Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

[Grandpa]

There are a couple issues here as I see them.

Just because someone believes in a Higher Power and an afterlife doesn't mean they believe in Spiritual things. It doesn't mean they know what Christ has done for us in order to obtain our Righteousness before God.

Almost all religions believe in a Higher Power and an afterlife. But the main ingredient that they miss is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Way, The Truth and The Life.

The second issue I see is making a big deal about the difference between delivered and saved. Eternally delivered and eternally saved.

Being delivered from a physical event would show God cares for a person and that person is on the road to Salvation.

Being delivered by/from a spiritual event would show that God has saved that person and that person is on the road to the Kingdom.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God spoke to the OT saints personally, we both agree here my friend. However, Hebrews 1 remedies that as now if God speaks to us, it is solely via His word. God no longer speaks to people like He did in the OT.

Romans 10:8ff tells us how the elect are saved. I will insert my exegesis with parentheses inside the verses.

Romans 10:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?(Paul begins asking a bunch of rhetorical questions and the obvious answer(s) are they can not) and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?(they can not) and how shall they hear without a preacher?(they can not)

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?(they can not) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!(here we see how wonderful it is to witness to the lost. No one my friend, who has never had a bible, never had someone witness to them, can know the gospel, which saves people from their sins. God uses means, the gospel is that means, to save people)

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(here is where the proverbial rubber meets the road my friend. Faith does not come from believing in an hereafter, such as a happy hunting ground, a nirvana, an ill-perceived paradise to go to after death, but from God’s word. Seeing the lost are justified by faith, and faith come solely from the word of God, no one who dies without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, dies regenerate, as your group believes. It’s an anti-biblical stance you’re taking to hold up your false gospel my friend.)

At your first postings, I thought that you were not a believer in eternal deliverance by works of man, but according to your posts of late, I can see that you are. Man's obedience to the gospel is eternal deliverance by the works of man. Another thing is that the faith we receive in regeneration (which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit) does not justify us eternally. Jesus's faith is the faith that justifies us eternally (Gal 2:16). Our faith in Jesus delivers (saves) us as we live here on the earth, but has nothing to do with our eternal deliverance.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

At your first postings, I thought that you were not a believer in eternal deliverance by works of man, but according to your posts of late, I can see that you are. Man's obedience to the gospel is eternal deliverance by the works of man. Another thing is that the faith we receive in regeneration (which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit) does not justify us eternally. Jesus's faith is the faith that justifies us eternally (Gal 2:16). Our faith in Jesus delivers (saves) us as we live here on the earth, but has nothing to do with our eternal deliverance.

Are you saying there’s two faiths and two salvations? Wow, get out of Hard Shellism fast my friend if you are saying that.

We are justified by faith, Romans 5:1 affirms that. There is one faith and one salvation. You are perpetually conflating progressive sanctification with salvation. Get out of that cultic sect now my friend.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There are a couple issues here as I see them.

Just because someone believes in a Higher Power and an afterlife doesn't mean they believe in Spiritual things. It doesn't mean they know what Christ has done for us in order to obtain our Righteousness before God.

Almost all religions believe in a Higher Power and an afterlife. But the main ingredient that they miss is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Way, The Truth and The Life.

The second issue I see is making a big deal about the difference between delivered and saved. Eternally delivered and eternally saved.

Being delivered from a physical event would show God cares for a person and that person is on the road to Salvation.

Being delivered by/from a spiritual event would show that God has saved that person and that person is on the road to the Kingdom.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

But they are not missing the main ingredient, as you say. because when God regenerated them (Eph 2:5) he quickened them together with Christ. If I presented the idea that there is a deference in being delivered and being saved, I did not mean to. The Greek interpretation for the word saved is "delivered". The child of God is delivered (saved) here on earth from the consequences of sin when he repents and God forgives him. And the elect were delivered (saved) eternally on the cross and took possession of that delivery when God regenerated him. Phi 1:16 - When an elect is regenerated God began a good work in him and will perform it (when he repents God forgives him) until the day Jesus comes back for them.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God spoke to the OT saints personally, we both agree here my friend. However, Hebrews 1 remedies that as now if God speaks to us, it is solely via His word. God no longer speaks to people like He did in the OT.

Romans 10:8ff tells us how the elect are saved. I will insert my exegesis with parentheses inside the verses.

Romans 10:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?(Paul begins asking a bunch of rhetorical questions and the obvious answer(s) are they can not) and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?(they can not) and how shall they hear without a preacher?(they can not)

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?(they can not) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!(here we see how wonderful it is to witness to the lost. No one my friend, who has never had a bible, never had someone witness to them, can know the gospel, which saves people from their sins. God uses means, the gospel is that means, to save people)

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.(here is where the proverbial rubber meets the road my friend. Faith does not come from believing in an hereafter, such as a happy hunting ground, a nirvana, an ill-perceived paradise to go to after death, but from God’s word. Seeing the lost are justified by faith, and faith come solely from the word of God, no one who dies without knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, dies regenerate, as your group believes. It’s an anti-biblical stance you’re taking to hold up your false gospel my friend.)

And how can they believe if they cannot discern spiritual things and how can they hear if they do not have ears to hear. If you are claiming that believing and obeying the gospel is the cause of your eternal salvation, then it would have to be eternal salvation by the works of man. That is why, my friend, that most of the salvation scriptures has reference to God's children being delivered from the consequences of the sin that they commit when they repent, and when they obey God's commandments. Once a person is regenerated they have the ability to began to believe in spiritual things. They receive faith (which is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit that was given them in regeneration.) And that faith increases as they hear and understand spiritual things, that bring glad tidings of the good news of the gospel telling them how that Jesus saved (delivered) them eternally on the cross. It is not a preachers duty to tell the natural man, that cannot discern what he is saying, how to get saved eternally, but to tell the good news of the gospel to God's children in telling them how that God saved (delivered) them eternally by his Son's death on the cross.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Are you saying there’s two faiths and two salvations? Wow, get out of Hard Shellism fast my friend if you are saying that.

We are justified by faith, Romans 5:1 affirms that. There is one faith and one salvation. You are perpetually conflating progressive sanctification with salvation. Get out of that cultic sect now my friend.

That is exactly what I am saying, and very few believed it when Jesus taught it, and very few still are the only ones that believe it. That is why the church is referred to as the little flock, the remnant, the few, etc. It was even called a cult in the early days as you call it now.

 

[Hevosmies]

Two faiths two salvations....... ANY proof for this, PLEASE? Verses?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That is exactly what I am saying, and very few believed it when Jesus taught it, and very few still are the only ones that believe it. That is why the church is referred to as the little flock, the remnant, the few, etc. It was even called a cult in the early days as you call it now.

If a number no man can number constitutes a few, then how many die lost. By this post of yours, only Hardshells go to heaven my friend.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And how can they believe if they cannot discern spiritual things and how can they hear if they do not have ears to hear. If you are claiming that believing and obeying the gospel is the cause of your eternal salvation, then it would have to be eternal salvation by the works of man. That is why, my friend, that most of the salvation scriptures has reference to God's children being delivered from the consequences of the sin that they commit when they repent, and when they obey God's commandments. Once a person is regenerated they have the ability to began to believe in spiritual things. They receive faith (which is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit that was given them in regeneration.) And that faith increases as they hear and understand spiritual things, that bring glad tidings of the good news of the gospel telling them how that Jesus saved (delivered) them eternally on the cross. It is not a preachers duty to tell the natural man, that cannot discern what he is saying, how to get saved eternally, but to tell the good news of the gospel to God's children in telling them how that God saved (delivered) them eternally by his Son's death on the cross.

You are close to adhering to free grace theology my friend. This erroneous doctrine claims people can live like the devil, yet go to heaven because of God saving them. CTS teaches one can make shipwreck their faith, live like the devil, yet be eternally saved. This is anti-Lordship Salvation in its truest form my friend.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That is exactly what I am saying, and very few believed it when Jesus taught it, and very few still are the only ones that believe it. That is why the church is referred to as the little flock, the remnant, the few, etc. It was even called a cult in the early days as you call it now.

My friend, let us start over and act as if we have never interacted with each other before. Now, what verses show, to you, that there is a time salvation? I am not going back and rereading this thread, so post a verse, one at a time, and we will debate them. Deal?

 

[preacher4truth]

The child of God is delivered (saved) here on earth from the consequences of sin when he repents and God forgives him. .

Let's apply your rather asinine, false and tiresome rules to the above in order to be consistent with you as you attempt to disparage others for the same comments:

You're preaching works salvation. See how that works? It applies to you as well, or, it isn't true at all. How many times have you told us repentance is a work? Except when you use it, right?

That, and you won't answer my posts that show, biblically and contextually, that you are in grave error concerning your CTS heresy. Mark 16:16 is only one passage that shows this.

So you're still incorrect that it is some deliverance only here on earth in time.

Also, these were not children of God prior to being eternally delivered in time; Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2:3 contextually show that these were granted eternal salvation at conversion, showing their prior state.

1) Please show us from properly exegeted Scripture where any apostle taught that the salvation to which they referred was only here in time.

2} Please show us all, in Scripture, proof that the Native Americans were regenerate, and that all who behave like them in your scenario are converted to Christ.

3) Still waiting. Spare me the redundancy of you repeating your indoctrination verbiage, we already know what you believe. Prove your position from Scripture, disprove the Scriptures others and I have given.

4) There must be evidence in church history that others taught this as well. so show us this teaching in the church prior to you PB's coming up with it. Simply alluding to your eisegesis of a text is not proof. You realize this, correct, that reading it into a text isn't proof, and it's actually contrary to 2 Timothy 2:15?

 

[Hevosmies]

Two faiths two salvations....... ANY proof for this, PLEASE? Verses?

^I will probably die of natural causes before I get this answered.

Still waiting for the verses.........

 

[preacher4truth]

3rd Request:

2nd Attempt:

ForestGreenCook,

Would it be accurate to say that due to your PB beliefs, people in the world who have never heard the Gospel, or Christ, nor believe in him, or the Gospel, or any like thing, and who never will are already given eternal life?

 

[preacher4truth]

^I will probably die of natural causes before I get this answered.

Still waiting for the verses.........

When cultists are cornered with questions they just ignore them, or with Scripture that disproves them, they ignore it and ramble in with their indoctrination.

If you ain't drinking the kool-aid and show them their errors plainly with Scripture, they're disinterested in you. Or, they come back with an answer devoid of Scripture, but filled with their verbiage laden in their indoctrination. It is nearly all they can talk about and with this one it is CTS. Everything is CTS.

They know then you're not salvageable "conditionally in time" for their interests so they troll along their false gospel elsewhere hoping to see a glimpse of their system in anyone. Recently FGC praised eternally-gratefull because he thinkshe sees him believing his nonsense. He sees the prey, now he must go in for the kill...lolzzzz.

When they see another they believe to be duped, they praise them. When they think they hooked someone, then see they were wrong they come up with "At your first postings, I thought that you were not a believer in eternal deliverance by works of man, but according to your posts of late, I can see that you are." and "I guess you and I do not believe as much alike as I thought."

Shucks! Foiled again!

 

[preacher4truth]

Still waiting, FGC:

1) Please show us from properly exegeted Scripture where any apostle taught that the salvation to which they referred was only here in time.

2} Please show us all, in Scripture, proof that the Native Americans were regenerate, and that all who behave like them in your scenario are converted to Christ.

3) Still waiting. Spare me the redundancy of you repeating your indoctrination verbiage, we already know what you believe. Prove your position from Scripture, disprove the Scriptures others and I have given.

4) There must be evidence in church history that others taught this as well. so show us this teaching in the church prior to you PB's coming up with it. Simply alluding to your eisegesis of a text is not proof. You realize this, correct, that reading it into a text isn't proof, and it's actually contrary to 2 Timothy 2:15?

You should be capable of answering these, with Scripture, if your theory is true. If all you can do is give a word definition and hypotheses then your teaching is false and man made. Nowhere in Scripture can you prove your PB teaching true, but I am waiting to be proven, from Scripture, incorrect.

 

[preacher4truth]

I believe that I have responded to all of the scriptures that you have given me that you think debunks my belief. If there are any debunk scriptures that I have not responded to, it is just my oversight. I try to deflate them as they are given to me. Sorry if I missed any. Call my attention to them, and I will respond.

The above is a lame cop out. I gave you Scripture and you haven't answered one of them.

It's there, you just fail to see it.

It's not there, you put it in there and can't prove it from Scripture. But, you cannot see this.

Could be because of your dependence upon yourself for your eternal deliverance.

And the above is an outright lie. Typical cultic behavior, resorting to false accusations.

You mad, bro?

(you have some things to answer, and several of us are waiting while you bob and weave)[/QUOTE]

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Two faiths two salvations....... ANY proof for this, PLEASE? Verses?

Save, Saved, salvation according to the Greek definition means "a deliverance". We are delivered (saved) eternally. We are saved (delivered) here on earth every time a child of God repents of a sin and God forgives him, he is delivered from the penalty of that sin as he lives here on earth. Almost all of the salvation scriptures are deliverance we receive right here on earth. When a child of God asks for healing and God grants the healing he has been saved (delivered) from the affliction. When we obey God's commandments, God blesses us for it, delivers us from the results of being disobedient Some salvation scriptures that have reference to deliverance we receive here on earth; Judges 7:2, Ps 34:6, Ps 106:8, Luke 18:42, Acts 27:20, Acts 27:31, Rom 10:1-saved(delivered)from a lack of knowledge.., Rom 10:9- If confessing and believing is the cause of eternal deliverance, then it would be salvation by the works of man. 1 Cor 15:2, has a requirement for man to do which is to remember., Any time that there is a requirement for man to do to receive salvation it is referring to a deliverance here on earth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If a number no man can number constitutes a few, then how many die lost. By this post of yours, only Hardshells go to heaven my friend.

the old profits speak of a wheel within a wheel. A type of the invisible church the outer wheel( which includes all of God's elect ) and the inner wheel (which is the visible church that Jesus set up).

 

[preacher4truth]

FGC,

Saying "It's there, you can't see it" is not evidence, and is not even an argument. You realize this, right?

If it is "there" then you would be able to show it without resorting to circular reasoning. Correct? Yes.

I'm still waiting.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

the old profits speak of a wheel within a wheel. A type of the invisible church the outer wheel( which includes all of God's elect ) and the inner wheel (which is the visible church that Jesus set up).

I have not heard this put this way. To be honest, I do not know what exactly that actually means. It’s over my head.