Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[eternally-gratefull]

sure I do, what does everlasting righteousness mean to you in a prophecy to them about 70 weeks?

Think concerning Daniels prayer, It concerns Israel. If your not part of Israel it has nothing to do with you.

Israel is. In sin, She is being punished her greatest punishment, To her there is no righteousness, Only in part

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There was a transition period of one generation when both the Old and New covenants were followed. In reality the Old covenant ended with Christs death and resurrection but time was allowed for the Jews to repent and the Church to be fully established. If the
Old covenant and its laws were to continue then the Temple wouldn't have been destroyed and the whole OT system would still be
observed today.

If the temple was not destroyed, The jews would still be sacrificing, in fact, they are in the process of trying to restore the temple system as we speak.

 

[iamsoandso]

Daniel 9: 24 lists six things that will be accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks prophecy. I wanted to ask you a question.

Do you think ALL of those six things can be accomplished without the cross?

If you say yes, you have a works gospel which would obviously be a false gospel.

If you say no, you have the same problem the dispensationalist has which I will copy below:

I should correct my last reply to you. You only have the same problem as the dispensationalist if you have the 70th week removed from the 69th week and not following it immediately.

I think you have stated before that you believe the 70th week immediately followed the 69th week. If that is the case, then you have the correct interpretation.

The dispensational interpretation has Jesus crucified AFTER the 69th week and BEFORE the 70th week. That is OUTSIDE the time frame of the 70 weeks. Daniel 9: 24 tells us that those 6 things will be accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks.

This proves from Scripture in Dan 9: 24 that the 70th week followed the 69th week and is not removed to the distant future. The dispensational interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy is proven false by Scripture in Dan 9: 24.

lol, Delirious you have to bare in mind that you are the one who began this thread and that I nor none of the others began it. I have been following along reading the things you post to see if amill atually proves premill incorrect and at times your statements make me curious and so I ask questions about it.
You are new to the forum so you do know me and so you don't realize I describe myself as "out side the camps" and so trying to confront me as disp,amill,pre,pro ect. is only to defend your camp by narrowing down the camp you think I am in. If I am outside the camps then I am at liberty to ask any question without fear of peer pressure and without offending any of the known camps. Think of it as if you are the teacher and I am only the student and it will be a better approach to showing how amill defeats premill or the other camps.

As to the question you ask I would say that Daniel himself, a Prophet stated that he did not understand it( I will give the text) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/12.htm In it you will see that from the ending of the daily and the AOD even the scripture states an amount of time afterwards as to the fulfillment of this(see verse 6). So if Jesus said to wait until the AOD is seen and then after it in Daniel 12 it says there are more days even after that until it's fulfilled should we go with your opinion or scripture's?

You quoted my post to you where I ask you about Romans 13, and 2peter but you did not answer me as to how and why they still saw themselves as still having the fourth beast ordained by God over them as authority I wish you would if you can. I do realize though that you see all four beast ending in aspect to the 70 weeks but that is why I am curious as to why you differ with Romans and 2Peter.

 

[iamsoandso]

You need to go all the way back to lev 26. The final punishment for there sin is total destruction of the city and temple (accomplished by Syria (Israel) Babylon (Judah) and Rome (AD 70, and that they would be scattered throughout ALL the nations, (Actually only accomplished by rome AD 70)

Jeremiah said they would be in captivity from babylon for 70 years (They still had a presence and even a king in Israel, Their king was eventually killed bit they were still in their land, only as prisoners) Daniels prayer was that the 70 years was over, and Israel was still in sin, Accordingn to lev 26, he was praying for his people.

Lev 26:
But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;

if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;

I will remember the land.

This was daniels prayer. As we see from Daniel 9,

Dan 9:
Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.

8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

This is the context of Daniel’s prayer and of Gabriel’s Answer

Daniel was praying for God to be mercyful, and not forget his covenant.

Dan 9: 16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake [a]cause Your face to shine on [b]Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”


The 70 weak prophesy was Gods answer to daniel.

Although Daniel will never see it, The city will be rebuilt, The people will live in the land, The messiah will come, The messiah will be killed. The temple will be destroyed again, and it will remain desolate for many years while wars and desolations continue, A future prince will confirm a covenant, He will break that covenant in the middle of the week, by commiting an abomination of desolation. But he will only be aloud to rule for a time, At the end of this period. Your people will repent. The iniquity will have been completed. Their sins will have been forgotten (again see lev 26) Prophesy concerning Israel will be complete. And what God promised to the fathers will have been completely fulfilled (all covenants)

Then we can look at other prophecies concerning these times (How Messiah will be presented to Isreal as king, what happens after tha abomination of desolation, the gentile beast system,and Gods retoration of Israel after she repents) and we get a clear picture of gods plan through the ages past present and future.

lol, there are a whole lot of scriptures not being mentioned by many are there not?

 

[iamsoandso]

Think concerning Daniels prayer, It concerns Israel. If your not part of Israel it has nothing to do with you.

Israel is. In sin, She is being punished her greatest punishment, To her there is no righteousness, Only in part

Yep,,,"thy people" Daniel 9:24,Daniel 10:14 ect.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, so in Hosea 5:15-6:3 [bsb] (regarding Israel), it says this:

"15 Then I will return to My place until they admit their guilt and seek My face; in their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
"1 Come, let us return to the LORD.
For He has torn us to pieces,
but He will heal us;
He has wounded us,
but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
on the third day He will raise us up,
that we may live in His presence.
3 So let us know—
let us press on to know the LORD.
As surely as the sun rises,
He will appear;
He will come to us like the rain,
like the spring showers that water the earth."


[not "two days" of 24-hr ones, or in "the third day" of a 24-hr one ]

 

[iamsoandso]

I said 2 peter it should be 1 Peter

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lol, there are a whole lot of scriptures not being mentioned by many are there not?

Yeah, they seem to like to take one or two verses that support their view. And focus on them.

Sadly I used to be this way..

 

[delirious]

In Jeremiah 29:5 and Isaiah 65:21 they are told to build houses and settle down because they were going into captivity. Now in Daniel 70 weeks are determined to end transgression,sin...

So Rome is over them when Jesus came and when Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 were written why are they still suppose to honor the authority of Rome as ordained by God?

First, I want to apologize if I put you in a eschatological "camp" that you are not in. I see you dialogue with Locutus a lot so I thought you might be a full-preterist and they believe the 70 weeks were fulfilled in Christ's time like the amillennialist. Now to try and answer your questions:

You mentioned Jer 29: 5 but I am not sure what this has to do with the 70 weeks prophecy. Could you elaborate why you think this has something to do with Daniel's 70 weeks. The Lord seems to be telling the people to go back and "build houses" and dwell in Jerusalem after their 70 year Babylonian captivity is over. I don't see how it relates to Daniels 70 weeks. Maybe you can clarify for me please?

Isaiah 65: 21 is about the "new heavens and earth" as verse 17 tells us. I don't know what this would have to do with Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy either.

In regards to Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 I apologize but I fail to see how submitting to governors and authorities has anything to do with the points I have been making about Daniel's 70th week and how the dispensational interpretation is proven false by Dan 9: 24.

Why are you bringing up all these passages and that seem to have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th week. I apologize for not seeing your point and perhaps you can clarify for me.

 

[delirious]

You need to go all the way back to lev 26. The final punishment for there sin is total destruction of the city and temple (accomplished by Syria (Israel) Babylon (Judah) and Rome (AD 70, and that they would be scattered throughout ALL the nations, (Actually only accomplished by rome AD 70)

Jeremiah said they would be in captivity from babylon for 70 years (They still had a presence and even a king in Israel, Their king was eventually killed bit they were still in their land, only as prisoners) Daniels prayer was that the 70 years was over, and Israel was still in sin, Accordingn to lev 26, he was praying for his people.

Lev 26:
But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;

if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;

I will remember the land.

This was daniels prayer. As we see from Daniel 9,

Dan 9:
Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.

8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

This is the context of Daniel’s prayer and of Gabriel’s Answer

Daniel was praying for God to be mercyful, and not forget his covenant.

Dan 9: 16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake [a]cause Your face to shine on [b]Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”


The 70 weak prophesy was Gods answer to daniel.

Although Daniel will never see it, The city will be rebuilt, The people will live in the land, The messiah will come, The messiah will be killed. The temple will be destroyed again, and it will remain desolate for many years while wars and desolations continue, A future prince will confirm a covenant, He will break that covenant in the middle of the week, by commiting an abomination of desolation. But he will only be aloud to rule for a time, At the end of this period. Your people will repent. The iniquity will have been completed. Their sins will have been forgotten (again see lev 26) Prophesy concerning Israel will be complete. And what God promised to the fathers will have been completely fulfilled (all covenants)

Then we can look at other prophecies concerning these times (How Messiah will be presented to Isreal as king, what happens after tha abomination of desolation, the gentile beast system,and Gods retoration of Israel after she repents) and we get a clear picture of gods plan through the ages past present and future.

This was a nice, well-thought out post. It has a lot of good stuff in it. It still doesn't answer what I provided that proves from Scripture alone that the dispensational interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is false.

"The dispensational interpretation has Jesus crucified AFTER the 69th week and BEFORE the 70th week. That is OUTSIDE the time frame of the 70 weeks. Daniel 9: 24 tells us that those 6 things will be accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks. That includes the "atoning for iniquity".

This proves from Scripture in Dan 9: 24 that the 70th week followed the 69th week and is not removed to the distant future. The dispensational interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy is proven false by Scripture in Dan 9: 24. "

Are you trying to say that those 6 things in Dan 9: 24 can be accomplished apart from Jesus and the cross?

Everlasting righteousness can be brought in apart from Jesus? Jesus did all these things for Daniel's people who were also His people:

Isaiah 53: 5-6,
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

You can not fulfill the 6 things in Daniel 9: 24 apart from the cross. The dispensational interpretation of the 70th week being removed in the future is proven false by Scripture in Daniel 9: 24-27.

 

[delirious]

Yeah, they seem to like to take one or two verses that support their view. And focus on them.

Sadly I used to be this way..

Why would I need to quote the whole Bible when I can provide a simple exegesis of Daniel 9: 24-27 that proves that the dispensational interpretation, that removes the 70th week far into the future, is false? I don't need more Scriptures.

Unless you can answer it, I have shown you from Scripture alone that the dispensational interpretation of Daniels' 70 weeks is false.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The dispensational interpretation of the 70th week being removed in the future is proven false by Scripture in Daniel 9: 24-27.

No it is not. Everlasting righteousness on earth will only be established after the future 70th week of Daniel, after the Abomination of Desolation, after the Great Tribulation, after the second coming of Christ, and well after that. And any suggestion that it is already in effect is pure rubbish.

What all has NOT HAPPENED as yet, or six thing to happen AFTER the second coming:

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[delirious]

No it is not. Everlasting righteousness on earth will only be established after the future 70th week of Daniel, after the Abomination of Desolation, after the Great Tribulation, after the second coming of Christ, and well after that. And any suggestion that it is already in effect is pure rubbish.

What all has NOT HAPPENED as yet, or six thing to happen AFTER the second coming:

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

You missed the point. NONE of these 6 things can be done apart from Jesus and apart from His cross. So the dispensationalist still has the same problem which I will post below again:

"The dispensational interpretation has Jesus crucified AFTER the 69th week and BEFORE the 70th week. That is OUTSIDE the time frame of the 70 weeks. Daniel 9: 24 tells us that those 6 things will be accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks.

This proves from Scripture in Dan 9: 24 that the 70th week followed the 69th week and is not removed to the distant future. The dispensational interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy is proven false by Scripture in Dan 9: 24.

The dispensationalist has Jesus crucified OUTSIDE the 70 weeks which Daniel 9: 24 says is impossible.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The dispensationalist has Jesus crucified OUTSIDE the 70 weeks which Daniel 9: 24 says is impossible.

delirious, I've been trying to come up with a way to word my post in order to come across clearly, but have been struggling on how to do that, so I thought I would just pose a few questions relating (or perhaps not) to your question/comment:

[random order, bullet style... please excuse my lack of clarity here...]

--do you believe Romans 5:11 is related to this subject [by that, I mean, "the atonement"]? [some do, some don't; I'm wanting your take on it; some versions use "the atonement" in this verse, others "the reconciliation" (for this G2643 word), do you believe there's a difference between those two?]

--who are the "we" in the phrase "we have received [active]" (of this verse)?

--when did this happen? (example: at the Cross/Nisan14-15, 32ad?... or perhaps later, like when Paul [apostle and writer of Romans] "received"?... or like when "the Church which is His body" "received"?... or something other?; etc)

--I forget the other thought I had...

I'm just asking these to try to get a better picture of how you see this. Thanks.

 

[delirious]

do you believe Romans 5:11 is related to this subject [by that, I mean, "the atonement"]? [some do, some don't; I'm wanting your take on it; some versions use "the atonement" in this verse, others "the reconciliation" (for this G2643 word), do you believe there's a difference between those two?

I see a big difference between the two.

I don't believe Romans 5: 11 and the word G2643 for "reconciliation" is equivalent to "the atonement" in Daniel 9: 24. Here is why:

The Hebrew word in Daniel 9: 24 that is used "to atone" for iniquity is "Kaphar". It means to "to cover over", "pacify", "make propitiation".

It is Strong's word H3722. The NASB, ESV, NIV and many other versions translate it correctly as "atone". The KJV and NKJV (my personal daily reader) do not translate it correctly and translate it "reconciliation".

It is because of Jesus' atonement at the cross that we can be reconciled by faith. His atonement makes our reconciliation possible. They are definitely not the same.

The "reconciliation" does not happen until someone puts faith in Christ. But Christ has already "atoned" for the sins of the world at the cross.

--who are the "we" in the phrase "we have received [active]" (of this verse)?

As you probably know already Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile believers.

-when did this happen? (example: at the Cross/Nisan14-15, 32ad?... or perhaps later, like when Paul [apostle and writer of Romans] "received"?... or like when "the Church which is His body" "received"?... or something other?; etc)

People are reconciled to God only through faith in Christ. So people are reconciled when they trust in Him.

Hopefully this gives you a better idea of what I see the Scripture teaching.

 

[iamsoandso]

First, I want to apologize if I put you in a eschatological "camp" that you are not in. I see you dialogue with Locutus a lot so I thought you might be a full-preterist and they believe the 70 weeks were fulfilled in Christ's time like the amillennialist. Now to try and answer your questions:

You mentioned Jer 29: 5 but I am not sure what this has to do with the 70 weeks prophecy. Could you elaborate why you think this has something to do with Daniel's 70 weeks. The Lord seems to be telling the people to go back and "build houses" and dwell in Jerusalem after their 70 year Babylonian captivity is over. I don't see how it relates to Daniels 70 weeks. Maybe you can clarify for me please?

Isaiah 65: 21 is about the "new heavens and earth" as verse 17 tells us. I don't know what this would have to do with Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy either.

In regards to Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 I apologize but I fail to see how submitting to governors and authorities has anything to do with the points I have been making about Daniel's 70th week and how the dispensational interpretation is proven false by Dan 9: 24.

Why are you bringing up all these passages and that seem to have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th week. I apologize for not seeing your point and perhaps you can clarify for me.

Yes , locutus do often times have dialog,and I do count him as my friend although we have opposing eschatological views.

I ask about them because you believe we are (IN) the millennial kingdom now. You see either one of the two Paul and Peter are giving advice to the Church of their day about seeing the then reigning kingdom(Rome) as ordained by God and to honor them as such because the mark of the beast has either already came and gone or it has not come yet and they are still receiving their punishment(fourth beast ruling over them) and should see it as by Gods authority. Consider Revelation 13:16-17,,,why are the apostles saying it's alright to see Rome as ordained by God and pay them tribute/dues when Rome only accepted their own Roman money?

 

[delirious]

You see either one of the two Paul and Peter are giving advice to the Church of their day about seeing the then reigning kingdom(Rome) as ordained by God and to honor them as such because the mark of the beast has either already came and gone or it has not come yet and they are still receiving their punishment(fourth beast ruling over them) and should see it as by Gods authority.

You sound like your friend Locutus! Sounds like something a full-preterist would say.

I see Paul and Peter in Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 telling Christians to respect government and authority. I think limiting it to only the Roman government is unwarranted from the context but I guess someone could read it that way. I think it has application for Christians for all generations. We should respect government and authority that God has put in place as long as they don't go against God's Word. God has appointed all nations boundaries and times as this verse says:

Acts 17: 26-27, and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us

Consider Revelation 13:16-17,,,why are the apostles saying it's alright to see Rome as ordained by God and pay them tribute/dues when Rome only accepted their own Roman money?

I see the Mark of the Beast as something an unbeliever spiritually receives because they have bought into (I see this as the buy and sell of Rev 13: 17) this world system and rejected God. They are materialistic, idolaters etc.. The love of the Father is not in them. They love the world and what it has to offer.

It is not a computer chip or banking thing that prevents people from buying and selling. At least not in my opinion.

Notice how the "Mark of the Beast" is on people's forehead or their hands in Rev 14: 9-12. The forehead represents your thoughts/beliefs in the Bible and the hand represents your works/actions.

Unbelievers receive this spiritual mark and that is why you read that they all go to the lake of Fire and perish. That's why it is on their forehead because they don't believe. It is also on their hand because they are judged for their wicked works/actions.

Contrast that with Rev 14: 1. Believers only receive a "seal/mark" on their foreheads but not their hands. Why? Because we believe in Jesus and He is our righteousness. We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. That's why there is only the seal on their foreheads and nothing on their hands.

I know my dispensationalist premillennial friends will vehemently disagree and that is okay. Fair enough.

I sincerely think they are looking for the wrong thing with computer chips and the 70th week was already fulfilled in Jesus' day so there is no 7-year treaty with Antichrist either.

Also you want to remember that the first verse of Revelation says that it is "signified" or "communicated to John by an angel. That word in Greek means "signs". It is encoded in symbols.

Ask this question... Is the seal on the forehead in Rev 14: 1 on God's servants visible? I would say no. They just believe in God. So then why is the Mark of the Beast physical? It's not in my opinion. They belong to the world and the devil. They don't believe in Jesus.

 

[iamsoandso]

You sound like your friend Locutus! Sounds like something a full-preterist would say.

I see Paul and Peter in Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 telling Christians to respect government and authority. I think limiting it to only the Roman government is unwarranted from the context but I guess someone could read it that way. I think it has application for Christians for all generations. We should respect government and authority that God has put in place as long as they don't go against God's Word. God has appointed all nations boundaries and times as this verse says:

Acts 17: 26-27, and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us



I see the Mark of the Beast as something an unbeliever spiritually receives because they have bought into (I see this as the buy and sell of Rev 13: 17) this world system and rejected God. They are materialistic, idolaters etc.. The love of the Father is not in them. They love the world and what it has to offer.

It is not a computer chip or banking thing that prevents people from buying and selling. At least not in my opinion.

Notice how the "Mark of the Beast" is on people's forehead or their hands in Rev 14: 9-12. The forehead represents your thoughts/beliefs in the Bible and the hand represents your works/actions.

Unbelievers receive this spiritual mark and that is why you read that they all go to the lake of Fire and perish. That's why it is on their forehead because they don't believe. It is also on their hand because they are judged for their wicked works/actions.

Contrast that with Rev 14: 1. Believers only receive a "seal/mark" on their foreheads but not their hands. Why? Because we believe in Jesus and He is our righteousness. We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. That's why there is only the seal on their foreheads and nothing on their hands.

I know my dispensationalist premillennial friends will vehemently disagree and that is okay. Fair enough.

I sincerely think they are looking for the wrong thing with computer chips and the 70th week was already fulfilled in Jesus' day so there is no 7-year treaty with Antichrist either.

Also you want to remember that the first verse of Revelation says that it is "signified" or "communicated to John by an angel. That word in Greek means "signs". It is encoded in symbols.

Ask this question... Is the seal on the forehead in Rev 14: 1 on God's servants visible? I would say no. They just believe in God. So then why is the Mark of the Beast physical? It's not in my opinion. They belong to the world and the devil. They don't believe in Jesus.

Then if the Jews minted their own money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage and revolted against Rome and did not give piety to Caesar but revolted instead http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html then the Jews who were involved in the Jewish revolts "did not receive the mark in their hand or forehead"?

 

[delirious]

Then if the Jews minted their own money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage and revolted against Rome and did not give piety to Caesar but revolted instead http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html then the Jews who were involved in the Jewish revolts "did not receive the mark in their hand or forehead"?

I am not sure if you read all of my last post to you. I explained my opinion on what I think the Mark of the beast is. It doesn't have to do with real money.

I don't believe the Mark is physical. It is spiritual. No computer chips and silly things like that.

 

[iamsoandso]

I am not sure if you read all of my last post to you. I explained my opinion on what I think the Mark of the beast is. It doesn't have to do with real money.

I don't believe the Mark is physical. It is spiritual. No computer chips and silly things like that.

Yes I read it and it pretty much is the same as I was taught from birth till about 18 years old. In Revelation 13:15 those who dont worship the image are killed. Now if they are killed it is phyisical because if they do take it then they will be killed(Revelation 19:20-21) and if they don't the beast will kill them. And all of this before the millennial because the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire prior to the milleniel (notice they are already there in Revelation 20:10)...I say this because you see us IN the millennial but you also see the beast and false prophet here instead of in the lake of fire prior to the mill.