The 144,000 named in Revelation
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Following you brother but reading this carefully judgement was delayed because of sealing the 144 thousand. The first fruits could indicate that they are comming out of the great tribulation. Notice also the tribe of Levi being one of the tribes. Dan not mentioned.
John referring to them as servants of prophets which this term is in the Bible 19 times. Joel talks about them in the judgement day of God.
John referring to them as servants of prophets which this term is in the Bible 19 times. Joel talks about them in the judgement day of God.
I question this. (Which verses are you referring to?)
Think also of "the woman" in Rev12, where it had said, in verse 1, "there appeared a great wonder IN HEAVEN, a woman...," and then, in verse 6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness," which I believe this "FLED" is parallel with the "FLEE" of Matthew 24:16 and context (at mid-trib). And that is definitely taking place "on the earth". [see verses 13-17]
So, I see nothing in Rev7 indicating that the 144,000 are anywhere other than on the earth. Then, in chpt 14, I still think these 144,000 are on the earth, and here's why I tend to think so. Verse 1 is showing a change of location from where the "Lamb stood" back in chpt 5, here now "on the mount Sion," and now is "accompanying [G3326 - meta] Him" an hundred and forty four thousand. In the next verse, the "a voice from heaven" is something [some-ones] other than the 144,000 [the martyrs, perhaps??] and it is "they" (not the 144,000) who initiate the singing, and it is the 144,000 who then (while still on the earth) "learn that song" (and no one but them could learn it).
Then verse 4 says they were "redeemed from among men" (that can happen while remaining on the earth; just the same as being called "the firstfruit" can, just as we [the Church which is His body] are called that even now); and then in verse 5, there is some question as to whether the phrase "before the throne of God" is in the text (see the various versions here [many of which do not contain this phrase]: https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-5.htm ), but even if it is in the text, it doesn't have to mean they are literally located in heaven, just that they are "without fault" before the throne of God (i.e. in His judgment).
I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, but I have enjoyed reading and considering it.
Think also of "the woman" in Rev12, where it had said, in verse 1, "there appeared a great wonder IN HEAVEN, a woman...," and then, in verse 6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness," which I believe this "FLED" is parallel with the "FLEE" of Matthew 24:16 and context (at mid-trib). And that is definitely taking place "on the earth". [see verses 13-17]
So, I see nothing in Rev7 indicating that the 144,000 are anywhere other than on the earth. Then, in chpt 14, I still think these 144,000 are on the earth, and here's why I tend to think so. Verse 1 is showing a change of location from where the "Lamb stood" back in chpt 5, here now "on the mount Sion," and now is "accompanying [G3326 - meta] Him" an hundred and forty four thousand. In the next verse, the "a voice from heaven" is something [some-ones] other than the 144,000 [the martyrs, perhaps??] and it is "they" (not the 144,000) who initiate the singing, and it is the 144,000 who then (while still on the earth) "learn that song" (and no one but them could learn it).
Then verse 4 says they were "redeemed from among men" (that can happen while remaining on the earth; just the same as being called "the firstfruit" can, just as we [the Church which is His body] are called that even now); and then in verse 5, there is some question as to whether the phrase "before the throne of God" is in the text (see the various versions here [many of which do not contain this phrase]: https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-5.htm ), but even if it is in the text, it doesn't have to mean they are literally located in heaven, just that they are "without fault" before the throne of God (i.e. in His judgment).
I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, but I have enjoyed reading and considering it.
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How can that be when they are shown praising God, and standing before the throne of God (Q)
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders... (Rev 14:3)
We know that the four beasts, or living creatures, or cherubim, surround the throne of God in Heaven, and the 24 elders are also before the throne of God. Since all of that is in Heaven (the third heaven) it would be totally incorrect and misleading to claim that the 144,000 were or are on earth.
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders... (Rev 14:3)
We know that the four beasts, or living creatures, or cherubim, surround the throne of God in Heaven, and the 24 elders are also before the throne of God. Since all of that is in Heaven (the third heaven) it would be totally incorrect and misleading to claim that the 144,000 were or are on earth.
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Well, because what I'm saying is that I believe what verse 2 is saying is "And I [John] heard a great voice FROM [ek - out from] heaven," as though John is not hearing this [in this particular scene] from the perspective of being [himself] IN Heaven (but from seeing "the Lamb standing on the mount Sion"--i.e. on the earth).
So that, what I think when it says, "I heard a voice out from heaven, as the voice of many waters..." he's standing on the earth hearing it come "out-from" heaven... (and "many waters" seems to elsewhere refer to many nations rather than just a singular nation/Israel), so I was suggesting that this voice out-from heaven (the "they" who are singing the "a NEW song around the throne") is DISTINCT from these 144,000 (located on the earth) who are the only ones (yet on earth) who could "LEARN" that song. [the ones in verses 2-3 aren't LEARNING the song, they are SINGING it]
I was suggesting that perhaps the "they" who are singing it "around the throne" (in heaven) may be the martyrs from plural nations. Maybe the 144,000 [from the singular nation] "learn" it for some similar reason.
But I was saying that I see nothing in Revelation 7 that shows the 144,000 to be anywhere other than on the earth.
So that, what I think when it says, "I heard a voice out from heaven, as the voice of many waters..." he's standing on the earth hearing it come "out-from" heaven... (and "many waters" seems to elsewhere refer to many nations rather than just a singular nation/Israel), so I was suggesting that this voice out-from heaven (the "they" who are singing the "a NEW song around the throne") is DISTINCT from these 144,000 (located on the earth) who are the only ones (yet on earth) who could "LEARN" that song. [the ones in verses 2-3 aren't LEARNING the song, they are SINGING it]
I was suggesting that perhaps the "they" who are singing it "around the throne" (in heaven) may be the martyrs from plural nations. Maybe the 144,000 [from the singular nation] "learn" it for some similar reason.
But I was saying that I see nothing in Revelation 7 that shows the 144,000 to be anywhere other than on the earth.
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In Revelation 7, the 144,000 are indeed found on earth, and therefore sealed in order to protect them from the judgments about to be poured out ON THE EARTH.
But Revelation 14 tells us that they were *redeemed from the earth* and *redeemed from among men*, and since they are shown singing BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD (v 3) there can be no doubt that they were raptured from the earth in order to appear before the throne of God in Heaven, *for they are without fault before the throne of God.* (v 5).
So based on the biblical evidence, you will need to abandon your incorrect belief about this group of redeemed Hebrews from the 12 tribes of Israel. They are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.
But Revelation 14 tells us that they were *redeemed from the earth* and *redeemed from among men*, and since they are shown singing BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD (v 3) there can be no doubt that they were raptured from the earth in order to appear before the throne of God in Heaven, *for they are without fault before the throne of God.* (v 5).
So based on the biblical evidence, you will need to abandon your incorrect belief about this group of redeemed Hebrews from the 12 tribes of Israel. They are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.
It seems you didn't grasp my pointing out of the "ek" versus "apo" words used here.
And I'm saying that the text does not say "THEY-THE-144,000" are singing around the throne (the voice like "many waters" is).
Let me add, I did used to think these were being shown in heaven (in chpt 14), but I am no longer convinced of this (though the 24 elders are, and the 4 living creatures are...), based on what I've pointed out.
And I'm saying that the text does not say "THEY-THE-144,000" are singing around the throne (the voice like "many waters" is).
Let me add, I did used to think these were being shown in heaven (in chpt 14), but I am no longer convinced of this (though the 24 elders are, and the 4 living creatures are...), based on what I've pointed out.
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Right.
There are also plenty of verses in the OT that say "before the Lord" which has the people actually "on the earth" doing this (so is also [in part] why I see Job 1 and 2 [and involving Satan] to be a setting taking place "on the earth," rather than "up in heaven," as well). Good point. Yep!
EDIT: I see "the voice out from heaven" (verse 2) who "they sung as it were a new song around the throne," to be distinct from the 144,000 who are the ones who "learn" the song (but on the earth).
There are also plenty of verses in the OT that say "before the Lord" which has the people actually "on the earth" doing this (so is also [in part] why I see Job 1 and 2 [and involving Satan] to be a setting taking place "on the earth," rather than "up in heaven," as well). Good point. Yep!
EDIT: I see "the voice out from heaven" (verse 2) who "they sung as it were a new song around the throne," to be distinct from the 144,000 who are the ones who "learn" the song (but on the earth).
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Right.
There are also plenty of verses in the OT that say "before the Lord" which has the people actually "on the earth" doing this (so is also [in part] why I see Job 1 and 2 [and involving Satan] to be a setting taking place "on the earth," rather than "up in heaven," as well). Good point. Yep!
EDIT: I see "the voice out from heaven" (verse 2) who "they sung as it were a new song around the throne," to be distinct from the 144,000 who are the ones who "learn" the song (but on the earth).
There are also plenty of verses in the OT that say "before the Lord" which has the people actually "on the earth" doing this (so is also [in part] why I see Job 1 and 2 [and involving Satan] to be a setting taking place "on the earth," rather than "up in heaven," as well). Good point. Yep!
EDIT: I see "the voice out from heaven" (verse 2) who "they sung as it were a new song around the throne," to be distinct from the 144,000 who are the ones who "learn" the song (but on the earth).
Heb 12:22 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
I question this. (Which verses are you referring to?)
Think also of "the woman" in Rev12, where it had said, in verse 1, "there appeared a great wonder IN HEAVEN, a woman...," and then, in verse 6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness," which I believe this "FLED" is parallel with the "FLEE" of Matthew 24:16 and context (at mid-trib). And that is definitely taking place "on the earth". [see verses 13-17]
So, I see nothing in Rev7 indicating that the 144,000 are anywhere other than on the earth. Then, in chpt 14, I still think these 144,000 are on the earth, and here's why I tend to think so. Verse 1 is showing a change of location from where the "Lamb stood" back in chpt 5, here now "on the mount Sion," and now is "accompanying [G3326 - meta] Him" an hundred and forty four thousand. In the next verse, the "a voice from heaven" is something [some-ones] other than the 144,000 [the martyrs, perhaps??] and it is "they" (not the 144,000) who initiate the singing, and it is the 144,000 who then (while still on the earth) "learn that song" (and no one but them could learn it).
Then verse 4 says they were "redeemed from among men" (that can happen while remaining on the earth; just the same as being called "the firstfruit" can, just as we [the Church which is His body] are called that even now); and then in verse 5, there is some question as to whether the phrase "before the throne of God" is in the text (see the various versions here [many of which do not contain this phrase]: https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-5.htm ), but even if it is in the text, it doesn't have to mean they are literally located in heaven, just that they are "without fault" before the throne of God (i.e. in His judgment).
I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, but I have enjoyed reading and considering it.
Think also of "the woman" in Rev12, where it had said, in verse 1, "there appeared a great wonder IN HEAVEN, a woman...," and then, in verse 6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness," which I believe this "FLED" is parallel with the "FLEE" of Matthew 24:16 and context (at mid-trib). And that is definitely taking place "on the earth". [see verses 13-17]
So, I see nothing in Rev7 indicating that the 144,000 are anywhere other than on the earth. Then, in chpt 14, I still think these 144,000 are on the earth, and here's why I tend to think so. Verse 1 is showing a change of location from where the "Lamb stood" back in chpt 5, here now "on the mount Sion," and now is "accompanying [G3326 - meta] Him" an hundred and forty four thousand. In the next verse, the "a voice from heaven" is something [some-ones] other than the 144,000 [the martyrs, perhaps??] and it is "they" (not the 144,000) who initiate the singing, and it is the 144,000 who then (while still on the earth) "learn that song" (and no one but them could learn it).
Then verse 4 says they were "redeemed from among men" (that can happen while remaining on the earth; just the same as being called "the firstfruit" can, just as we [the Church which is His body] are called that even now); and then in verse 5, there is some question as to whether the phrase "before the throne of God" is in the text (see the various versions here [many of which do not contain this phrase]: https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-5.htm ), but even if it is in the text, it doesn't have to mean they are literally located in heaven, just that they are "without fault" before the throne of God (i.e. in His judgment).
I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, but I have enjoyed reading and considering it.
If they are before the Throne, Before the 4 beasts, elders where must they be?
If they follow the LAMB where ever he goes...WHERE is the LAMB?
If they are without fault BEFORE the throne where are they?
If the above three indicate HEAVEN then on MOUNT ZION and SEALED...they are sealed by the ANGEL that ASCENDS from the EAST while speaking to an ANGEL DESCENDING TO THE EARTH....where is he ASCENDING TO n order to seal them....BEFORE the FATHER..where is the FATHER?
Logic and common sense dictates they are IN HEAVEN
Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne
I kind of agree with you, except that I believe it (the mount Sion, or the context of the passage under discussion) pertains to their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which is soon-to-commence, from this point in the chronology). And so is, in that sense, literal (a literal promise for literal thing, place, and time).
[and since I believe "the 24 elders" represent "the Church which is His body," I don't say that it is that, exactly ]
[and since I believe "the 24 elders" represent "the Church which is His body," I don't say that it is that, exactly
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