Original Sin, fact or fable.

[glf1]

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Deut 24: 16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers, but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

What we received from Adam isn't any kind of original sin that taints us, but rather, since we have sinned, we die just as Adam did for his sin. So that we all die not because Adam sinned, but because all have sinned.

 

[glf1]

Let me add; the Hebrew says, in the day you eat from the tree of good and evil; in dying you will surely die. So that the Spirit left Adam and he suffered a spiritual death; then he died 930 years later because of it.
As a consequence, we are born without the Spirit living within us, which were made to have and as a result, without Christ, we were incomplete for what we were made to be.

 

[pottersclay]

Well let's visit the garden to get to the bottom of this. First let's sum up original sin in one word ready......self.

What happened when our first parents ate of the tree? They found themselves naked in other words became self conscience.
So they covered up and hid. Why....because they were afraid.

One of the most common expressions throughout the Bible is" fear not".
Jesus ministry was about others and to die to self.

Before I knew the Lord it was all about me. What I wanted....what I needed.......how I felt.....me....me...me...me and now that I'm with the Lord and he with me well let's say my thoughts are being transformed by the renewing of my mind.


So yeah original sin is alive and well.......it exsist. Ya see if one thinks that he or she is all that and they control there own destiny well they have become their own god. So that little seed Satan planted in that you will be like gods knowing good and evil this ol world loves to water.
Except you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Deut 24: 16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers, but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

What we received from Adam isn't any kind of original sin that taints us, but rather, since we have sinned, we die just as Adam did for his sin. So that we all die not because Adam sinned, but because all have sinned.

What about babies my friend? The wages of sin is death(Romans 6:23) and if babies die sinless, how is it they make void that verse? Also, Jesus is sinless, how did He die, being sinless? I ask these ? to further the discussion my friend.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If people choose not to read the article then they can only form a comment based on prior teaching and conviction there would be less 1% of people that have reexamined the doctrine which originates with Augustine and picked up by Calvin.

I quoted from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Original Sin, and regardless of Augustine or Calvin, they have correctly identified their doctrine of *Original Sin* from the Bible. No Christian can dispute Romans chapter 5. So there is no need to bother with that MISLEADING article, or keep pushing it as though it is truth.

ROMANS 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man* sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (*ADAM)

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one* many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (*ADAM)

16 And not as it was by one that sinned*, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (*ADAM)

17 For if by one man's offence* death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. (*ADAM)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one* judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (*ADAM)

19 For as by one man's disobedience* many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (*ADAM)

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I hope I don’t soundsilly,but what Is the doctrine of sin?

In a nutshell, the doctrine of sin is simply this -- SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

If you wish to take that one step further -- THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH.

 

[Churinga]

I quoted from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Original Sin, and regardless of Augustine or Calvin, they have correctly identified their doctrine of *Original Sin* from the Bible. No Christian can dispute Romans chapter 5. So there is no need to bother with that MISLEADING article, or keep pushing it as though it is truth.

ROMANS 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man* sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (*ADAM)

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one* many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (*ADAM)

16 And not as it was by one that sinned*, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (*ADAM)

17 For if by one man's offence* death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. (*ADAM)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one* judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (*ADAM)

19 For as by one man's disobedience* many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (*ADAM)

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Did you read the post?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Did you read the post?

Did you read the Scriptures I posted. That should settle the issue.

 

[Churinga]

Did you read the Scriptures I posted. That should settle the issue.

Take your answer as a no.

 

[glf1]

What about babies my friend? The wages of sin is death(Romans 6:23) and if babies die sinless, how is it they make void that verse? Also, Jesus is sinless, how did He die, being sinless? I ask these ? to further the discussion my friend.

Hey! Sackcloth... PTL!
Great questions;
Jesus who fulfilled the law by his obedience became our kinsman redeemer when, by the greatest miracle of all eternity, our sins were put on him. Jesus paid our debt in full with a spiritual death when he cried out; my God. "My God why hast thou forsaken me?" Being for the only time in all of eternity; cut off from the Father and the Spirit because of our sin. Thank-you Jesus! Jesus didn't have to die. He could have called 12 legions of angels, but he came to save his people from their sin.

The wages of sin is both a spiritual death and to be cast into the lake of fire, a second death.
Regarding infants, and let me add, the mentally handicapped or any who never come to know right from wrong.
The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, gave the eater knowledge of good and evil, showing us that to be guilty of sin, one must be able to be aware enough to know what is good and what is evil. imo...
That would make those that died as such, sinless just like the angels.
Maranatha!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Hey! Sackcloth... PTL!
Great questions;
Jesus who fulfilled the law by his obedience became our kinsman redeemer when, by the greatest miracle of all eternity, our sins were put on him. Jesus paid our debt in full with a spiritual death when he cried out; my God. "My God why hast thou forsaken me?" Being for the only time in all of eternity; cut off from the Father and the Spirit because of our sin. Thank-you Jesus! Jesus didn't have to die. He could have called 12 legions of angels, but he came to save his people from their sin.

The wages of sin is both a spiritual death and to be cast into the lake of fire, a second death.
Regarding infants, and let me add, the mentally handicapped or any who never come to know right from wrong.
The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, gave the eater knowledge of good and evil, showing us that to be guilty of sin, one must be able to be aware enough to know what is good and what is evil. imo...
That would make those that died as such, sinless just like the angels.
Maranatha!

So babies are on par with Jesus my friend? And if babies and the mentally challenged are sinless, and the wages of sin is death, then how can they die? Remember, the wages of sin is death. If babies die sinless, you’re making void Romans 6:23.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Hey! Sackcloth... PTL!
Great questions;
Jesus who fulfilled the law by his obedience became our kinsman redeemer when, by the greatest miracle of all eternity, our sins were put on him. Jesus paid our debt in full with a spiritual death when he cried out; my God. "My God why hast thou forsaken me?" Being for the only time in all of eternity; cut off from the Father and the Spirit because of our sin. Thank-you Jesus! Jesus didn't have to die. He could have called 12 legions of angels, but he came to save his people from their sin.

The wages of sin is both a spiritual death and to be cast into the lake of fire, a second death.
Regarding infants, and let me add, the mentally handicapped or any who never come to know right from wrong.
The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, gave the eater knowledge of good and evil, showing us that to be guilty of sin, one must be able to be aware enough to know what is good and what is evil. imo...
That would make those that died as such, sinless just like the angels.
Maranatha!

Jesus did not die a spiritual death my friend. That is a Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Kennith Hagen Sr.(probably Jr. as well), Paul Crouch, et al heretical teaching. He died a physical death, but His Spirit went back to God.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

If you can read the entire article by way of rebuttal saying someone is plain wrong is hardly a fair comment, most creeds and statements of faith allude to Original Sin or the Fall of Man or even Total Depravity.

It is my practice to NOT follow links posted on the internet. So I will probably never read the whole article, but the exerpt you posted was quite enough to get the drift of the author's thinking. The whole premise as I see in that quote of yours is just plain apostate.

Whether that doctrine was called "original sin" in the earliest days, it is still a doctrine in the church today. AFTER ALL WE DID NOT HAVE A DOCRINE OF THE TRINITY UNTIL IT WAS DEFINED AS SUCH in council of Nicaea (circa 200AD) and suceeding councils that addressed that issue.

 

[glf1]

Jesus did not die a spiritual death my friend. That is a Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Kennith Hagen Sr.(probably Jr. as well), Paul Crouch, et al heretical teaching. He died a physical death, but His Spirit went back to God.

Hey! Sackcloth... PTL!
I don't read them, just scripture which offers the hope of being illuminated by the Spirit. I detest all systematic theologies as they are from man; who know nothing as they ought to know, since we see the truth through a glass darkly.
So when our sins were put onto Jesus, both the Father and the Spirit, remained one with Jesus? If that's true why would Jesus cry out, "My God. My God. Why hast thou forsaken me?" Why would Adam have been cut off, if the Father fellowshiped with sinful flesh?
Jesus is the word that was made flesh, he more then anyone could have the body die for a few days like it was nothing; and not bleed sweat the night before because of it.
The wages of sin is not just a physical death. At the great white throne judgment when the books of their works are opened and their name isn't written in the lamb's book of life; they are cast into the lake of fire. That is the wages of sin, the second death, forever. As an example, let's say the law is like the Lord infinite. Jesus being God is able to suffer infinitely so that he could atone for one or for all in that same single sacrifice. Man being finite cannot atone infinitely and so, must atone for eternity.
We've learned with modern medicine that when the heart ruptures, the pericardium, a membrane encapsulating the heart fills with a white blood cells. When the Roman soldier stabbed Jesus in the heart through a rib, that what looked like water flowed tells us that Jesus' heart ruptured as his holy sinless of himself, person had our sins put upon him and had to have the Father and the Spirit reject him because of our sin.
As far as calling such a minor point as this as being heretical as we speculate on what's the truth. Yiiks! lol. Here's an awful thought, lol@usall, Jn 17: 3 "And this is eternal life, that we might know him the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent." So we'll spend eternity learning more and more about the Lord, our infinite God; which means that among our fellow believers, who have revelation as they fellowship with the Lord according to his will for each of us, we'll be able to debate what it all means in New Jerusalem too as we continue to grow in our knowledge of the Lord. : )
Maranatha!

 

[Grandpa]

People tend to unnecessarily complicate issues. This is not complicated.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

When Adam and Eve fell from the garden this is what they fell into. This is what they passed on. Not necessarily on purpose. Just naturally as the consequence of their fall.

Its pretty easy to just watch a baby or a young child and you can see them cry for things that they see and then want. We are the same way but maybe some of us resist better.

 

[Churinga]

People tend to unnecessarily complicate issues. This is not complicated.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

When Adam and Eve fell from the garden this is what they fell into. This is what they passed on. Not necessarily on purpose. Just naturally as the consequence of their fall.

Its pretty easy to just watch a baby or a young child and you can see them cry for things that they see and then want. We are the same way but maybe some of us resist better.

Sin is a conscious act performed by individuals that will contravene mans knowledge of right and wrong it is voluntary not inbred as some want us to believe, babies cry for a multitude of reasons not to exercise their sin nature.

 

[Churinga]

Hey! Sackcloth... PTL!
I don't read them, just scripture which offers the hope of being illuminated by the Spirit. I detest all systematic theologies as they are from man; who know nothing as they ought to know, since we see the truth through a glass darkly.
So when our sins were put onto Jesus, both the Father and the Spirit, remained one with Jesus? If that's true why would Jesus cry out, "My God. My God. Why hast thou forsaken me?" Why would Adam have been cut off, if the Father fellowshiped with sinful flesh?
Jesus is the word that was made flesh, he more then anyone could have the body die for a few days like it was nothing; and not bleed sweat the night before because of it.
The wages of sin is not just a physical death. At the great white throne judgment when the books of their works are opened and their name isn't written in the lamb's book of life; they are cast into the lake of fire. That is the wages of sin, the second death, forever. As an example, let's say the law is like the Lord infinite. Jesus being God is able to suffer infinitely so that he could atone for one or for all in that same single sacrifice. Man being finite cannot atone infinitely and so, must atone for eternity.
We've learned with modern medicine that when the heart ruptures, the pericardium, a membrane encapsulating the heart fills with a white blood cells. When the Roman soldier stabbed Jesus in the heart through a rib, that what looked like water flowed tells us that Jesus' heart ruptured as his holy sinless of himself, person had our sins put upon him and had to have the Father and the Spirit reject him because of our sin.
As far as calling such a minor point as this as being heretical as we speculate on what's the truth. Yiiks! lol. Here's an awful thought, lol@usall, Jn 17: 3 "And this is eternal life, that we might know him the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent." So we'll spend eternity learning more and more about the Lord, our infinite God; which means that among our fellow believers, who have revelation as they fellowship with the Lord according to his will for each of us, we'll be able to debate what it all means in New Jerusalem too as we continue to grow in our knowledge of the Lord. : )
Maranatha!

Did Adam die physically or spiritually?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Sin is a conscious act performed by individuals that will contravene mans knowledge of right and wrong it is voluntary not inbred as some want us to believe, babies cry for a multitude of reasons not to exercise their sin nature.

So what you are trying to promote is the false idea that human beings are not born as fallen creatures with a sin nature INHERITED from Adam (Rom 5:12). That is a total contradiction of Scripture. It is not *as some want us to believe* but it is what GOD WANTS YOU TO KNOW without the shadow of a doubt.

You can say whatever to want about the reason why babies cry, but the fact remains that young children have to be constantly corrected to do right, and stop doing what is naughty, wrong, evil, and sinful, and this continues throughout their lives.

Which is sufficient evidence that tendency to sin resides within every human soul. And which is also the reason why (1) every human being will die physically, and (2) every human being will also face the second death -- eternal separation from God in Hell -- unless they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The fact that every person is born with a sin nature, and sins over an over again, is the reason for the Gospel. It is the reason why Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again for our justification according to the Scriptures.

So what is your agenda in opposing Scriptures (which I have already posted in this thread), and which you should have taken to heart (Q)

 

[Grandpa]

Sin is a conscious act performed by individuals that will contravene mans knowledge of right and wrong it is voluntary not inbred as some want us to believe, babies cry for a multitude of reasons not to exercise their sin nature.

It is a conscious act and it is voluntary.

But it doesn't start out that way. It starts out as the flesh wanting what it wants. The eyes coveting what they see. The will to win and be "better" than your opponent.

Babies cry because they want what they want.

Small children throw tantrums because they covet what their eyes see.

Bigger children get mad and fight because they desire to win.


This is the same in adults, but worse. And most know they are doing wrong when they do it. But that doesn't stop them. It just causes them to make excuses for their behavior.


This is the sin nature, the flesh, inherited from Adam and Eve.

There is only One Way out of this predicament. Its not by will power or strength. Its by the Spirit and that is given by Christ.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[Churinga]

This assessment appears to be totally MISLEADING and contrary to Scripture.

Since the term comes from the Catholic Church, let us see what they say, rather than take second-hand opinions.

According the the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:
Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.... The classical text is Romans 5:12 sqq... (1) The sin of Adam has injured the human race at least in the sense that it has introduced death — "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men".... (2) Adam by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin, "for as by the disobedience of one man many [i.e., all men] were made sinners" (Romans 5:19)... (3) Since Adam transmits death to his children by way of generation when he begets them mortal, it is by generation also that he transmits to them sin, for the Apostle presents these two effects as produced at the same time and by the same causality.

The New Advent article goes on to talk about Pelagians and Catholic doctrine etc. which need not concern us. What is stated above, quoting the relevant Scriptures, is perfectly in accordance with Bible doctrine. So for this man to call it *an evil doctrine* means that he is actually OPPOSING SCRIPTURE. BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS.

What Original Sin means is simply that because of Adam s disobedience, the entire human race came under A CURSE -- the curse of sin and death, which leads to decay and corruption. All human beings are therefore born with a sin nature, and eventually all become sinners, and all need to be saved by God s grace:

ROMANS 3
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God...
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The question must be asked as to whether you read the whole post including all the link?