Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[cv5]

Amen brother! Please just be patient with "Baptistbiblebeliever" because I use to be in his shoes until I started studying the Word with the baptist vail removed and discovered how silly their doctrines were!

It seems to me that the leadership of some churches defy the scripture in some bizarre form of rebellion and create schism where they need not. Denominationalism is contrary to the High Priestly prayer of John 17. And some of the doctrine of Baptists (no wine??? requirement for water baptism etc) doesn't make sense. But many Baptist Churches are in name only and are quite scripturally sound. They should just drop the name Baptist. I know I would.

 

[mobius8curve]

I left all the denominations a long time ago and only adhere to the sum of Father's Word so my coctrines are sound in the Word! Please take some time and consider any of my links with an open mind to only accept the scriptures as they are written!

 

[cv5]

No its a case of the spirit being saved at the beginning of their salvation but the soul has not been fully repentant through faith:

1 Peter 1:9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

That is the result of continuing faith, not some kind of unmeasurable quantity of faith. Same goes for sanctification. If you are trusting in Christ, you simply are, it is a state of continual being. Same goes for sanctification.....its a continual process with the goal being the final redemption of our bodies to eventual glorification.

 

[mobius8curve]

No that is the result of maturing in our faith from a babe to a child to a full grown man in Christ:

Hebrews 5:12-14 For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. (13) For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. (14) But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) of the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (3) And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[cv5]

No that is the result of maturing in our faith from a babe to a child to a full grown man in Christ:

Hebrews 5:12-14 For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. (13) For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. (14) But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) of the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (3) And this will we do, if God permit.

"No that?"
I certainly do not disagree with the maturity concept and requirement. But again....ALL believers living will mature by degrees. All. The thief on the cross matured as well, just not for long.

 

[mobius8curve]

Please tell me who this applies to:

Matthew 18:7-9 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! (8) And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. (9) And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.

 

[cv5]

Please tell me who this applies to:

Matthew 18:7-9 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh! (8) And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire. (9) And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.

Woe unto the world
Judgment on unbelievers.
And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble
Exhortation to sanctification.

 

[mobius8curve]

Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples:

Matthew 18:1 In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

So tell me who are the brethren here:

James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; (20) let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Do you understand the OT was written directly to the old covenant believers just as much as the NT was written to the new covenant believers???

 

[cv5]

Jesus was speaking directly to his disciples:

Matthew 18:1 In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

So tell me who are the brethren here:

James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; (20) let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

Do you understand the OT was written directly to the old covenant believers just as much as the NT was written to the new covenant believers???

Evidently you are of the "lose your salvation" camp. Sorry about that, but I will not argue the point. Exhortation to sanctification and one brother exhorting another for obedience is hardly losing your salvation.

 

[mobius8curve]

Is a believer a branch on the vine or an unbeliever???:

John 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. (3) Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. (4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[cv5]

Is a believer a branch on the vine or an unbeliever???:

John 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. (3) Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. (4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. (6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Ahhhhmmmm…...why don't you state your point. I will not respond to innuendo.
I am very well aware of the meaning of that portion scripture. The non fruit bearing branches are causal disciples who bear no fruit (The unsaved who attend church but do not have faith). Not true disciples who do.

You are grievously mistaken. The saved are indeed saved to the end. Guaranteed.

 

[mobius8curve]

If what you say is true then why did Peter say this about those Christians who h"ave escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first":

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. (21) For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (22) It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

 

[cv5]

If what you say is true then why did Peter say this about those Christians who h"ave escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first":

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. (21) For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (22) It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.

What happened? They left the faith. Very simple. True believers never leave the faith.
We are done here. I am not interested in spoofing scripture.

 

[mobius8curve]

We are not "spoofing" the scripture but simply examining them to see if these things are so:

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.

**Link removed**

 

[cv5]

We are not "spoofing" the scripture but simply examining them to see if these things are so:

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.

Please study this link and tell me what Jesus was trying to convey:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/03/19/parable-of-the-sower/

No no no. You tell me exactly what your doctrinal position is first of all. If I approve then I will debate furthur.

 

[mobius8curve]

What is more important to you? What either of us believe at the moment or what the scriptures actually teach???

 

[Nehemiah6]

Please study this link and tell me what Jesus was trying to convey..

The article you have posted stated: (a) “Once saved always saved” is another one of these false teacher’s pet lies... (b) that encourages many believers to become lazy or even forsake putting to death their flesh through the leading of the Spirit of God though it is commanded of us brethren as debtors...

We have two separate issues presented here which are treated as a single issue.

(a) “Once saved always saved” is another one of these false teacher’s pet lies...
What it is saying is that the eternal security of the believer is NOT solid Bible doctrine, but a lie promoted by false teachers. And that is TOTALLY FALSE. Dozens of Scriptures teach that the believer is eternally secure in Christ, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, so I will not even quote any. The Parable of the Sower teaches that genuine Christians will bring forth spiritual fruit in varying degrees, whereas the unsaved will not.

(b)...that encourages many believers to become lazy or even forsake putting to death their flesh...
It is entirely possible that many people use the eternal security of the believer as an excuse to do nothing, and continue in their sinful ways. But that is not the fault of the doctrine, or of Scripture, since the Bible makes it perfectly clear that those who are saved must live righteously:

TITUS 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

While this article has no bearing on the OP, it was necessary to point out that it is a MIXTURE OF TRUTH AND ERROR. Which is unfortunate.

Getting back to the OP, it is simply an attack on the Pretribulation and Premillennial Rapture of the Church, which is nothing new. Those are not false doctrines, but Bible truth for those who have ears to hear rather than listen to nonsensical propaganda.

 

[cv5]

What is more important to you? What either of us believe at the moment or what the scriptures actually teach???

Bye bye. You had your chance. Goodbye.

 

[cv5]

The article you have posted stated: (a) “Once saved always saved” is another one of these false teacher’s pet lies... (b) that encourages many believers to become lazy or even forsake putting to death their flesh through the leading of the Spirit of God though it is commanded of us brethren as debtors...

We have two separate issues presented here which are treated as a single issue.

(a) “Once saved always saved” is another one of these false teacher’s pet lies...
What it is saying is that the eternal security of the believer is NOT solid Bible doctrine, but a lie promoted by false teachers. And that is TOTALLY FALSE. Dozens of Scriptures teach that the believer is eternally secure in Christ, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, so I will not even quote any. The Parable of the Sower teaches that genuine Christians will bring forth spiritual fruit in varying degrees, whereas the unsaved will not.

(b)...that encourages many believers to become lazy or even forsake putting to death their flesh...
It is entirely possible that many people use the eternal security of the believer as an excuse to do nothing, and continue in their sinful ways. But that is not the fault of the doctrine, or of Scripture, since the Bible makes it perfectly clear that those who are saved must live righteously:

TITUS 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

While this article has no bearing on the OP, it was necessary to point out that it is a MIXTURE OF TRUTH AND ERROR. Which is unfortunate.

Getting back to the OP, it is simply an attack on the Pretribulation and Premillennial Rapture of the Church, which is nothing new. Those are not false doctrines, but Bible truth for those who have ears to hear rather than listen to nonsensical propaganda.

Pre trib rapture and premillenialism is rock solid. I have yet to see an alternative that makes any sense.

 

[cv5]

**quoted post removed**
Rock solid buddy. Its going to happen pre trib. Trust me.