Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?

[Adstar]

Yes, I am fully aware that Jesus preached to the spirits in Hades. (the realm of the dead)

That means that their decision to receive Christ was made after death.
And it seems that Enoch did not go to Hades, but directly to heaven. Same with Elijah. Or was that Elisha?

So, from your perspective, how many "ways" is that?

WHY Can't you understand????

There is still ONLY ONE WAY... By accepting the WAY of salvation of the LORD Jesus Christ.. Enoch Elijah Abraham Elisha Adam Eve and Eve ALL had to accept the Way of salvation through the LORD Jesus Christ to have eternal life with God in His perfect eternal existence.. It does not matter what side of the grave the Gospel was put to them.. Every one of us must make our personal response to the Way of salvation in the affirmative to be saved.. No one gets to have eternal life without accepting the Way of salvation via the LORD Jesus Christ..

Do you believe that a person needs to receive Christ before they die to secure their salvation? (the only way)

I never said that (the only way)
Go back and read my posts.. I never said that one must accept the Way before they die... I said One Must accept the Way of salvation by believing the LORD Jesus Christ and accepting the Atonement He secured for the forgiveness of their sins for one to have salvation.. And that it is the ONLY WAY..

I have been consistent in standing by that doctrine right through this discussion.. But again and again you want to inject other ways to salvation...

 

[Sketch]

Yes i was repeatedly praying for wisdom and understanding from God when i first read the Bible.. I was way out of my depth.. It is very hard to understand the style of the Bible especially the older KJV translation.. I could never have the knowledge i have now without the Holy Spirit causing me to understand things.

It's probably not too difficult to find two people who claim that God gave them their understanding of the Bible, even though their doctrines are diametrically opposed. How would you account for that?

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that God directs us in these things. But I'm not going to tell someone else that they are wrong because God gave me the inside scope.

 

[Sketch]

I never said that (the only way)
Go back and read my posts.. I never said that one must accept the Way before they die... I said One Must accept the Way of salvation by believing the LORD Jesus Christ and accepting the Atonement He secured for the forgiveness of their sins for one to have salvation.. And that it is the ONLY WAY..

I have been consistent in standing by that doctrine right through this discussion.. But again and again you want to inject other ways to salvation...

Make up your mind.
Either Jesus is the only way or there are other ways.
You are saying you don't claim Jesus to be the only way. ("I never said that" - the only way)
Then you claim I "want to inject other ways to salvation..." (not what I am saying)
I have maintained that Jesus is the only way. Something you claim you never said. ???
Make up your mind.

 

[Adstar]

"I love it when people credit God for their faulty doctrine. " - Sketch

That was sarcasm. Get a sense of humor.
What sort of judgment is it to say such a thing about my spirit?
As if not agreeing with you means I am what... possessed by a demon?
Get over yourself.

Shouldn't you be more concerned with your doctrine than with pointing fingers?

So you Dare use sarcasm and mockery in a discussion with a fellow Christian in a Vital discussion about the WAY of Salvation????

HOW DARE YOU... Then to come back and tell me to get a sense of humor ????

Proverbs 26 :
18 Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, 19 Is the man who deceives his neighbor, And says, “I was only joking!”

This is where discussion between you and me ends... I will put you in the hands of the LORD, He shall deal with you..

PS: You're on ignore..

 

[Sketch]

I never said that (the only way)
Go back and read my posts.. I never said that one must accept the Way before they die... I said One Must accept the Way of salvation by believing the LORD Jesus Christ and accepting the Atonement He secured for the forgiveness of their sins for one to have salvation.. And that it is the ONLY WAY..

This really says it all right here. See quote above.
It was in response to this question of mine. See below.
"Do you believe that a person needs to receive Christ before they die to secure their salvation? (the only way)" - Sketch

 

[Lillywolf]

Yes i was repeatedly praying for wisdom and understanding from God when i first read the Bible.. I was way out of my depth.. It is very hard to understand the style of the Bible especially the older KJV translation.. I could never have the knowledge i have now without the Holy Spirit causing me to understand things.






Yes God foreknew before the foundation of the world ( before creation ) who would be saved and who would not.. So no disagreement here on that point.. Actually i am not sure why you are even bringing this point up?? Except to say that this does away with the false doctrine of universalism.. If God foreknows who will be saved and who will be damned among us then obviously some are not going to be saved.. Therefore universalism is a false doctrine..

Syllogisms aside, the scriptures allow for defense of Universalism, as we see, and for a so called directed verdict, salvation or damnation eternally.
That you agree God foreknew before he created the earth, that would include the garden, the tree of knowledge, and the Adam and Eve, that he knew who would be saved and who would not, which would mean he had an awareness before the Adam ate of the apple, then that means he had no intention of their living in paradise eternally nor having any chance of eating of the tree of life so as to live eternally.
Now, the salvation paradigm he later set forth insures we live eternally.
There is no thing Omniscience cannot know. There is no thing omnipresence cannot see. There is no thing omnipotence cannot control.
God himself tells us he predestined all things. And he is all things.
Why would we who believe in God and His Word argue what he tells us himself?

 

[Nehemiah6]

To say he is just an ancestor is to completley miss The point.

Looks like you missed the point in trying to split hairs and strain at gnats. The term *father* is used for ancestors, so you might as well accept that as FACT.

King James Bible
Whose are the fathers*, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.
Contemporary English Version
They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of the Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.
Good News Translation
they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Note: I am quoting the modern versions to show that the meaning of Abraham as father means ancestor. By the same token, these modern versions (other than Holman) are misrepresenting the deity of Christ in this verse. In general all modern versions are corrupt.

*Strong's Concordance
patér: a father
Original Word: πατήρ, πατρός, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: patér
Phonetic Spelling: (pat-ayr')
Definition: a father
Usage: father, (Heavenly) Father, ancestor, elder, senior.

 

[BibleloverBill]

The fire does the tormenting as far as i know... Have you ever suffered from a burn to your skin?? It is not nice.. Imagine your whole body being in fire but never being consumed..

The Scripture doesn't say that. Who would be doing the tormenting? Don't say Satan and the demons (fallen angels); why should they be rewarded. And don't say God for many reasons. Then who? No true Christian would want to do such tormenting.

And if there are rooms in the Lake of Fire, what would be the differences be in the room for Hitler and the room for Pastor John Smith who strayed from teaching the Gospel.

 

[BibleloverBill]

Syllogisms aside, the scriptures allow for defense of Universalism, as we see, and for a so called directed verdict, salvation or damnation eternally.
That you agree God foreknew before he created the earth, that would include the garden, the tree of knowledge, and the Adam and Eve, that he knew who would be saved and who would not, which would mean he had an awareness before the Adam ate of the apple, then that means he had no intention of their living in paradise eternally nor having any chance of eating of the tree of life so as to live eternally.
Now, the salvation paradigm he later set forth insures we live eternally.
There is no thing Omniscience cannot know. There is no thing omnipresence cannot see. There is no thing omnipotence cannot control.
God himself tells us he predestined all things. And he is all things.
Why would we who believe in God and His Word argue what he tells us himself?

***Such doesn't prove that all human beings will be saved, many becoming spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire. Universalists use that verse that God desires all to be saved. I don't think that the original Greek verse means that, because of what you mentioned about predestination by God.

 

[Adstar]

That you agree God foreknew before he created the earth, that would include the garden, the tree of knowledge, and the Adam and Eve, that he knew who would be saved and who would not, which would mean he had an awareness before the Adam ate of the apple, then that means he had no intention of their living in paradise eternally nor having any chance of eating of the tree of life so as to live eternally.

Yes He knew all that was going to happen.. But He never forced them to choose what they chose.. They had free will to trust God or to trust satan.. No one can impute unrighteousness on God.. God also foreknew how He was going to Redeem the situation.. To justly bring about His eternal plan..

Now, the salvation paradigm he later set forth insures we live eternally.

Only those who embrace the truth and trust in Gods Way of salvation..

There is no thing Omniscience cannot know. There is no thing omnipresence cannot see. There is no thing omnipotence cannot control.

If God wants Free willed beings He cannot control them like automation like zombies.. So while God can control humans He will not do so because that defeats the purpose of creating free willed beings..

God himself tells us he predestined all things. And he is all things.

He said He predestined those who accept His will to be conformed to the glory of Jesus.. Again he did not force anyone to accept his will or reject His will He foreknew who would accept His will and who would reject His Way of salvation.. People do those things by their own will..

Romans 8: KJV
29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Foreknowledge comes before Predestination..

Why would we who believe in God and His Word argue what he tells us himself?

Because we hear many interpretations / conclusions about what He is telling us and many of those conclusions are based on the limited understanding of faulty human beings not on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,,

 

[Adstar]

The Scripture doesn't say that. Who would be doing the tormenting? Don't say Satan and the demons (fallen angels); why should they be rewarded. And don't say God for many reasons. Then who? No true Christian would want to do such tormenting.

And if there are rooms in the Lake of Fire, what would be the differences be in the room for Hitler and the room for Pastor John Smith who strayed from teaching the Gospel.

The lake of fire is filled with fire and the fire will be the cause of their torment....

No satan and his angels will be in the lake of fire in torment forever and ever just like the rest who are cast into the eternal lake of fire..

I never said there where rooms in the Lake of fire.. The Lake of fire is a Lake so no rooms there as far as i know.. Sounds to me like you have got some ideas from the traditons of men in regard to the eternal lake of fire.. Maybe from Dante's inferno?? A work of fiction..

So if Hitler and pastor John Smith end up being cast into the eternal lake of fire they will both be suffering the same torment..

 

[Lillywolf]

Yes He knew all that was going to happen.. But He never forced them to choose what they chose.. They had free will to trust God or to trust satan.. No one can impute unrighteousness on God.. God also foreknew how He was going to Redeem the situation.. To justly bring about His eternal plan..



Only those who embrace the truth and trust in Gods Way of salvation..



If God wants Free willed beings He cannot control them like automation like zombies.. So while God can control humans He will not do so because that defeats the purpose of creating free willed beings..



He said He predestined those who accept His will to be conformed to the glory of Jesus.. Again he did not force anyone to accept his will or reject His will He foreknew who would accept His will and who would reject His Way of salvation.. People do those things by their own will..

Romans 8: KJV
29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Foreknowledge comes before Predestination..



Because we hear many interpretations / conclusions about what He is telling us and many of those conclusions are based on the limited understanding of faulty human beings not on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,,

At this point I think with all the scriptures that refer to God's predeterminism , predestination, foreknowledge, of all things of him and in him, of course including humans, that the best thing to add is the definition of free will. That particulars of which applied to the aforementioned predeterminant factors God has established in the world, as his word tells us, should get the point across in a new way.
Free Will (Noun)

1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

 

[Lillywolf]

***Such doesn't prove that all human beings will be saved, many becoming spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire. Universalists use that verse that God desires all to be saved. I don't think that the original Greek verse means that, because of what you mentioned about predestination by God.

I wouldn't agree cleansing in the lake of fire would rightly be included in Universalist teachings. That sounds more like the RCC's Purgatory.

 

[BibleloverBill]

The lake of fire is filled with fire and the fire will be the cause of their torment....

No satan and his angels will be in the lake of fire in torment forever and ever just like the rest who are cast into the eternal lake of fire..

I never said there where rooms in the Lake of fire.. The Lake of fire is a Lake so no rooms there as far as i know.. Sounds to me like you have got some ideas from the traditons of men in regard to the eternal lake of fire.. Maybe from Dante's inferno?? A work of fiction..

So if Hitler and pastor John Smith end up being cast into the eternal lake of fire they will both be suffering the same torment..

But you have no Biblical proof for your beliefs that you stated.

 

[BibleloverBill]

I wouldn't agree cleansing in the lake of fire would rightly be included in Universalist teachings. That sounds more like the RCC's Purgatory.

you are wrong. I knew a high up leader of the Universalist Religion. He died recently. And he sent me a lot of writings by Universalist Theologians. And I know the doctrine of RCC Purgatory. That was for giving hope to relatives that they could pay to get those who were not believers to Heaven instead of to Hell. It had nothing to do with the Lake of Fire.

 

[Lillywolf]

you are wrong. I knew a high up leader of the Universalist Religion. He died recently. And he sent me a lot of writings by Universalist Theologians. And I know the doctrine of RCC Purgatory. That was for giving hope to relatives that they could pay to get those who were not believers to Heaven instead of to Hell. It had nothing to do with the Lake of Fire.

I think we're misunderstanding one another here. You responded to my post, which I've copied and pasted here. My post and then your response are both showing in #489.
Lillywolf said:
Syllogisms aside, the scriptures allow for defense of Universalism, as we see, and for a so called directed verdict, salvation or damnation eternally.
That you agree God foreknew before he created the earth, that would include the garden, the tree of knowledge, and the Adam and Eve, that he knew who would be saved and who would not, which would mean he had an awareness before the Adam ate of the apple, then that means he had no intention of their living in paradise eternally nor having any chance of eating of the tree of life so as to live eternally.
Now, the salvation paradigm he later set forth insures we live eternally.
There is no thing Omniscience cannot know. There is no thing omnipresence cannot see. There is no thing omnipotence cannot control.
God himself tells us he predestined all things. And he is all things.
Why would we who believe in God and His Word argue what he tells us himself?

You Answered***Such doesn't prove that all human beings will be saved, many becoming spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire. Universalists use that verse that God desires all to be saved. I don't think that the original Greek verse means that, because of what you mentioned about predestination by God.

I quoted you then and responded in #493:I wouldn't agree cleansing in the lake of fire would rightly be included in Universalist teachings. That sounds more like the RCC's Purgatory.

Your remarks , ***Such doesn't prove that all human beings will be saved, many becoming spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire, are your own thoughts. I didn't say anything remotely linked to "spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire..."
However, I did comment that your remark is more reminiscent of the RCC's Purgatory. Which is what Purgatory is about. I.E. spiritual cleansing in fire and not so that unbelievers can enter Heaven. In RCC tradition Purgatory does not pertain to the unbeliever. The atheist who dies in their sins. Catholic Answers: PURGATORY

What Christians Want To Know: What is Purgatory
"Purgatory means “a cleansing place.” Purgatory is the place where “small sins” that have been committed since the last time the person participated in the sacrament of reconciliation are purged as a person spend times there between earth and heaven when they die. "

 

[BibleloverBill]

I think we're misunderstanding one another here. You responded to my post, which I've copied and pasted here. My post and then your response are both showing in #489.
Lillywolf said:
Syllogisms aside, the scriptures allow for defense of Universalism, as we see, and for a so called directed verdict, salvation or damnation eternally.
That you agree God foreknew before he created the earth, that would include the garden, the tree of knowledge, and the Adam and Eve, that he knew who would be saved and who would not, which would mean he had an awareness before the Adam ate of the apple, then that means he had no intention of their living in paradise eternally nor having any chance of eating of the tree of life so as to live eternally.
Now, the salvation paradigm he later set forth insures we live eternally.
There is no thing Omniscience cannot know. There is no thing omnipresence cannot see. There is no thing omnipotence cannot control.
God himself tells us he predestined all things. And he is all things.
Why would we who believe in God and His Word argue what he tells us himself?

You Answered***Such doesn't prove that all human beings will be saved, many becoming spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire. Universalists use that verse that God desires all to be saved. I don't think that the original Greek verse means that, because of what you mentioned about predestination by God.

I quoted you then and responded in #493:I wouldn't agree cleansing in the lake of fire would rightly be included in Universalist teachings. That sounds more like the RCC's Purgatory.

Your remarks , ***Such doesn't prove that all human beings will be saved, many becoming spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire, are your own thoughts. I didn't say anything remotely linked to "spiritually cleansed by the Lake of Fire..."
However, I did comment that your remark is more reminiscent of the RCC's Purgatory. Which is what Purgatory is about. I.E. spiritual cleansing in fire and not so that unbelievers can enter Heaven. In RCC tradition Purgatory does not pertain to the unbeliever. The atheist who dies in their sins. Catholic Answers: PURGATORY

What Christians Want To Know: What is Purgatory
"Purgatory means “a cleansing place.” Purgatory is the place where “small sins” that have been committed since the last time the person participated in the sacrament of reconciliation are purged as a person spend times there between earth and heaven when they die. "

2 Timothy 3:5 to you.

 

[Lillywolf]

2 Timothy 3:5 to you.

That's entirely uncalled for as it appears you have misunderstood me yet again.

 

[oldethennew]

don't ever 'dumb-down', this is the 'bottom of the barrel', so to speak!!!

one has to wonder, why??? would some go to such lengths???

the 'Formula' is quite narrow, to say the least, and so the
motives become apparent to some, and to some others
they will eventually 'un-veil' their hidden 'beliefs!...

 

[BibleloverBill]

God hates spiritual arrogance. Like indicated in Matthew 23.