The 144,000 named in Revelation

[KJV1611]

I understand what you are saying but again I point to the verbiage used and believe it is symbolic......and note the seal is in their foreheads.......

I must go with the verbiage as the clue.....

The angel SEALING is ASCENDING from the east <--same word applied unto JESUS when he ascended
The angel ascending to SEAL is speaking to the angel DESCENDING to the EARTH to do the hurt

I must logically conclude that if the one DESCENDING to the EARTH to hurt is being spoken to by the one ASCENDING from the EAST to seal that he is ascending ABOVE the earth.....

This is also logical because of the LOCATIONS they are tied to

a. Before the THRONE, the 4 beasts and 24 elders <---these are in HEAVEN
b. Before the FATHER <--HE is in HEAVEN --> OUR FATHER who art in HEAVEN
c. THEY follow the lamb wherever he goes <---The LAMB is ALSO in HEAVEN

1 + 1 +1 + 1 = 4

I believe, based upon the verbiage that my conclusions are sound....and again I say that I have heard NO ONE ever deal with the 11 characteristics of this group and only flippantly answer with the same ole peddle belief......

Rom 16:5 (KJV) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Romans 16:5 identifies who “the firstfruits unto Christ” are, they are the first to believe on Christ. Doesn’t that automatically rule out the children Herod killed?

Those children died BEFORE anyone even knew who Christ was and they weren’t old enough to accept Christ even if they did know who he was.

 

[KJV1611]

A couple posts have touched on important clues.
Firstfruits speaks to purpose.
Most don't realize what their purpose is .(the 144k).

Firstfruits means they are " the first" ....and about a tenth of the main harvest

Harvest <> firstfruits.

They are part of harvest.

Seems most all here skip what is possibly the most important component. It is easy to do.

I agree and it really tells us exactly who the 144000 were, they were the very first converts during the time of Christ... Kinda of makes us have to look at the book of Revelation in a completed different light.

 

[dcontroversal]

TRUTH, there is no truth in yer theory,

Way more truth than the blather you bloviate....

 

[dcontroversal]

Rom 16:5 (KJV) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Romans 16:5 identifies who “the firstfruits unto Christ” are, they are the first to believe on Christ. Doesn’t that automatically rule out the children Herod killed?

Those children died BEFORE anyone even knew who Christ was and they weren’t old enough to accept Christ even if they did know who he was.

Old enough to accept Christ.....they, as the first martyrs in the name of Christ, died pure before the throne their based upon their age and innocence.... and pay attention to context, your cited verse in no way, shape or form negates my points concerning them being the 1st fruits UNTO GOD as the wave offering offered by Christ....you are conflating three issues based solely upon a single word...........

 

[KJV1611]

Old enough to accept Christ.....they, as the first martyrs in the name of Christ, died pure before the throne their based upon their age and innocence.... and pay attention to context, your cited verse in no way, shape or form negates my points concerning them being the 1st fruits UNTO GOD as the wave offering offered by Christ....you are conflating three issues based solely upon a single word...........

We know what the firstfruits of Christ are per scripture, they’re not martyrs they’re Jewish believers in Christ.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

OK, but this wiki page coincides with actual Roman Archive and the Ruler who handled John at Patmos was Domitian according to Roman Archive. I am able to use to wiki since it matches 100% to Roman Archive. And Roman Archive claims you are wrong. And I believe Roman Archive is definitely more accurate than your opinion in this matter.

And yes, the Temple will be standing during the Tribulation period because the antichrist will defile it.
But verse 2 of chapter 11 also claims the Temple is gone so God did not have them measure the court.
Looks like you are picking and choosing scripture but actually none of it is lining up, including your list of Roman leaders.
The majority of biblical scholars agree John was in Patmos around 95/96 A.D. and lived to be a very old man in Ephesus.
But the big key is verse 3 the 2 witnesses that get killed and come back to life. Nowhere in the 70 A.D. do historians claim this event took place. Clearly this is about the future as in our time and beyond, not the 70 A.D. destruction.

I took a quick look at your reference of "Roman Archves". So some guy decides this is history according to him.
I don't know why you are fighting against historical fact but it is not my mission to do more than give you facts and let you LOGICALLY decide if those fact fit history. There ARE better, MUCH BETTER references than Wikipedia. Early church "fathers", the 3 chief apostolic fathers: Irenaeus, Clement and Ignatius. Josephus.

I see some internet sites have Domintian following Nero as the next Caesar but the lineage was:
Nero/Galba/Vespasian/Titus/ Domitian and etc. spanning 30 years.

I think you might be of the pre-mil view, therefor you are looking to a tribulaton time, while I am of the historic view and looking for Jesus. Therefor you need a later date for Revelation. Marantha

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Where I am coming from is the word virgin in scripture is used mainly to represent the chaste virgin bride of Christ, the church . The theme of the bible. Christ and his chaste virgin bride. Mankind who do not fornicate with the gods of this world (were not defiled with women)

She is shown in that parable in Revelation 12 . And is included in the 144,000 a metaphor in that parable used to represent all the father gave to the Son as the eternal chaste virgin bride the church.

New creatures redeemed from mankind (men and woman make up one creation) . The first fruits is our new incorruptible bodies as a new creation. Neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.




The word maid simply denotes young woman. She could be a un-married prostitute . The virginity is inspect to the unmarried or widows. Widows and fatherless (no heavenly father) is what we were before in Christ we heard the wedding proposal, the gospel of our salvation .

Have it all your way

 

[marinerscatch]

I took a quick look at your reference of "Roman Archves". So some guy decides this is history according to him.
I don't know why you are fighting against historical fact but it is not my mission to do more than give you facts and let you LOGICALLY decide if those fact fit history. There ARE better, MUCH BETTER references than Wikipedia. Early church "fathers", the 3 chief apostolic fathers: Irenaeus, Clement and Ignatius. Josephus.

I see some internet sites have Domintian following Nero as the next Caesar but the lineage was:
Nero/Galba/Vespasian/Titus/ Domitian and etc. spanning 30 years.

I think you might be of the pre-mil view, therefor you are looking to a tribulaton time, while I am of the historic view and looking for Jesus. Therefor you need a later date for Revelation. Marantha

Well no, I am looking at who took credit for placing John in Patmos. Under the writings of Domitian, he is the only Emperor who not only mentions John, but takes full credit for capturing John and placing him at Patmos. Nero had the Disciples murdered after being tortured. Nero even wrote of the regret he had for not catching John. So clearly, Nero did not place John at Patmos, Domitian did.

 

[dcontroversal]

We know what the firstfruits of Christ are per scripture, they’re not martyrs they’re Jewish believers in Christ.

Take it up with the word.....the definite article is applied unto the 144,000 and the word firstfruits UNTO GOD..........end of story! And lets go the other route....

Show me verbatim a verse which states the 144,000 believed into JESUS....we will all wait....and then address ALL 11 characteristics and the 4 locations they are identified with.....which none of you have done....

 

[KJV1611]

Take it up with the word.....the definite article is applied unto the 144,000 and the word firstfruits UNTO GOD..........end of story! And lets go the other route....

Show me verbatim a verse which states the 144,000 believed into JESUS....we will all wait....and then address ALL 11 characteristics and the 4 locations they are identified with.....which none of you have done....

it’s not given verbatim in one verse that I know of but it is given verbatim in two verses.

Epaenetus was called a firstfruit unto Christ because he was one of the first Christians. That gives you the definition of what a “firstfruit unto Christ” is.

The 144000 were also called a firstfruit unto Christ.... by definition they are early Christians.

 

[KJV1611]

What exactly is the wave offering? If I remember correctly they just wave sheaves in the air moving the air around... is this correct?

 

[dcontroversal]

What exactly is the wave offering? If I remember correctly they just wave sheaves in the air moving the air around... is this correct?

Go study it bro.....the 144,000 typifies the wave offering.......the first offering of the wheat harvest......they are the firstfruits unto GOD.....

 

[dcontroversal]

it’s not given verbatim in one verse that I know of but it is given verbatim in two verses.

Epaenetus was called a firstfruit unto Christ because he was one of the first Christians. That gives you the definition of what a “firstfruit unto Christ” is.

The 144000 were also called a firstfruit unto Christ.... by definition they are early Christians.

Show me where they are identified as Christians....when they believed, were immersed and called Christians.....called firstfruits.....I see that, but nowhere are they identified as Christians....that is your embellishment....

 

[KJV1611]

Go study it bro.....the 144,000 typifies the wave offering.......the first offering of the wheat harvest......they are the firstfruits unto GOD.....

No grain was actual offered for a wave offering was it?

 

[KJV1611]

Show me where they are identified as Christians....when they believed, were immersed and called Christians.....called firstfruits.....I see that, but nowhere are they identified as Christians....that is your embellishment....

Ok so are you’re saying that sometimes firstfruit unto Christ means early Christians and sometimes firstfruits unto Christ means martyred babies?

 

[dcontroversal]

The wave offering or sheaf offering or omer offering (korban omer) was an offering made by the Jewish priests unto God (Exodus 29:24, 26, 27; Leviticus 7:20-34; 8:27; 9:21; 10:14, 15, etc.). The sheaf or wave-offering then became the property of the priests. The omer offering (Hebrew korban omer, minchat omer) was a grain sacrifice wave offering, brought to the Temple is Jerusalem.

Bro....the bigger picture....this is the OFFERING JESUS MAKES unto GOD as the HIGH PRIEST.....they ARE the WAVE OFFERING of the firstfruits which HE then KEEPS and they FOLLOW HIM where ever he GOES...When REVELATION is written they are ALREADY IN HEAVEN, having BEEN offered before the THRONE, the elders and the 4 beasts......

The martyrs FOR and in the PLACE of JESUS as 144,000 BOYS from ALL of ISRAEL is the FIRSTFRUTS UNTO GOD by the HIGH PRIEST and it LOGICALLY and BIBLICALLY makes sense.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Ok so are you’re saying that sometimes firstfruit unto Christ means early Christians and sometimes firstfruits unto Christ means martyred babies?

NO....I am saying this GROUP was martyred in the name of and place of JESUS.....and ALL believers will be identified with CHRIST.......

 

[KJV1611]

The wave offering or sheaf offering or omer offering (korban omer) was an offering made by the Jewish priests unto God (Exodus 29:24, 26, 27; Leviticus 7:20-34; 8:27; 9:21; 10:14, 15, etc.). The sheaf or wave-offering then became the property of the priests. The omer offering (Hebrew korban omer, minchat omer) was a grain sacrifice wave offering, brought to the Temple is Jerusalem.

Bro....the bigger picture....this is the OFFERING JESUS MAKES unto GOD as the HIGH PRIEST.....they ARE the WAVE OFFERING of the firstfruits which HE then KEEPS and they FOLLOW HIM where ever he GOES...When REVELATION is written they are ALREADY IN HEAVEN, having BEEN offered before the THRONE, the elders and the 4 beasts......

The martyrs FOR and in the PLACE of JESUS as 144,000 BOYS from ALL of ISRAEL is the FIRSTFRUTS UNTO GOD by the HIGH PRIEST and it LOGICALLY and BIBLICALLY makes sense.....

I’m trying to learn... why would small boys need to be offered in the place of Jesus?

 

[dcontroversal]

I’m trying to learn... why would small boys need to be offered in the place of Jesus?

Jesus was born to be king.....Again I want to remind ALL of a few facts that get overlooked......these boys all under two were killed by Herod out of jealousy and spite in an attempt to KEEP ISRAEL'S KING from living......it states clearly that he killed all the boys in ALL ISRAEL under two based upon the saying and "IN the COASTS THEREOF"

NOTE......the prophecy fulfilled on that DAY about RACHAEL WEEPING for HER CHILDREN and HER CHILDREN ARE NOT is A BIG clue......why is it a clue.....

HEROD would have KNOWN that the KING would come from the LINEAGE of JUDAH and the LINE of DAVID....yet the PROPHECY deals with RACHAEL which did not bear the child which would be the lineage of JUDAH......SHE bore JOSEPH and BENJAMIN.........I cannot remember the exact verbiage, but remember reading a lone verse that attributes ALL of the children of JACOB unto RACHAEL because SHE was the one he loved.

Jesus as the LONE HIGH PRIEST after the order of Melchizedek offered HIMSELF without spot and or blemish and then offered the 144,000 as the firstfruits of the harvest. Again my view based upon ALL the facts when taken as a whole......the 11 characteristics found in Revelation 14, including the locations listed, to the use of the word ascending (concerning the angel that seals) and the prophecy of Rachael ALL fit the 144,000.........Concerning the angel that seals<-----NOTE this is UNIQUE and is not the HOLY SPIRIT sealing IN SALVATION

Why would an angel of the LORD ascend to SEAL this group when it is the Holy Spirit that SEALS believers?

I am telling all from over three decades of study that this whole deal with the 144,000 is a very unique anomaly in scripture and when all the facts are viewed without bias, preconceived ideas and open to truth it makes sense.......

 

[povawiqe]

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

No. The 144,000 chosen will be a mix of a remnant from the sons of Jacob to the believers sealed with the anointing at the second coming of the Messiah, which will be a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, which will become the new Israel, glorified, immortal, 144,000 chosen.