I would add to this that when Christ returned at his resurrection he was accompanied by the Old Testament saints that were raised along with him, would it not be correct to say that Jesus returned with a cloud of witnesses?
Sheep and goats. Separate from, or same as The great white throne judgment?
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Context for clouds is derived from old testament prophetic usage - when Jesus said the council would see him on the clouds of heaven he is speaking of judgment on the apostate nation.
If we look through the old testament judgments by God on a nations we see clouds used:
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
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Failure to take prophetic/apocalyptic language into account is where we end up with mistaken ideas on what the bible is trying to say.
When John in his revelation stated that those that pierced him would "see the clouds" it is because the events that unfold are to do with the judgment of the whore and her city - 1st century Jerusalem:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
If we look through the old testament judgments by God on a nations we see clouds used:
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
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Failure to take prophetic/apocalyptic language into account is where we end up with mistaken ideas on what the bible is trying to say.
When John in his revelation stated that those that pierced him would "see the clouds" it is because the events that unfold are to do with the judgment of the whore and her city - 1st century Jerusalem:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
No i dont.
Again, literal interpretation does NOT mean we dont allow for metaphors or allegories.
I dont think people are sheep or wheat either......... This is obvious. Bible is to be read in a way that we understand language. Its raining cats and dogs means its pouring rain heavily. No doubt.
Take out the trash, bob. Means: take out the trash, bob.
Eze_6:3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places.
Are the literal mountains of Israel going to hear the wo
Are the literal mountains of Israel going to hear the wo
I would agree with that also but clouds are not limited to literal clouds and judgement. Clouds are also used to represent witnesses too.
Then why are you so much against clouds representing a cloud of witness? We have at least two witnesses in the bible that link clouds to witnesses.
Here's what I really don't understand about your stance though. The verse I quoted originally said that the high priest would see Jesus coming in the clouds. That means the high priest has to be alive to see Jesus coming. How do you explain this?
No, it's the "rulers" and or the wealthy described as mountains, the people as hills, rivers and valleys.
Same kind of language used in other places such as Isaiah, which was quoted in relationship to John the B.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
i would agree, context is key
And that's exactly what rightly dividing the word of truth means - is it literal or is it what the literal represents and context is key to determining which is which.
You are assuming that there is a millennium where Christ reigns on earth for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. What if there is no millennium? Then he would be coming back with His holy angels to judge people at the Great White Throne judgment. Let me give a couple examples from Scripture that I believe prove that there is no millennium. Please pay special attention to the bold parts.
The Parable of the Tares
Matthew 13: 40-42, "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire.
This is the Lake of Fire which happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. People are not cast into the "furnace of fire/lake of fire" until after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20. The 1,000 years of Rev 20 is a symbolic number for this current age.
The Parable of the Dragnet
Matthew 13: 47-50, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire."
The angels are casting them into the "lake of fire" at the "end of the age". Jesus is telling us specifically that the age ends when He returns and that is when people are cast into the "furnace of fire". Unsaved people are not cast into the lake of fire until after the 1,000 years is completed as Rev 20 tells us.
This argument is correct and when you look at the parable of the tares and dragnet it makes it more clear.
This is not necessarily talking about the lake of fire, it could be, but it could talking about the burning of the city in AD 70.
I think that is exactly what the parable is referring to - and we have other parables stating who is involved:
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Luke 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
Luke 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
The kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to another nation so it would make sense at that time to remove all things that offend... separate the sheep from the goats.
I understand, believe it or not. Ive been going back and forth on eschatology as can be seen in my posts here.
However, Revelation 20 is just TOO MUCH in the amil view. Satan is clearly not bound, nations ARE being deceived, apostasy is upon us no doubt, saints are NOT reigning, world lies in wickedness, and im not too fancy on spiritualizing the gog and magog war as the apostasy and persecution of the church either.
If Revelation 20 started at 20:11 amill would be perfect fit. But it doesnt.
If all we had was the gospels, everyone would be amil.
What makes the millennium "required" is: Rev 20 itself, in Rev 13 satan is deceiving nations (as we see today) in rev 20 he isnt no more. Spiritualizing first resurrection is unbelievable to say the least as well.
The OT witness to a kingdom for Israel, is undeniable. The sabbath rest for earth has a great picture for the millennium, types and shadows you know. Peter asking Jesus will you at this restore the kingdom to Israel and Jesus responding with only its not for us to know the times, Jesus did NOT say that no such kingdom is coming.
etc. Diffuse Revelation 20 in a reasonable manner and everyone is amil. Thats the key. Rev 20 is clear, 1000
That is exactly what the Bible says. And when the second coming of Christ occurs, there will be CLOUDS OF SAINTS AND ANGELS surrounding Him.
Because they all will be dressed in white, and also radiating light, they will appear as shining clouds from a great distance. And every eye on earth will witness this amazing phenomenon, and the inhabitants of the earth will weep, and wail, and mourn because their JUDGMENT draweth nigh.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they alsowhich pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Jude-1-14/
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)
I've tried to explains those things to you in previous posts. If you don't see it, you don't see it. That makes me sad and means I should have done a better job explaining perhaps.
In the end, you have to go with what you think the Scripture is teaching. That's all we can do.
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
According to Acts 1:11 he left exactly the same way.
What is the purpose of that verse? Is it to tell us that Jesus will ascend upward when he returns - no because he will descend when he returns. The only purpose of that verse is so that we can know beyond the shadow of a doubt that he left with a cloud of witnesses... the resurrected saints. They are the firstruits of the dead along with Christ which is fulfillment of the feast of firstfruits, the lamb and the wave offering.
I think you are eisegeting instead of reading the text for what it says. Equating the "burning of the city" with unbelievers being "cast into the furnace of fire" is ridiculous.
I will say it again. It is ridiculous to say that the "burning of the city" is the same as casting the tares at the end of the age into "the furnace of fire".
They are two different contexts. One is A.D. 70, the other the end of the age.
Now I know Locutus believes A.D. 70 and the end of the age are the same thing but they are not. As I have said many times before, the logical conclusions of full-preterism don't line up with Scripture unless you spiritualize everything away.
So the resurrection, judgement, second coming, new heavens and new earth are all spiritualized. Ridiculous. Almost no Christians have believed this view point for 2,000 years. Christians who have the Holy Spirit to guide them into truth.
Some people fall in love with novel ideas because they are new and exciting. Sounds like my dispensational friends.
You are a great guy. Good attitude
Lets try one more time: How can satan be deceiving the nations now, while in rev20 it says he cant do that when bound?
I will say again it's not, the end of the age came in the 1st century, you have it extending for centuries after Paul stated the end of ages had come on THEM to whom he wrote.
1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
The tares were part of the nation kingdom that was HIS, there are no tares in Christ's Kingdom which we as Christians are part of.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.