Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

dcontroversal · Nov 13, 2018

Actually, history records that Titus ordered the Temple to be spared......according to Josephus...........the following took place...

The account of Josephus described Titus as moderate in his approach and, after conferring with others, ordering that the 500-year-old Temple be spared. According to Josephus, it was the Jews who first used fire in the Northwest approach to the Temple to try and stop Roman advances

But for Josephus, the date of the fire was not due to Roman choice. He had been trying his hardest to obtain the peaceful surrender of the rebels and in this way preserve the Temple and the city. The long, long sermon he claims to have given before the walls is surely a fabrication.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 13, 2018

Titus just wanted to squash the rebellion, And take the gold which he used to build the coliseum.

Hevosmies · Nov 13, 2018

70ad 70ad 70ad

Surprise surprise, Jesus did not return in the clouds on 70ad. resurrection did not happen 70ad.

Also, the olivet discourse as the theologians call it DOES NOT stop at matthew 24. It continues on to chapter 25.

Thats a tough one for the preterist to explain now isnt it? WHEN did the Sheep and Goats judgment take place in 70AD?

trofimus · Nov 13, 2018

I tried to study Daniel 9 several weeks ago.

The problem with Daniel 9 is that there are several completely different texts of it. I know of at least three.

And all these three textual versions are so ambiguous that each of them can be translated in numerous possible ways.

Therefore I cannot say anything certain about it and I gave up, leaving it to God. Partial preterism still seems to be the most probable to me.

dcontroversal · Nov 13, 2018

trofimus said:

I know you and I rarely agree on anything concerning prophecy.....but in my view if the chapter is divided into two time lines it makes sense.......I really believe that dividing it into the following makes the most sense........not gonna argue.....

70th week of Daniel

First 1185 days <----the Ministry of JESUS unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Last 1335 days <----False peace short lived 30 days, 1260 days of great tribulation, 45 days of wrath

The math lines up with the time frame the beast is given to make war against the saints, the witness of the two witnesses, the little horn of Daniel that wears out the saints of the most High etc...........

Anyway......the future will unfold just as God predicts it to unfold regardless of our inept attempt to understand it all..... HAH

stonesoffire · Nov 13, 2018

Hevosmies said:

I saw one interpretation of the sheep and goats division as what is going on now. Am not preterist or any ist....

Just a believer trying to understand.

One could say that resurrection happens the day we receive the new birth.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 13, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

[emphasis mine ^ ]

Right. That, plus the SEQUENCE issue I'd spelled out in another post (perhaps in a different thread, I don't recall)...

which was this:

The "SEE" then "FLEE" is indeed following the "beginning of birth pangs [plural]" in Matthew 24.

But in Luke 21, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

--"the beginning of birth pangs" = Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11... [but then verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (and then [vv.12-24a] describes the 70ad events which must come BEFORE the "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]/and 1Th5:2-3 is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]")]

so...

in Luke 21 the order is not "birth pangs" THEN "SEE" THEN "FLEE," but instead is "SEE [Jeru compassed with armies]" THEN "FLEE" [BEFORE ALL OF THESE--->] "beginning of birth pangs" [which is Matt24:4-8/Mt13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and then followed by much more...].

Completely distinct and wholly different SEQUENCE (not to mention the specific thing they were/are to "SEE" in each)

dcontroversal · Nov 13, 2018

What I find interesting is the consistency of GOD...ALL through the O.T. he blended a future context prophecy in various forms and fashions with current events and historical judgments....yet when we get to the N.T. many will deny this possibility and say...NOOOOO, it had to be 70 A.D. while being oblivious to the consistency of God in the O.T. to prophetically utter a future event woven into a present day context..........it is painfully clear to any honest evaluation that Matthew 24 contains dual prophecy blended into a present day context.....the same is true with Joel's prophecy that is partially fulfilled in Acts.........why is this truth so hard to grasp?

eternally-gratefull · Nov 13, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

I agree, there are two flees, and two reasons the see then flee is in order

Matt 24

See abomination of desolation (Most holy place)

Flee

Why? Because there willl be great tribulation, such as has never been before or after.

If we look in rev 13, The woman is protected when the beast tries to attack her, so the beast turns his efforts to her offspring (the church)

Luke 21

See Roman armies surrounding jerusalem

Flee

Why? Because YOUR desolation is near. (You will be scattered to all the nations)

In one we have the abomination of desolation preceding flee

In the other, we see them flee because the desolation of the city is near.

Two events.. To reasons. And two end results.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 13, 2018

dcontroversal said:

What I find interesting is the consistency of GOD...ALL through the O.T. he blended a future context prophecy in various forms and fashions with current events and historical judgments....yet when we get to the N.T. many will deny this possibility and say...NOOOOO, it had to be 70 A.D. while being oblivious to the consistency of God in the O.T. to prophetically utter a future event woven into a present day context..........it is painfully clear to any honest evaluation that Matthew 24 contains dual prophecy blended into a present day context.....the same is true with Joel's prophecy that is partially fulfilled in Acts.........why is this truth so hard to grasp?

As much as I hate to say it,

What seperates the two camps? (Besides time period)

dcontroversal · Nov 13, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

One thing I drill home to the people I teach......IT IS ALWAYS about TIME and GOD'S TIMING.......even 2nd Thessalonians 2 can be boiled down to TIME when the words LETTETH, LET and TAKEN are studied in GREEK......<---IN HIS TIME

God is a GOD of TIMING and TIME even though he is not subject unto either other than the ALLOTTED time frame he has given under the sun for everything to play out.....

A first day, a last day, his TIME had not yet COME, when it was TIME, in his TIME etc........

iamsoandso · Nov 13, 2018

Revelations chapter 5... is it seems in contrast to Matthew 24.Luke 21and Mark 13 in that the Lamb,Christ had not yet been (slain). So if none could look on it,and none were worthy to open it ect. until after "Jesus was slain" why does everyone feel that Jesus is explaining it in Matt.,Luke and Mark before he is slain?

Hevosmies · Nov 13, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Great post brother

I agree. one OT exampel i can think of is Isaiah 7:14 ! It was a sign in that time to King Ahaz. (You can see that by reading the entire chapter and the following one) BUT it was also a prophecy about JESUS as we see in the NT!

Do you got some other examples of that Dcon?

dcontroversal · Nov 13, 2018

Hevosmies said:

There are many.....I love the O.T.....it tells me more about the future than the N.T. on many occasions.......another one is the fact that TWO NATIONS are woven into scriptures in Isaiah concerning BABYLON.....BOTH are speaking of NATIONS and when we get to Daniel and he translates the writing on the wall....this is what we see...

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN

YET he translates....

MENE-->God hath numbered thy kingdom and finished it

TEKEL-->THOU are weighed in the balances, and art found lacking

PERES<---instead of UPHARSIN-->Thy kingdom is divided and given unto the MEDES and Persians

WHY did he do that.....BECAUSE UPHARSIN is PLURAL and PERES is SINGULAR

MENE x 2

THERE are 2 KINGDOMS identified as BABYLON one O.T. and ONE YET FUTURE.....MANY erroneously identify the second as ROME...false.....

BABYLON is FALLEN, IS FALLEN x 2 <---the SECOND yet FUTURE kingdom is identified as the DAUGHTER of BABYLON and HER CHIEF city is called BABYLON that MEGA CITY that was a MYSTERY to JOHN when he writes Revelation.........

eternally-gratefull · Nov 13, 2018

dcontroversal said:

One thing I drill home to the people I teach......IT IS ALWAYS about TIME and GOD'S TIMING.......even 2nd Thessalonians 2 can be boiled down to TIME when the words LETTETH, LET and TAKEN are studied in GREEK......<---IN HIS TIME

God is a GOD of TIMING and TIME even though he is not subject unto either other than the ALLOTTED time frame he has given under the sun for everything to play out.....

A first day, a last day, his TIME had not yet COME, when it was TIME, in his TIME etc........

His time, Not our time, amen.

Locutus · Nov 13, 2018

stonesoffire said:

Stones - long time no see.

The sheep and goats reference was really about the Jews/Israel - there are no goats in the "church" - the holy spirit determines who is in the kingdom or not.

The goats were cast out in the 1st century AD:

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 13, 2018

iamsoandso said:

I like the question! (don't have time to elaborate at the moment, got a task to tend to)...

I think you are [basically] asking, why would anyone equate "the beginning of birth pangs [plural]" with the "seals [of Rev6]" (as I believe they are to be equated)… [as well as the majority of the Olivet Discourse with what is found in Rev6-19]… and I guess I would point out some things, like how Jesus said even HE did not "know" the day or the hour [context referring to His Second Coming to the earth, as Rev19 is about], yet in the later [after His resurrection/ascension] Rev1:1 (revelation [see the wording there: "WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, to SHEW UNTO His servants..."--see Rev7:3 re: the 144,000, for example]) He discloses FURTHER IMFORMATION regarding THAT VERY SUBJECT.

So Acts 3:22,26 / 7:37 said that Jesus ["His Servant Jesus"] was SENT (in His earthly ministry, first advent) as a Prophet like unto Moses... and what "prophet" does not prophesy SOMEthing…? I believe He was perfectly capable of doing THAT (the parts that God/His Father wanted Him to prophesy at that point before His death).

[more later... gotta dash!]

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 13, 2018

Hevosmies said:

I agree also.

[with one minor caveat: I believe that, out of the entire Olivet Discourse, ONLY Lk21:12-24a (with24b following on from there) covers the 70ad events, the rest is about the far-future [from that perspective] events, leading up to His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. the 7-yrs / 70th-Wk / trib-years--the "things which must come to pass [4:1 futures] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" Rev1:1)]

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 13, 2018

EDIT post #437, I see I misspelled [where it should say] "INFORMATION"

lol

preston39 · Nov 13, 2018

A suggestion for several here....make sure you understand the.... 70th week of Daniel...point I can see many......do not.

Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

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