thus comparing translations easily. It also contains commentaries as well.
Ironically, I just logically did indent formatting (like an outline) just now. It is from morning talk at Chicago, April 9, 1889.
"If we only understood the evil of this spirit of intolerance, how we would shun it!
We join ourselves to the enemy of God and humankind when we accuse our brethren, for Satan was an accuser of the brethren.
We bear false witness when we add a little to our brother's words, and give them a false coloring;
and in the sight of God we are not doers, but transgressors of the Law
We are not on The Lord's side; we are on the side of him who hurts, destroys, and tears down the cause of Truth.
We should pray for one another, instead of drawing apart.
He (or she) who keeps the Word of Truth abides in Christ;
in him (or her) is the love of God perfected.
We should be ready to accept Light from God from whatever source it may come,
instead of rejecting it because it does not come through the channel from which we expected it.
When Jesus opened the Word of God at Nazareth, and read Isaiah's Prophecy of his work and mission,
and declared that it was fulfilled in their hearing,
they began to doubt and question.
They said, "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary?
And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?
Whence then has this man all these things?”
And they were offended in him.
They did not expect Light from him, and they rejected the Message of God.
When he who had been born blind, received his sight, and came to the Pharisees and told them of Jesus,
they said, "Thou was altogether born in sins, and do you teach us?"
And they cast him out.
They settled themselves in unbelief, in rejection of Christ, though they professed to believe in God.
God has commanded us to love one another.
If you see defects in a brother, do not say, "I have lost all confidence in him."
Have you any right to speak in that way of another?
The Scripture commands us to build one another up in the most holy faith.
We are to be holy in all manner of conversation.
Are your minds broad enough to take in all the circumstances, perplexities, and trials of the brother you condemn?
There are many whose religion consists in criticizing habits of dress and manners.
They want to bring every one to their own measure.
They desire to lengthen out those who seem too short for their standard,
and to cut down others who seem too long.
They have lost the love of God out of their hearts;
but they think they have a spirit of discernment.
They think it is their prerogative to criticize, and pronounce judgment;
but they should repent of their error, and turn away from their sins.
Peter asked of The Lord concerning John, "Lord, and what shall this man do?"
Jesus answered, "What is that to you? Follow Me."
We are to follow The Example.
A flood of Light shines upon us, and all jealousy should be put away; for jealousy is cruel as the grave.
Purge out the old leaven; for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Let us love one another.
Let us have harmony and union throughout our ranks.
Let us have our hearts sanctified to God.
Let us look upon the Light that abides for us in Jesus.
Let us remember how forbearing and patient He was with the erring children of men.
We should be in a wretched state if The God of Heaven were like one of us, and treated us as we are inclined to treat one another.
Thank The Lord that His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor His ways our ways.
He is full of compassion and love, long-suffering, and abundant in sincere mercy.
If we have the love of Jesus, we shall love those for whom He has died."
"If we only understood the evil of this spirit of intolerance, how we would shun it!
We join ourselves to the enemy of God and humankind when we accuse our brethren, for Satan was an accuser of the brethren.
We bear false witness when we add a little to our brother's words, and give them a false coloring;
and in the sight of God we are not doers, but transgressors of the Law
We are not on The Lord's side; we are on the side of him who hurts, destroys, and tears down the cause of Truth.
We should pray for one another, instead of drawing apart.
He (or she) who keeps the Word of Truth abides in Christ;
in him (or her) is the love of God perfected.
We should be ready to accept Light from God from whatever source it may come,
instead of rejecting it because it does not come through the channel from which we expected it.
When Jesus opened the Word of God at Nazareth, and read Isaiah's Prophecy of his work and mission,
and declared that it was fulfilled in their hearing,
they began to doubt and question.
They said, "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary?
And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?
Whence then has this man all these things?”
And they were offended in him.
They did not expect Light from him, and they rejected the Message of God.
When he who had been born blind, received his sight, and came to the Pharisees and told them of Jesus,
they said, "Thou was altogether born in sins, and do you teach us?"
And they cast him out.
They settled themselves in unbelief, in rejection of Christ, though they professed to believe in God.
God has commanded us to love one another.
If you see defects in a brother, do not say, "I have lost all confidence in him."
Have you any right to speak in that way of another?
The Scripture commands us to build one another up in the most holy faith.
We are to be holy in all manner of conversation.
Are your minds broad enough to take in all the circumstances, perplexities, and trials of the brother you condemn?
There are many whose religion consists in criticizing habits of dress and manners.
They want to bring every one to their own measure.
They desire to lengthen out those who seem too short for their standard,
and to cut down others who seem too long.
They have lost the love of God out of their hearts;
but they think they have a spirit of discernment.
They think it is their prerogative to criticize, and pronounce judgment;
but they should repent of their error, and turn away from their sins.
Peter asked of The Lord concerning John, "Lord, and what shall this man do?"
Jesus answered, "What is that to you? Follow Me."
We are to follow The Example.
A flood of Light shines upon us, and all jealousy should be put away; for jealousy is cruel as the grave.
Purge out the old leaven; for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Let us love one another.
Let us have harmony and union throughout our ranks.
Let us have our hearts sanctified to God.
Let us look upon the Light that abides for us in Jesus.
Let us remember how forbearing and patient He was with the erring children of men.
We should be in a wretched state if The God of Heaven were like one of us, and treated us as we are inclined to treat one another.
Thank The Lord that His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor His ways our ways.
He is full of compassion and love, long-suffering, and abundant in sincere mercy.
If we have the love of Jesus, we shall love those for whom He has died."
As a Calvinist I totally disagree with your assertions of Calvinists. I find that the Arminian view is also Biblical even though it totally is the opposite of Calvinism. Since both are outside the creeds the early elders created they are agree to disagree with each other. That is the assertion of the early elders who created the creeds.
You are saying and not only you but many others that hold fast to this same idea that Christ died for "all" or "all of mankind" I am fully aware of the verses that you will use. But the fact is that we need to define first of all the reason why Christ died. So riddle me this what was the reasoning in why Christ died ?
Reading his comments, it's pretty clear he also doesn't care what Scripture says..........
Endoscopy said:
I don't care what that definition states.
Just making it up as he goes I guess
Endoscopy said:
I don't care what that definition states.
Just making it up as he goes I guess
He gave the opportunity for people to be saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That faith then creates works. James states that faith without works is dead. Works doesn't save but works proves faith. James said the following.
James 2 AMPC
14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
James 2 AMPC
14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
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