Is God that cruel?
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Well...that explains a lot.
The above puts the right perspective on each and everything you will ever say on here.
You have little to zero confidence in Scripture and took a swing at its authority. That's where you begin in the above.
I've witnessed several convinced of the truths of Scripture they once denied. So too have others.
We are no "Jeremiah's" on here, nor are any of us a "William Carey" but it's highly probable most of us aren't going to let others discourage our efforts because they deem them useless or futile.
Who knows, maybe stick around and God through one of us will convince you of your errors and of the divine authority and accuracy of Scripture; 2 Timothy 3:16.
The above puts the right perspective on each and everything you will ever say on here.
You have little to zero confidence in Scripture and took a swing at its authority. That's where you begin in the above.
I've witnessed several convinced of the truths of Scripture they once denied. So too have others.
We are no "Jeremiah's" on here, nor are any of us a "William Carey" but it's highly probable most of us aren't going to let others discourage our efforts because they deem them useless or futile.
Who knows, maybe stick around and God through one of us will convince you of your errors and of the divine authority and accuracy of Scripture; 2 Timothy 3:16.
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I suggest you do some research.........part tongue in cheek? Yes. However, given that some folks are disciples of a man who did just that..........well............
As for creeds.............we have no creed but the Bible. What more than the Gospel of Christ does one need?
And, as I recall, you are the one who doesn't even know the definition of your Screen Name, so why should I give thought to what creed you believe to be the best one?
People are so busy adding to Scripture, trying to find ways to make man's traditions the Doctrine of God, it's no wonder things are so messed up.
Anyway...............if you guys have to have a creed to feel like you are Christians, then go for it. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit assures me of my salvation each and every minute of every day...........no creed required.
As for creeds.............we have no creed but the Bible. What more than the Gospel of Christ does one need?
And, as I recall, you are the one who doesn't even know the definition of your Screen Name, so why should I give thought to what creed you believe to be the best one?
People are so busy adding to Scripture, trying to find ways to make man's traditions the Doctrine of God, it's no wonder things are so messed up.
Anyway...............if you guys have to have a creed to feel like you are Christians, then go for it. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit assures me of my salvation each and every minute of every day...........no creed required.
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Why do people insist there is fire and brimstone suffering for eternity when the Bible speaks of no such thing in the beginning. And the history of such a description has been known for centuries and it is not of God but of RCC men.
Maybe it is because such defenders of such a terrible place are certain first they'll not be there. And secondly, it gives them a deep unspoken satisfaction to think those who defy their beliefs or disagree with their ideas of that damned after life will end up in such a place. And therein give that one that believed in such a place the last word about it.
Maybe it is because such defenders of such a terrible place are certain first they'll not be there. And secondly, it gives them a deep unspoken satisfaction to think those who defy their beliefs or disagree with their ideas of that damned after life will end up in such a place. And therein give that one that believed in such a place the last word about it.
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I have full confidence in scripture. I have little confidence in men’s ability to interpret it. You completely missed my point. If everything in the Bible was obvious, we would all agree about everything, all of the time. However we don’t. We are often diametrically opposes throwing verses at eachother from the same book, proving our points. The problem we face is that nobody thinks for a second here that they might have it wrong. What I believe, I have researched, calculated, prayed and meditated about. Nothing I believe is just because somebody said so. I meticulously bisect, word by word, what the Scriptures actually say. I can tell you for a fact that the common interpretation is not based on accurate translation. Believe what you want.
L
Psalms
Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup
Revelation
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup
Revelation
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
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So you changed your mind about your last post? That's good. Please stop with the interpretation excuse, you cast doubt on Scripture post interpretation. You're trying to play both sides of the fence now.
No, I understood you clearly. Here is what you said:
"No matter how many Bible verses you can clobber with, you are guessing they were copied correctly. translated accurately, understood properly and intended for everyone."
Yep. I understood you clearly.
Who made you believe it should be obvious? Certainly not God or Scripture.
That is an exaggerated assumption. What I find is that persons take comfort in saying that, it releases them from any duty owed to God via Scripture because they state it wasn't translated correctly anyhow.
Partially true yet contextual exegesis cures this, and most don't do this. Most interpret out of context which changes the meaning of the text that was intended.
I believe in the plenary inspiration of the Scriptures and that they are accurate; 2 Timothy 3:16 like. That's what I believe.
No, I understood you clearly. Here is what you said:
"No matter how many Bible verses you can clobber with, you are guessing they were copied correctly. translated accurately, understood properly and intended for everyone."
Yep. I understood you clearly.
Who made you believe it should be obvious? Certainly not God or Scripture.
That is an exaggerated assumption. What I find is that persons take comfort in saying that, it releases them from any duty owed to God via Scripture because they state it wasn't translated correctly anyhow.
Partially true yet contextual exegesis cures this, and most don't do this. Most interpret out of context which changes the meaning of the text that was intended.
I believe in the plenary inspiration of the Scriptures and that they are accurate; 2 Timothy 3:16 like. That's what I believe.
Your lack of ability to discern my simple statements, causes me to question whether you can accurately understand scripture. Finishing it with 2 Timothy 3:16 just confirms it. Your opinion of me seriously distorts in your mind what I’m saying. That is exactly my point. Everybody does this. They think they are right based on preconceptions. You think I’m wrong because you think you’re right. No matter what I say, your brain will always put a negative slant on it.
The texts have not a hint of the concept of our living God torturing those who don't believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, even though His Son died or the sins on the ungodly, past, present, and future, including the sin of disbelief.
Only the translations contain the idea of the much-loved Christian hell, where people less pious than the hell-lovers will suffer.
As I understand it, when the AV was published, the word, "Hell" or "hel" meant "a covered place" and was therefore used for the grave. However, the continued use of it is total heresy, considering the Pagan use of it today, especially when used in conjunction with gehenna, the trash pit outside of Jerusalem, which will be constantly burning and will burn the carcasses of those executed during the millennium (Isa 66:24). What the fire doesn't burn, the maggots will eat.
What the Bible says
When the believer dies, the Spirit he received at his salvation will return to God who gave it. When the unbeliever dies, he has no spirit to be returned to God. Both the believer and unbeliever are dead and both go to hades, the grave. Although the believer is dead, he or she is said to be asleep, since that what it will seem like to the believer, when he or she is resurrected. The unbeliever will simply rot away and cease to exist, NEVER to be heard from again.
There is ZERO consciousness in the grave. There is no second chance for the unbeliever. No unbeliever will be resurrected, stand in the judgment Ps 1:5, and then die again, because man is appointed only once to die, Heb 9:27. No one HAS a soul, which is a pagan belief. Man is a soul, (Gen 2:7), composed of the breath of life and the dust of the earth. When either of these is taken away or no longer functions, the person, whether believer or unbeliever, is totally dead, The difference is that the unbeliever is permanently dead and the believer isn't, since he will be resurrected.
No one, except Christ, has yet escaped the grave. including David, Ac 2:29, 34. No one, except Christ, has ever ascended to the Heaven of Heavens, God's abode, Jn 3:13. The belief that a person immediately goes to Heaven when they die, is 1000% false. This idiocy is based on 2 very iffy passages (Lk 23:43, where the comma should be after Today and not before) and and a total misinterpretation of 2Cor 5:8. John 3:13 proves without a doubt, that that is a lie.
Only the translations contain the idea of the much-loved Christian hell, where people less pious than the hell-lovers will suffer.
As I understand it, when the AV was published, the word, "Hell" or "hel" meant "a covered place" and was therefore used for the grave. However, the continued use of it is total heresy, considering the Pagan use of it today, especially when used in conjunction with gehenna, the trash pit outside of Jerusalem, which will be constantly burning and will burn the carcasses of those executed during the millennium (Isa 66:24). What the fire doesn't burn, the maggots will eat.
What the Bible says
When the believer dies, the Spirit he received at his salvation will return to God who gave it. When the unbeliever dies, he has no spirit to be returned to God. Both the believer and unbeliever are dead and both go to hades, the grave. Although the believer is dead, he or she is said to be asleep, since that what it will seem like to the believer, when he or she is resurrected. The unbeliever will simply rot away and cease to exist, NEVER to be heard from again.
There is ZERO consciousness in the grave. There is no second chance for the unbeliever. No unbeliever will be resurrected, stand in the judgment Ps 1:5, and then die again, because man is appointed only once to die, Heb 9:27. No one HAS a soul, which is a pagan belief. Man is a soul, (Gen 2:7), composed of the breath of life and the dust of the earth. When either of these is taken away or no longer functions, the person, whether believer or unbeliever, is totally dead, The difference is that the unbeliever is permanently dead and the believer isn't, since he will be resurrected.
No one, except Christ, has yet escaped the grave. including David, Ac 2:29, 34. No one, except Christ, has ever ascended to the Heaven of Heavens, God's abode, Jn 3:13. The belief that a person immediately goes to Heaven when they die, is 1000% false. This idiocy is based on 2 very iffy passages (Lk 23:43, where the comma should be after Today and not before) and and a total misinterpretation of 2Cor 5:8. John 3:13 proves without a doubt, that that is a lie.
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You are spot on most of this, but you fail to see the second resurrection before The Great White Throne Judgment as expressed here:
Rev. 20:5, 6 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."
Rev. 20:11-15 "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
This all suggests the will be a second resurrection for "the rest of the dead."
Any good parent would try to correct their son, just as God has patiently tried to do with His children for thousands of years. A parent might also try to cover for their son's wrongdoing by paying for what he did wrong, just as Christ paid for our shortcomings. But where there is no remorse, and correction is rebuffed, what's a parent/God to do? There comes a point when even the best parent needs to stop a terrible rebellious child from being evil and hurting others.
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Interesting you sought out the scripture book but deleted the chapter and verse.
The song of David, Psalms 11 is not speaking of Hell.
This is why context is important. Revelation 14, again, is not referring to Hell.
This last verse is the perfect proof of the excerpt of full text concerning the history of Hell's arrival in later Bible versions. This verse in chapter 21 and verse 8 is derived from the King James Version.
This is why those of us who hold deep respect and love for the words of God study as we do. Learning the history of the versions of the Bible and how they over periods of centuries were in new editions alterations of the prior text is imperative to arriving at a right understanding.
Which is also in part why the words of God tells us to test the spirits. Yes, even as God foresaw those who would bring to the public different versions of his eternal word.
((EXCERPT))".....
In the Old Testament, good and evil men both went to "Sheol" at death. One Sheol, one place of death for all men.
In the New Testament, three words were translated into "hell" by the King James translators: Hades (unseen), Gehenna (Jerusalem's city dump), and Tartarus (Greek mythology's prison for the Titans). None of these words is the "lake of fire" in Revelation. Most Bibles since the KJV have abandoned the poor translating of all these words into "hell." The many different ways each translation handles these words is beyond the scope of this booklet. It would require a full size book to document it all. We will just say, almost all Bibles have abandoned the KJV's handling of these words. Search it out for yourself. It will be a most enlightening study.
The concept of evil men going to a place of torment after death first appeared in Jewish apocryphal writings of 3 to 1 B.C. These writings came from the thoughts of the Babylonian religions which the Jews brought back with them from Babylon. It was these books which spoke of eternal separation of good and evil and equating it to man's ultimate fate. Many Jews mixed these teachings with Judaism which brought about great problems. These writings, found their way into the Greek Septuagint. The Septuagint was used by the early Church. From there these writings got into the Latin Vulgate. Early English translations relied heavily on the Latin Vulgate. Those that used the Greek, also relied heavily upon the Septuagint. The early English translations were either translated from the Latin with the Apocrypha, or the Septuagint, which also contained the Apocrypha. Each translation also relied heavily on other translations. Tyndale, for example, borrowed greatly from Martin Luther. The King James directly copied much from previous translations that came directly from the Latin Vulgate. Many of the early Common Language Bibles contained the Apocryphal writings. These writings had a great effect on their view of things and on how to translate other portions of the Bible. Jewish Bibles of today do not contain them. They do not belong in the Scriptures! But the Roman Catholic Bibles, Orthodox Bibles, and the original King James Bible as well as many early Common language Bibles contained them. As the Roman Catholic church and Protestant denominations begin to hold hands again, Protestant translations are beginning to add the Apocryphal Writings to the Bible again. This is not wise. "
You just did. And you hope to cause a seeker of God's word to feel shame for their pursuit due to your callous contradictory judgment.
Shame on you.
The song of David, Psalms 11 is not speaking of Hell.
This is why context is important. Revelation 14, again, is not referring to Hell.
This last verse is the perfect proof of the excerpt of full text concerning the history of Hell's arrival in later Bible versions. This verse in chapter 21 and verse 8 is derived from the King James Version.
This is why those of us who hold deep respect and love for the words of God study as we do. Learning the history of the versions of the Bible and how they over periods of centuries were in new editions alterations of the prior text is imperative to arriving at a right understanding.
Which is also in part why the words of God tells us to test the spirits. Yes, even as God foresaw those who would bring to the public different versions of his eternal word.
((EXCERPT))".....
In the Old Testament, good and evil men both went to "Sheol" at death. One Sheol, one place of death for all men.
In the New Testament, three words were translated into "hell" by the King James translators: Hades (unseen), Gehenna (Jerusalem's city dump), and Tartarus (Greek mythology's prison for the Titans). None of these words is the "lake of fire" in Revelation. Most Bibles since the KJV have abandoned the poor translating of all these words into "hell." The many different ways each translation handles these words is beyond the scope of this booklet. It would require a full size book to document it all. We will just say, almost all Bibles have abandoned the KJV's handling of these words. Search it out for yourself. It will be a most enlightening study.
The concept of evil men going to a place of torment after death first appeared in Jewish apocryphal writings of 3 to 1 B.C. These writings came from the thoughts of the Babylonian religions which the Jews brought back with them from Babylon. It was these books which spoke of eternal separation of good and evil and equating it to man's ultimate fate. Many Jews mixed these teachings with Judaism which brought about great problems. These writings, found their way into the Greek Septuagint. The Septuagint was used by the early Church. From there these writings got into the Latin Vulgate. Early English translations relied heavily on the Latin Vulgate. Those that used the Greek, also relied heavily upon the Septuagint. The early English translations were either translated from the Latin with the Apocrypha, or the Septuagint, which also contained the Apocrypha. Each translation also relied heavily on other translations. Tyndale, for example, borrowed greatly from Martin Luther. The King James directly copied much from previous translations that came directly from the Latin Vulgate. Many of the early Common Language Bibles contained the Apocryphal writings. These writings had a great effect on their view of things and on how to translate other portions of the Bible. Jewish Bibles of today do not contain them. They do not belong in the Scriptures! But the Roman Catholic Bibles, Orthodox Bibles, and the original King James Bible as well as many early Common language Bibles contained them. As the Roman Catholic church and Protestant denominations begin to hold hands again, Protestant translations are beginning to add the Apocryphal Writings to the Bible again. This is not wise. "
You just did. And you hope to cause a seeker of God's word to feel shame for their pursuit due to your callous contradictory judgment.
Shame on you.
oh yes, preach the word, let's be prepared, which we know that only God can prepare us, and we can not do a single drop of preparing, and because of the inability of the flesh to prepare
and,
we should not show contempt for the riches of God's KINDNESS because, Romans 2:4 says "God's kindness leads towards repentance"
and,
we should not show contempt for the riches of God's KINDNESS because, Romans 2:4 says "God's kindness leads towards repentance"
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