Sheep and goats. Separate from, or same as The great white throne judgment?

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Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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I see two opinions of this floating around.

Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millenium.

I base this opinion on Matthew 25:31 which says that when Jesus comes in glory with angels. Therefore I believe it cannot be the great white throne, because where would Jesus be "coming from" with the angels if He is already on the earth during the millennium?

You see my point?

If you disagree with me, prove your point from Scripture! And lets discuss it!
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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Oh I forgot: The argument that does favor opposing view to mine, that it indeed IS the Great white throne judgment is the last verse in the chapter. 46. Which states that the result is ETERNAL LIFE for the sheep, not living in the flesh in a millennium. Likewise for the goats its eternal damnation.

But again the issue is verse 31, where Jesus is coming in glory with angels. Clearly second coming imo!
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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Are you only wanting to hear from those who oppose the "Second Coming to the earth" viewpoint, or also from those who agree with it?

I continually offer the parallel verse (parallel to your verse 31), which is Matthew 19:28 (which also has parallels):

"And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

[see also Luke 22:30,16,18; and then parallel to that is Matthew 26:29 "until that day when I drink it NEW WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] YOU in My Father's kingdom." (the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom; aka the "shall sit down [G347; Mt8:11 and parallel]," aka "the meal" [Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44], aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom of the heavens [located on the earth, when He 'returns']")]
 
J

John146

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#4
Hevosmies said:
I see two opinions of this floating around.

Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millenium.

I base this opinion on Matthew 25:31 which says that when Jesus comes in glory with angels. Therefore I believe it cannot be the great white throne, because where would Jesus be "coming from" with the angels if He is already on the earth during the millennium?

You see my point?

If you disagree with me, prove your point from Scripture! And lets discuss it!
Click to expand...
Agree. They are judged based upon their treatment of the nation of Israel. Those nations who sided with Israel are likened to His sheep. Those who were against the nation of Israel are likened to goats.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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Hevosmies said:
I see two opinions of this floating around.

Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millenium.

I base this opinion on Matthew 25:31 which says that when Jesus comes in glory with angels. Therefore I believe it cannot be the great white throne, because where would Jesus be "coming from" with the angels if He is already on the earth during the millennium?

You see my point?

If you disagree with me, prove your point from Scripture! And lets discuss it!
Click to expand...

Jesus seems to be distinguishing those who either helped those in need,(the sheep) and those that didn't help those in need (the goats), WITH HIS BRETHREN.

Why make the distinction between the sheep here and His Brethren, unless He is talking about His Physical, Blood Brethren, the believing Jews that survive the Great Tribulation, that were helped by the believing Gentiles during the Great Tribulation.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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PennEd said:
Jesus seems to be distinguishing those who either helped those in need,(the sheep) and those that didn't help those in need (the goats), WITH HIS BRETHREN.

Why make the distinction between the sheep here and His Brethren, unless He is talking about His Physical, Blood Brethren, the believing Jews that survive the Great Tribulation, that were helped by the believing Gentiles during the Great Tribulation.
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This is refreshing to read…..so many today seem to prefer the cart before the horse.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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^ Agreed. (y) The Sheep of the nations and the goats of the nations are both distinct from "the least of these My brethren" [v.40] (who are not being judged/separated in this context).
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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Well this thread was a bummer. Everyone agrees with me. I thought this was the internet :D

Where are all the opposing view representatives? Did we completely demolish their whole argument already and they got nothing to prove their point that sheep and goats judgment is the great white throne judgment?
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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Perhaps if everyone would relate this sheep and goat debate to the parble of the wheat and the tres.

The tares are left to grow with the wheat lest if they remove the tares the wheat be damaged also. Come the great harvest the workers will separate the wheat from the tares as they harvest and the tares will be thrown into the fire......does this help?
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Hevosmies said:
Well this thread was a bummer. Everyone agrees with me. I thought this was the internet :D

Where are all the opposing view representatives? Did we completely demolish their whole argument already and they got nothing to prove their point that sheep and goats judgment is the great white throne judgment?
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Ok I'll try to spice this up a little bit. :cool:

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The Jesus told the high priest that from then forward he will see Jesus sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus returned in the lifetime of the high priest so it's possible that the sheep and goat judgement happened at that coming.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Hevosmies said:
Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millenium.
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I would suggest not AT the second coming, but just before the beginning of the Millennium. This is the judgment of the nations. Armageddon is at the second coming.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Hevosmies said:
I see two opinions of this floating around.

Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millenium.

I base this opinion on Matthew 25:31 which says that when Jesus comes in glory with angels. Therefore I believe it cannot be the great white throne, because where would Jesus be "coming from" with the angels if He is already on the earth during the millennium?

You see my point?

If you disagree with me, prove your point from Scripture! And lets discuss it!
Click to expand...
Bema Seat of Christ for the saved and rewarded for service rendered

Great White Throne of GOD for the LOST, judged guilty and cast from the presence of God.....!
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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#13
Nehemiah6 said:
Hevosmies said:
Me PERSONALLY I believe the sheep and goats judgment occurs at the second coming, not after the millennium.
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I would suggest not AT the second coming, but just before the beginning of the Millennium. This is the judgment of the nations. Armageddon is at the second coming.
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Not to speak for Hevosmies, but I perceived the question to be more like,

"surrounding the Second Coming point in time, as opposed to the later GWTj point in time" (of these two choices, which one is the Sheep & goats judgment/separation taking place?). Something like that, not pinpointing the exact minute of it.

But I understand your point as well. :)


_______

As for "judgments," there are several. Some list as many as seven, or nine, or something like that...

The GWTj is not the Sheep & goats j, is not the Bema throne...
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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KJV1611 said:
Jesus returned in the lifetime of the high priest so it's possible that the sheep and goat judgement happened at that coming.
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Full preterism? Wow.

WHEN did Jesus return? Why are we still here? No new heaven, no new earth. Sin still going rampant, wicked getting worse and worse.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Hevosmies said:
Full preterism? Wow.

WHEN did Jesus return? Why are we still here? No new heaven, no new earth. Sin still going rampant, wicked getting worse and worse.
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I'm not full preterism, I believe Christ will return in the future. All I am saying is that Jesus went to hell and returned 3 days later so every time the bible Jesus mentions Jesus returning its not always talking about his final return at the end.

This is why there's so much confusing and debate about his return, because every mention of his return is not about the end. People can accept this truth or not but no one can argue the fact that Jesus left the earth, went to hell and returned to earth.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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KJV1611 said:
I'm not full preterism, I believe Christ will return in the future. All I am saying is that Jesus went to hell and returned 3 days later so every time the bible Jesus mentions Jesus returning its not always talking about his final return at the end.

This is why there's so much confusing and debate about his return, because every mention of his return is not about the end. People can accept this truth or not but no one can argue the fact that Jesus didn't leave, go to hell and return to earth.
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Okay, so people saw Jesus "coming in the clouds" when returning from hell to earth?

How does that work? Hell doesnt seem too "cloudy" to me? Also, Jesus only revealed Himself after the resurrection to His followers, no?
 
Locutus

Locutus

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The sheep and goats statement was about the land of Israel in the first century. Nothing to do with the church.

Paul alludes to this in Galatians:

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The children of the bondwoman (goats) were cast out in the war of 66-70 AD.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The Jewish/Israelish followers of Jesus inherited the kingdom when the goats (children of the bondwoman) were cast out.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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Hevosmies said:
Okay, so people saw Jesus "coming in the clouds" when returning from hell to earth?

How does that work? Hell doesnt seem too "cloudy" to me? Also, Jesus only revealed Himself after the resurrection to His followers, no?
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Let me answer your question by asking a question. Are the clouds clouds of water vapor or are they clouds of witnesses?

(Heb 12:1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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You guys....... I cant take this seriously im sorry. Preterism is just something else let me tell you. CLOUD can mean many things, but in CONTEXT we see what it means.

As for what Locutus just made up, absolutely ridicilous and FALSE:

The saints DID NOT inherit the kingdom, they were PERSECUTED and lived miserable lives on this earth after 70AD...... Most early church fathers were martyred. As per usual, Locutus saying something FALSE:

Goats are not cast out of Jerusalem after surrounded by pagan army, another falsehood. The goats go to HELL, eternal punishment, you know, like it says in Matthew 25:46. It doesnt say there were kicked out of Jerusalem, RIDICILOUS

@Locutus you claim to have "studied" dispensationalism and proven how bad it is, and if this is what you switched dispensationalism to, WOW. You have been DECEIVED. I dont agree with everything dispies say, however they are MUCH closer to the truth than you, that is fo sure.

We often say "eschatology doesn't matter". I would agree with that but the exception is FULL preterism, it guarantees you will run into deception, stop watching since everything has already happened, and makes you susceptible to taking the mark of the beast. (Since you falsely believe its already happened).
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

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I would also add to
Hevosmies said:
You guys....... I cant take this seriously im sorry. Preterism is just something else let me tell you. CLOUD can mean many things, but in CONTEXT we see what it means.

As for what Locutus just made up, absolutely ridicilous and FALSE:

The saints DID NOT inherit the kingdom, they were PERSECUTED and lived miserable lives on this earth after 70AD...... Most early church fathers were martyred. As per usual, Locutus saying something FALSE:

Goats are not cast out of Jerusalem after surrounded by pagan army, another falsehood. The goats go to HELL, eternal punishment, you know, like it says in Matthew 25:46. It doesnt say there were kicked out of Jerusalem, RIDICILOUS

@Locutus you claim to have "studied" dispensationalism and proven how bad it is, and if this is what you switched dispensationalism to, WOW. You have been DECEIVED. I dont agree with everything dispies say, however they are MUCH closer to the truth than you, that is fo sure.

We often say "eschatology doesn't matter". I would agree with that but the exception is FULL preterism, it guarantees you will run into deception, stop watching since everything has already happened, and makes you susceptible to taking the mark of the beast. (Since you falsely believe its already happened).
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Amo_9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

I'm curious, do you think a literal plowman plowing literal dirt is going to overtake a literal reaper and a literal treader is going to walk on literal grapes and the mountains are going drop sweet wine and the literal hills are going to melt?
 
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