The Abomination of Desolation

[GraceAndTruth]

Hi thanks for the reply and opportunity to share my view. I am not claiming to be a teacher but again sharing the way I hear or believe what the word of God informs us or as some say offering some home made bread.

I believe I understand your point which it seems is comparing the temporal thing seen, "a army of Rome", to the "kingdoms seen of this world" and calling that a Holy Place. which is a shadow of the eternal. I believe you could be turning the things upside down as did some of the Jews before they were instructed by the prophets in various ways given the correct order" right side up."

The things seen are a shadow of the Holy Place as the thing not seen not..... the Holy Place itself.. In the end (Isaiah 29:16) it instructions seems to work or brings back the understanding that comes from hearing God not seen and not hearing men, seen.

A proper understanding between the things of God not seen and those of men must be divided or a person could end up like Peter in Mathew 16: 22-23 .Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy when he forbid the lord from doing what he came to do. But it clearly show how not dividing the differences offend Him because it does take away His understanding

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing "framed" say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

It would if you are using the things seen, the temporal as if they were the things not seen, the eternal according to the prescription in 2 Corinthians 4:18.

The Holy place would point to the invisible presence of God, or the Bosum of Abraham . The future glory that will be revealed in the new heavens and earth.

The Holy Place is not assigned to the temporal or what the eyes see .His kingdom does not come by observation .

In that way I believe Jesus says; "its an evil generation". The thinking of natural man who says there is no God in their hearts. But even Christians who cannot call other fools do foolish things as God does work in them to form Christ in their hearts. Like the Galatians in chapter 3 .

Note.... (purple in parenthesis) my personal added understanding to try and make a poinrt

Galatians 3: 1-5 King James Version (KJV) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?(as the temporal things seen) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (the unseen eternal)

They were reprimanded for not following the right order .Saying if it was not the work of God that worked in them to receive the Holy Spirit or good news. Why would a person look to the temporal to get the proper unseen understanding?

I disagree, while the bible is a spiritual book for spiritual people it uses the lilteral , symbolism and parables (stories) to impart to His people the things they should know. The eye that sees knows the difference. I am not even sure where you are going with your premise.....if you could phrase it in a FEW words without the apologetic i might understand your view. The MAIN point.

The bible uses the phrase holy city, holy temple,
Matthew 4:5 (RSV) Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, (cf. Neh 11:1, 18; Is 48:2)
Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Isaiah 56:7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
Psalm 5:7 But I through the abundance of thy steadfast love will enter thy house, I will worship toward thy holy temple...
Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a people holy to the LORD
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

 

[KJV1611]

The number 666 appears in Chronicles.Its the number of gold bars merchants give to Solomon. Solomon
was famous for his wisdom but he ended up filling the Temple with Idols worshiped by his many wives and concubines. Here is WISDOM! Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the Beast for it is the number of a man. His number is 666. I think Solomon is one of a number of types portrayed in the Bible of the ultimate Antichrist.

It could be, but to me there is no "The Antichrist" in scripture but I could be wrong.

 

[Locutus]

It could be, but to me there is no "The Antichrist" in scripture but I could be wrong.

What has happened in my opinion is the conflation of John's mention of antichrist(s) and Paul's man of sin into a future yet to revealed "THE antichrist" which mixes and mismatches statements in the bible into a mud pile of myth that makes no sense and needs a confusing convoluted and copious amount of explanation to hide the fact the antichrist has no clothes, bones or skin.

 

[tanakh]

What has happened in my opinion is the conflation of John's mention of antichrist(s) and Paul's man of sin into a future yet to revealed "THE antichrist" which mixes and mismatches statements in the bible into a mud pile of myth that makes no sense and needs a confusing convoluted and copious amount of explanation to hide the fact the antichrist has no clothes, bones or skin.

Whether this person is called the Antichrist or not according to Paul he is a real person who opposes God
in the last days. He is called the little horn in Daniel and revelation.

Confusing convoluted and copious amounts of explanation are an integral part of the dispensation
system but as far as I can see this person does have clothes bones and skin otherwise Paul wouldn't have mentioned him.

 

[KJV1611]

Whether this person is called the Antichrist or not according to Paul he is a real person who opposes God
in the last days. He is called the little horn in Daniel and revelation.

Confusing convoluted and copious amounts of explanation are an integral part of the dispensation
system but as far as I can see this person does have clothes bones and skin otherwise Paul wouldn't have mentioned him.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In my opinion "sitteth in the temple of God" rules out the possibility of it being "The Antichrist" because we are the temple of God and either we are on that throne or God is, a physical man can't sit there.

I agree with Locutus, people are mixing and mismatching statements in the bible into a mud pile of myth.

 

[Locutus]

Whether this person is called the Antichrist or not according to Paul he is a real person who opposes God in the last days. He is called the little horn in Daniel and revelation.

Confusing convoluted and copious amounts of explanation are an integral part of the dispensation
system but as far as I can see this person does have clothes bones and skin otherwise Paul wouldn't have mentioned him.

You just did it yourself - the "man of sin" whoever he was was being restrained when Paul wrote - THE antichrist of dispensationalism has no clothes etc.

2 Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

So if the "man of sin" was being restrained when Paul wrote that means he was alive back then - are you expecting him to be resurrected to carry on his lawlessness?

The language is pretty clear to me.

 

[KJV1611]

You just did it yourself - the "man of sin" whoever he was was being restrained when Paul wrote - THE antichrist of dispensationalism has no clothes etc.

2 Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

So if the "man of sin" was being restrained when Paul wrote that means he was alive back then - are you expecting him to be resurrected to carry on his lawlessness?

The language is pretty clear to me.

You're coming up with some good stuff bro! That's going in my notes.

 

[tanakh]

You just did it yourself - the "man of sin" whoever he was was being restrained when Paul wrote - THE antichrist of dispensationalism has no clothes etc.

2 Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

So if the "man of sin" was being restrained when Paul wrote that means he was alive back then - are you expecting him to be resurrected to carry on his lawlessness?

The language is pretty clear to me.

Paul goes on to say that the Lord will consume him with the breath of his mouth and the brightness of his coming. So who is this unfortunate fellow and when did the Lord come and consume him? Please refer
to 2 Thess 2: 10-12

I go along with you up to a point but I am not a Preterist. I lean more towards the New Covenant view
of Scripture

 

[KJV1611]

Paul goes on to say that the Lord will consume him with the breath of his mouth and the brightness of his coming. So who is this unfortunate fellow and when did the Lord come and consume him? Please refer
to 2 Thess 2: 10-12

I go along with you up to a point but I am not a Preterist. I lean more towards the New Covenant view
of Scripture

I know you didn't ask me but I want to give my input. The breath of his mouth is the word of God and the him is not a specific person but it's representative of all those that are like "him".

Example Some people are rude and obnoxious, I don't want to be that person. "That person" does not point to one particular person, it points to people that are rude and obnoxious.

 

[tanakh]

I know you didn't ask me but I want to give my input. The breath of his mouth is the word of God and the him is not a specific person but it's representative of all those that are like "him".

Example Some people are rude and obnoxious, I don't want to be that person. "That person" does not point to one particular person, it points to people that are rude and obnoxious.

I think Paul was thinking about a person who was more than just rude and obnoxious or anything approaching it. Its interesting that he calls that person ''The Son of perdition'' (destruction), the only other person in the whole Bible called this is Judas Iscariot who we are told was possessed by Satan

 

[garee]

I disagree, while the bible is a spiritual book for spiritual people it uses the lilteral , symbolism and parables (stories) to impart to His people the things they should know. The eye that sees knows the difference. I am not even sure where you are going with your premise.....if you could phrase it in a FEW words without the apologetic i might understand your view. The MAIN point.

The bible uses the phrase holy city, holy temple,
Matthew 4:5 (RSV) Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple, (cf. Neh 11:1, 18; Is 48:2)
Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Isaiah 56:7 these I will bring to my holy mountain,
Psalm 5:7 But I through the abundance of thy steadfast love will enter thy house, I will worship toward thy holy temple...
Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a people holy to the LORD
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

The bible uses the word holy as something set apart for a certain purpose .

Parables throughout the scriptures are set aside as holy using the temporal things of this world seen as a shadow of the "true holy place" unseen as the kingdom of God .

The kingdom of God does not come be looking at the temporal shadows as rudiments of this world . The places called holy on earth are representations of the eternal not seen ….again the "true holy" place reserved for God alone. And again not reserved for the things seen the temporal they will all disappear having fulfilled there temporal purpose to point to the true holy place . Faith

.2 Corinthians 4:18 is the key to finding the true unseen Holy Place it reveals how we can see the things not seen as His Spirit enlightens our new hearts making it possible to please Him

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal..2 Corinthians 4:18

The earthly Jerusalem is shadow of the true New Jerusalem or Zion she is seen coming down from heaven on the last day prepared as His eternal Holy bride not seen.

Even the Holy people are not what they will be. No longer male not female Jew not gentile. No longer flesh and blood or do we know Christ after any rudiment of this world

The Jews that where set aside in a parables and ceremonial laws to point to the true Holy place not seen are no longer used in parables and of the true Holy place not seen .The reformation came and restored the government to a place where there is no longer we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:an outward representation . Before there were kings in Israel .

 

[louis]

You just did it yourself - the "man of sin" whoever he was was being restrained when Paul wrote - THE antichrist of dispensationalism has no clothes etc.

2 Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

So if the "man of sin" was being restrained when Paul wrote that means he was alive back then - are you expecting him to be resurrected to carry on his lawlessness?

The language is pretty clear to me.

Could what was restraining the man of lawlessness appearing in the first century be that there was no power and technology, which are the power, the signs, and lying wonders through which all the worlds nations he will fool into loving him and the beasts system?
The love for material goods is idolatry, which through technology is increasing mans love for the numerous new toys coming on the market daily.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[garee]

The number 666 appears in Chronicles.Its the number of gold bars merchants give to Solomon. Solomon
was famous for his wisdom but he ended up filling the Temple with Idols worshiped by his many wives and concubines. Here is WISDOM! Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the Beast for it is the number of a man. His number is 666. I think is one of a number of types portrayed in the Bible of the ultimate Antichrist.

Solomon could be considered one of the many many antichrists .

666 a number metaphor used to represent that which no man could count. 666 represents all of mankind that has not been born again given the w eternal Spirit of Christ. They as the evil generation, the generation of Adam are marked as restless wanderers not receiving the sabbath rest we have in Christ .All of the days of their lives having no relief coming from God in whom they do not trust as fools.

God uses gold is used to represent the believers who have been purified by the world of God as a cleansing fire , The golden measure 666 most likely represents the generation of Christ as those born again

 

[garee]

Could what was restraining the man of lawlessness appearing in the first century be that there was no power and technology, which are the power, the signs, and lying wonders through which all the worlds nations he will fool into loving him and the beasts system?
The love for material goods is idolatry, which through technology is increasing mans love for the numerous new toys coming on the market daily.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The gospel is not concerned with the technological advances of the temporal things of this world seen . Using the new advances neither brings a person closer or moves them further away from God. Nothing is evil in its own self other than the devil .

Things seen or heard can influence but never be a source of faith. (the unseen eternal)

Satan as the god of this world would use the things seen to steal away the authorship of God not seen. Like smart phones .Or what some call dumbing down phones .

 

[louis]

Garee, The love for this world (the things which are in it) is contrary to love for God.
Those who love the things which are in the world are therefore contrary to God.
The love for material goods is idolatry.
And the love for material goods/idolatry today through technology is increasing.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Noose]

The bible uses the word holy as something set apart for a certain purpose .

Parables throughout the scriptures are set aside as holy using the temporal things of this world seen as a shadow of the "true holy place" unseen as the kingdom of God .

The kingdom of God does not come be looking at the temporal shadows as rudiments of this world . The places called holy on earth are representations of the eternal not seen ….again the "true holy" place reserved for God alone. And again not reserved for the things seen the temporal they will all disappear having fulfilled there temporal purpose to point to the true holy place . Faith

.2 Corinthians 4:18 is the key to finding the true unseen Holy Place it reveals how we can see the things not seen as His Spirit enlightens our new hearts making it possible to please Him

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal..2 Corinthians 4:18

The earthly Jerusalem is shadow of the true New Jerusalem or Zion she is seen coming down from heaven on the last day prepared as His eternal Holy bride not seen.

Even the Holy people are not what they will be. No longer male not female Jew not gentile. No longer flesh and blood or do we know Christ after any rudiment of this world

The Jews that where set aside in a parables and ceremonial laws to point to the true Holy place not seen are no longer used in parables and of the true Holy place not seen .The reformation came and restored the government to a place where there is no longer we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:an outward representation . Before there were kings in Israel .

Nope. Holy doesn't mean set apart, Holy means God. It is an attribute that makes God, God and only God is Holy.
Nobody has set apart God. If anything is said to be Holy, it only means there's the presence of God- For example, Moses was told to remove his sandals because he stood on Holy ground; it doesn't mean that the ground was set apart but the presence of God was there.

Sacred however, means set apart; like the temple/the high priest's clothing and tools of work e.t.c.

A holy people and a holy nation means people that are indwelled by God.

 

[garee]

I think Paul was thinking about a person who was more than just rude and obnoxious or anything approaching it. Its interesting that he calls that person ''The Son of perdition'' (destruction), the only other person in the whole Bible called this is Judas Iscariot who we are told was possessed by Satan

It would seem the phrase "son of perdition" simply means the son or person that suffered loss. No salvation.

As it applies as an example with Judas for the purpose of being used in respect to the word "twelve" to represent the authority of God as to whatever is in view as a partial representation of the bride of Christ in regard to Apostles those sent. They are used to represent the walls that make up the description of bride of Christ .This with Judas missing in the book of Revelation.

The other part of the description of the bride of Christ is described with gates... of the same bride or wife of Christ . This time leavening out the tribe of Dan to represent to Son of perdition'.

Both Judas and Dan as used to represent the poison of false doctrine as falling back slain in the Spirit with no hope of salvation, again giving rise to the word "son of perdition" as those who do suffer a eternal loss

Genesis 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall "fall backward"

John 18:5-6 King James Version (KJV)They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Today those who seek after a sign before they will believe or commit faith have come up with a new innovation that they call "falling back" as "slain in the spirit" to confirm as a sign... not knowing it confirms they are under a curse like the example of Judas and Dan.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nope. Holy doesn't mean set apart, Holy means God. It is an attribute that makes God, God and only God is Holy.

So, “You shall be holy, for I am holy” should say “You shall be God, for I am God?” (1 Peter 1:16)

 

[garee]

Garee, The love for this world (the things which are in it) is contrary to love for God.
Those who love the things which are in the world are therefore contrary to God.
The love for material goods is idolatry.
And the love for material goods/idolatry today through technology is increasing.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Yes, the new god of technology. the new age Guru.

Makes me wonder when he does come on the last day will he find faith in respect to the things not seen as eternal .or will he find .."Google it" as in the heart of man is evil continuously as it was in the days of Noah?

 

[Noose]

The antichrist is not an entity but many ideologies that oppose the truth who is God. The war is not against flesh and blood but principalities. The issue about the antichrist appearing has nothing to do with appearance of individuals but a timeline, specifically the end times.

One is only able to know what happens when in the spiritual realm by discerning Daniel's timelines. With correct calculation, one is able to know when the end times began and that simply means when satan is allowed to infiltrate the hearts of men with lies. Because the hearts of men is the temple of God, men succumbing to the lies means the antichrist has defiled the temple of God and this is what we call the abomination that causes desolate.

I guarantee you, we are so deep into this period (abomination that causes desolate) we are almost through it. It is all calculable.