The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
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"In the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares.... the harvest is the end of the world.... As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just." (selections from Matthew 13)
Seven Reasons
Why the Rapture Cannot Come
After the Tribulation
Seven Reasons
Why the Rapture Cannot Come
After the Tribulation
mobius8curve,
Please carefully study every passage in this link as a "sum" from "here a little there a little":
The great tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s/ISRAEL'S trouble (Jer 30:7)
1 Thes 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(NOTE: We which are alive and remain shall be """caught up""" to meet the Lord in the air)
The leading Greek Lexicon says the verb harpazo (strongs 726) means caught up, snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently."
The bride/Body of Christ is suddenly & vehemently. Caught up/snatched - Latin/raptured/ (1 Thes 4:16-17) off the earth, to meet the Lord in the air.
Zec 14:5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & """all the saints with Him."""
(NOTE: When he physically returns to earth """all the saints are with Him.""")
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints
(NOTE: The Lord Jesus returns with ten thousands of his saints)
1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(NOTE: Christ returns with ALL HIS SAINTS)
1 Thes 1:10 wait on his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivers us from the wrath to come
(NOTE: See 1 Thes 1:1, vs 10 is written to the Church. Say's Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come)
OT Examples of God sparing the Righteous from coming wrath
Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came
The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear
The Body/Bride of Christ/Church is Caught-Up/raptured, delivered from wrath coming to a God rebellious world
Please carefully study every passage in this link as a "sum" from "here a little there a little":
The great tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s/ISRAEL'S trouble (Jer 30:7)
1 Thes 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(NOTE: We which are alive and remain shall be """caught up""" to meet the Lord in the air)
The leading Greek Lexicon says the verb harpazo (strongs 726) means caught up, snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently."
The bride/Body of Christ is suddenly & vehemently. Caught up/snatched - Latin/raptured/ (1 Thes 4:16-17) off the earth, to meet the Lord in the air.
Zec 14:5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & """all the saints with Him."""
(NOTE: When he physically returns to earth """all the saints are with Him.""")
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints
(NOTE: The Lord Jesus returns with ten thousands of his saints)
1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(NOTE: Christ returns with ALL HIS SAINTS)
1 Thes 1:10 wait on his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivers us from the wrath to come
(NOTE: See 1 Thes 1:1, vs 10 is written to the Church. Say's Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come)
OT Examples of God sparing the Righteous from coming wrath
Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came
The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear
The Body/Bride of Christ/Church is Caught-Up/raptured, delivered from wrath coming to a God rebellious world
Are the tribulation and wrath the same thing? Is the tribulation brought on by Satan and the wrath of God in response? After the tribulation,when all is fine why would we need to be raptured if all is then well? In this tribulation how can one be killed for my(Jesus) names sake(Matthew 24:9) if those who confess their belief in Jesus are gone? Why would the Lord set forth his wrath on those who put me through this great tribulation when I was raptured before they caused me such great tribulation?
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I checked out your website. Although I don't agree with everything you wrote (who agrees with anyone completely, especially on eschatology 
) I think you have some great insights into the word. I read your articles on "All Israel", "2 Thess 2" and your "post-trib" one. Some good stuff mixed in there.
I'm guessing since you wrote this that you are a premillennialist. I am curious as to why you are premillennial? The reason I ask is because of this:
It seems you still have the same problem the pre-tribber and mid-tribber have. I say this because I am an amillennialist and I often use Job 14: 12 in my discussions with premillennials. When I present Job 14: 12 they never have an answer for it so I am puzzled why you would use it?
It sounds like you believe the heavens and earth will pass away and then there will still be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on this earth. I am curious how you justify that? Just an honest question to try and understand your thinking.
Another thing I would like to bring your attention to is that the first earth and heaven don't pass away until the Great White Throne Judgment. Rev 21: 1 confirms this. This is after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20.
I say all this because I think you are on the right track with your eschatology but some of your pieces don't fit. I'm not sure if you have checked out amillennialism before but I think if you did you might find that your pieces would fall into place.
) I think you have some great insights into the word. I read your articles on "All Israel", "2 Thess 2" and your "post-trib" one. Some good stuff mixed in there.I'm guessing since you wrote this that you are a premillennialist. I am curious as to why you are premillennial? The reason I ask is because of this:
It seems you still have the same problem the pre-tribber and mid-tribber have. I say this because I am an amillennialist and I often use Job 14: 12 in my discussions with premillennials. When I present Job 14: 12 they never have an answer for it so I am puzzled why you would use it
? It sounds like you believe the heavens and earth will pass away and then there will still be a 1,000 year reign of Christ on this earth. I am curious how you justify that? Just an honest question to try and understand your thinking.
Another thing I would like to bring your attention to is that the first earth and heaven don't pass away until the Great White Throne Judgment. Rev 21: 1 confirms this. This is after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20.
I say all this because I think you are on the right track with your eschatology but some of your pieces don't fit. I'm not sure if you have checked out amillennialism before but I think if you did you might find that your pieces would fall into place.
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I guess you forgot I asked you to respond to them, and explain why they can live with post trib, Guess this is your answer, Thank you.
vs 17 says Jesus is coming to ressurect us, (The dead in christ, and those alive) We will meet him in the sky, Not here on earth. UNlike matt 24, Where he returns to SPARE THE LIFE OF THE LIVING.
this should PROVE it is not during the return to earth to set up his kingdom. How can you claim it proves the rapture is the same as his return to earth to set up his kingdom. When NOTHING in chapter 4 even remotely says it has ANYTHING to do with his return to earth (not the sky)
Your stuck on a doctrine, Try reading the word and open your heart. You have not shown me where they both occur at the same time. And you have not even remotely disproven pre-trib. or mid trib (you do not even know what I believe, Why do you ASSUME??
Yes when he RETURNS TO THE EARTH and DESTROYS THE BEAST. Not when he returns to the SKY and ressurects his children.
I never said it did, I do nto have to, All I have to do is raise a possibility that post trib may not be correct. and show there is evidence that pre or mid trib may be true. You asserting they are the same event does not prove post trib.
Why is it when people are confronted they always have to resort to these strawmen which does not a thing to prove their belief?
You telling me what to think or what not to think does not prove anything.
You have yet to show me any,All you have shown me is a few verses that explain two totally different events, and say they are one, It like those who try to mix sanctification with justification saying they are the same, it is not true in either case.
if you do I will try to explain them (the ones you have shown me I have explained) Until then, I can just continue to believe as I do. because I see nothing to convince me otherwise
The man of sin is going to be destroyed, The rapture does not have to happen for this to occur, Why would you think it did? That makes no sense. And you still have not answered my questions (well you tried to answer one by saying a few lost people will survive which makes no sense at all) as to how things which are supposed to occur AFTER the rapture. are seen BEFORE the last trump, and return of Jesus on a horse. Are you going to try or are we going to keep going in circles? with you demanding I answer things I already have, and refusing to answer my own questions.
Another strawman, Same can be said of you. You can't prove postrib with out using pre or mid trib passages and assuming they are the same event as the return of christ to defeat all evil and restore the earth, and refuse to explain the inconsistencies and why things are occuring before that even which should NOT occur until after if you are correct.
Jesus put the return at the end of tribulation Matt 24, please look it up.
1 thess 4 has A PARTICULAR PEROUSIA which has jesus COMING (PEROUSIA) where WE MEET HIM IN THE SKY, nt HE MEETS US ON EARTH.
Please look with open heart and eyes and see why I can not see it your way. And stop with the greek stuff, I know what the word means, IT DOES NOT PROVE YOU RIGHT.
lol. Your doing everything you can to not ee what is in front of you. Wrath, look at the OT. God used gentile nations to pour out his wrath on Israel because of her sin. The great tribulation is Gods wrath on earth, why do you think it is called the greatest tribulation mankind has ever seen, or will ever see again?
and again with your childish attacks, lol. News flash man, Your not going to convince me of anything doing those things, I need proof. You have yet to show me any.
Oh and again, You refuse to answer my questions, I will just go off the assumption it is because you cant (which is why you attacked, to take the focus off your inability to answer
1. There is no gathering
2. Jesus said himself. if he did not come, all live would die, so for the sake of the ELECT he comes and puts an end to the war.
3. OT prophesies show us after this event, The time of th egentile is up. Israel has repented. Jesus is ruling, and there is peace on earth through all nations.
4. No rapture. No gathering, Just jesus returning to save peoples lives.
But you see rapture in places where rapture can not e found, so I see why you believe the way you do.
Read the OT, daniel 2. Where is the rapture when jesus (the rock) breaks the stutue of kingdoms and sets up his own kingdom
Or how about dan 7, When the son of an comes and wipes out the final beast, putting an end to the final gentile kingdom and setting up his own.
or the many other passages which show what wil happen when messiah returns to earth as king, and no rapture is mentioned.
vs 17 says Jesus is coming to ressurect us, (The dead in christ, and those alive) We will meet him in the sky, Not here on earth. UNlike matt 24, Where he returns to SPARE THE LIFE OF THE LIVING.
this should PROVE it is not during the return to earth to set up his kingdom. How can you claim it proves the rapture is the same as his return to earth to set up his kingdom. When NOTHING in chapter 4 even remotely says it has ANYTHING to do with his return to earth (not the sky)
Your stuck on a doctrine, Try reading the word and open your heart. You have not shown me where they both occur at the same time. And you have not even remotely disproven pre-trib. or mid trib (you do not even know what I believe, Why do you ASSUME??
Yes when he RETURNS TO THE EARTH and DESTROYS THE BEAST. Not when he returns to the SKY and ressurects his children.
I never said it did, I do nto have to, All I have to do is raise a possibility that post trib may not be correct. and show there is evidence that pre or mid trib may be true. You asserting they are the same event does not prove post trib.
Why is it when people are confronted they always have to resort to these strawmen which does not a thing to prove their belief?
You telling me what to think or what not to think does not prove anything.
You have yet to show me any,All you have shown me is a few verses that explain two totally different events, and say they are one, It like those who try to mix sanctification with justification saying they are the same, it is not true in either case.
if you do I will try to explain them (the ones you have shown me I have explained) Until then, I can just continue to believe as I do. because I see nothing to convince me otherwise
The man of sin is going to be destroyed, The rapture does not have to happen for this to occur, Why would you think it did? That makes no sense. And you still have not answered my questions (well you tried to answer one by saying a few lost people will survive which makes no sense at all) as to how things which are supposed to occur AFTER the rapture. are seen BEFORE the last trump, and return of Jesus on a horse. Are you going to try or are we going to keep going in circles? with you demanding I answer things I already have, and refusing to answer my own questions.
Another strawman, Same can be said of you. You can't prove postrib with out using pre or mid trib passages and assuming they are the same event as the return of christ to defeat all evil and restore the earth, and refuse to explain the inconsistencies and why things are occuring before that even which should NOT occur until after if you are correct.
Jesus put the return at the end of tribulation Matt 24, please look it up.
1 thess 4 has A PARTICULAR PEROUSIA which has jesus COMING (PEROUSIA) where WE MEET HIM IN THE SKY, nt HE MEETS US ON EARTH.
Please look with open heart and eyes and see why I can not see it your way. And stop with the greek stuff, I know what the word means, IT DOES NOT PROVE YOU RIGHT.
lol. Your doing everything you can to not ee what is in front of you. Wrath, look at the OT. God used gentile nations to pour out his wrath on Israel because of her sin. The great tribulation is Gods wrath on earth, why do you think it is called the greatest tribulation mankind has ever seen, or will ever see again?
and again with your childish attacks, lol. News flash man, Your not going to convince me of anything doing those things, I need proof. You have yet to show me any.
Oh and again, You refuse to answer my questions, I will just go off the assumption it is because you cant (which is why you attacked, to take the focus off your inability to answer
1. There is no gathering
2. Jesus said himself. if he did not come, all live would die, so for the sake of the ELECT he comes and puts an end to the war.
3. OT prophesies show us after this event, The time of th egentile is up. Israel has repented. Jesus is ruling, and there is peace on earth through all nations.
4. No rapture. No gathering, Just jesus returning to save peoples lives.
But you see rapture in places where rapture can not e found, so I see why you believe the way you do.
Read the OT, daniel 2. Where is the rapture when jesus (the rock) breaks the stutue of kingdoms and sets up his own kingdom
Or how about dan 7, When the son of an comes and wipes out the final beast, putting an end to the final gentile kingdom and setting up his own.
or the many other passages which show what wil happen when messiah returns to earth as king, and no rapture is mentioned.
E
1. If your here to promote your website, it is against the regulations of this chatroom. I would suggest stopping
2. If you want to discuss, then lets discuss. I am not here to discuss some web page, I am here to discuss the word of God
3. There is no 7 year tribulation. There is actually a 3.5 year tribulation, which will occure after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. and mentioned by Jesus in matt 24
4. not sure where yu got the rest of your info. I see nothing in scripture which would lead me to see what period or the ressurection of the dead occuring after.
I never said every living soul. so please try to read before you respond. Jesus said he would come because if he did not all flesh would die. He came to save the ELECT.
The saved who enter the reign of christ, will have children, they will repopulate the nations. and all these nations will be ruled By Jesus.
if you would read the bible as I see it, Jesus restors the earth to what it was supposed to be. Babys will lay with snakes and lions will lay wich sheep. and no one will be afraid. Peace will be restored. And even satan will be bound unable to decieve nations.. It will beb a time like this earth has never seen. Yet people will still reject jesus. and there will still be sin so yes, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron
Yes, I know about this verse, not sure why you think this proves me wrong
2. If you want to discuss, then lets discuss. I am not here to discuss some web page, I am here to discuss the word of God
3. There is no 7 year tribulation. There is actually a 3.5 year tribulation, which will occure after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. and mentioned by Jesus in matt 24
4. not sure where yu got the rest of your info. I see nothing in scripture which would lead me to see what period or the ressurection of the dead occuring after.
I never said every living soul. so please try to read before you respond. Jesus said he would come because if he did not all flesh would die. He came to save the ELECT.
The saved who enter the reign of christ, will have children, they will repopulate the nations. and all these nations will be ruled By Jesus.
if you would read the bible as I see it, Jesus restors the earth to what it was supposed to be. Babys will lay with snakes and lions will lay wich sheep. and no one will be afraid. Peace will be restored. And even satan will be bound unable to decieve nations.. It will beb a time like this earth has never seen. Yet people will still reject jesus. and there will still be sin so yes, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron
Yes, I know about this verse, not sure why you think this proves me wrong
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I have heard and read three different opinions from many scholars. With lots of biblical support for all three positions. I'm very sure you have no further insight than any of those studied men. I personally think that those passages are not fully understood yet, because we do not understand time as God does. I also invite you to understand that the reason that Jesus was not recognized by the religious leaders of the time yet recognized by the Persian Magi, and the old man at the temple and Anna the prayer lady is because God revealed to them the knowledge. Some of the prophecies of the old testament told of a powerful conquering king and others of one who would be persecuted and killed. Which was it? The answer is both, and that was a first coming and another coming the latter of which has still yet to come. My advice is to pray and study and prepare yourself for his coming because that is for sure. I absolutely would not say to myself that because the anti-christ isn't revealed yet, the return of our Lord is not yet.
I say all this because I think you are on the right track with your eschatology but some of your pieces don't fit. I'm not sure if you have checked out amillennialism before but I think if you did you might find that your pieces would fall into place. [/QUOTE]
This site is forcing me to post this in 2 parts because I have exceeded the 10,000 characters rule
Thank you very much for bringing this up because it caused me to pause and do some study on this particular argument in regard to the premillenial/amillenial thesises! Let's examine the passage around Job 14:12 because the way Job used the pronouns "they" and "me" proves I may have needed to post verse 13 as well to fully clarify my intent:
Job 14:10-13 But man dieth, and is laid low: Yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (11) As the waters fail from the sea, And the river wasteth and drieth up; (12) So man lieth down and riseth not: Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, Nor be roused out of their sleep. (13) Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job is clearly distinguishing himself from the "they" in verse 12 who would be the "natural" man such as the lineage of Cain who will not be raised up until the great white throne judgment. Job then goes on in verse 13 to request that Jehovah hide him as a spiritual man from the wrath to come in the secret place until his appointed time to rise which I hope we both believe is the rapture/ressurrection of the just who will from heaven observe the rest of the year of wrath until Christ comes back to earth with His armies:
Psalms 91:1-8 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. (2) I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust. (3) For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence. (4) He will cover thee with his pinions, And under his wings shalt thou take refuge: His truth is a shield and a buckler. (5) Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night, Nor for the arrow that flieth by day; (6) For the pestilence that walketh in darkness, Nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. (7) A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee. (8) Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, And see the reward of the wicked.
Now let's work on the "heavens be no more" as stated in Job 14:12 and in the other two passages you posted from my link so we can grasp when "the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places":
2 Pet.3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
First please remember that Father never contradicts Himself so when He says the foundation of the earth will abide forever that does not mean He won't change and rearrange the surface of the earth:
Psalms 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which he hath established for ever.
Psalms 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.
At this point in my studies I believe(with a twist of conjecture) that the seven days of creation represent 7~1000 year periods in which we have just entered the 7th millenium as of 9/11 or are about to enter with the start of the tribulation where God finishes His work and rests for the rest of the 7th day/millennium:
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
[/QUOTE]This site is forcing me to post this in 2 parts because I have exceeded the 10,000 characters rule
Thank you very much for bringing this up because it caused me to pause and do some study on this particular argument in regard to the premillenial/amillenial thesises! Let's examine the passage around Job 14:12 because the way Job used the pronouns "they" and "me" proves I may have needed to post verse 13 as well to fully clarify my intent:
Job 14:10-13 But man dieth, and is laid low: Yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (11) As the waters fail from the sea, And the river wasteth and drieth up; (12) So man lieth down and riseth not: Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, Nor be roused out of their sleep. (13) Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job is clearly distinguishing himself from the "they" in verse 12 who would be the "natural" man such as the lineage of Cain who will not be raised up until the great white throne judgment. Job then goes on in verse 13 to request that Jehovah hide him as a spiritual man from the wrath to come in the secret place until his appointed time to rise which I hope we both believe is the rapture/ressurrection of the just who will from heaven observe the rest of the year of wrath until Christ comes back to earth with His armies:
Psalms 91:1-8 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. (2) I will say of Jehovah, He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in whom I trust. (3) For he will deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, And from the deadly pestilence. (4) He will cover thee with his pinions, And under his wings shalt thou take refuge: His truth is a shield and a buckler. (5) Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night, Nor for the arrow that flieth by day; (6) For the pestilence that walketh in darkness, Nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. (7) A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand; But it shall not come nigh thee. (8) Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, And see the reward of the wicked.
Now let's work on the "heavens be no more" as stated in Job 14:12 and in the other two passages you posted from my link so we can grasp when "the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places":
2 Pet.3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood; (13) and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. (14) And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
First please remember that Father never contradicts Himself so when He says the foundation of the earth will abide forever that does not mean He won't change and rearrange the surface of the earth:
Psalms 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which he hath established for ever.
Psalms 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.
At this point in my studies I believe(with a twist of conjecture
) that the seven days of creation represent 7~1000 year periods in which we have just entered the 7th millenium as of 9/11 or are about to enter with the start of the tribulation where God finishes His work and rests for the rest of the 7th day/millennium:Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
The "heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up" could simply be the "veil" into the heavenlies is finally removed so that all will see what they fear most pleading that the rocks fall on them but Father causes "every mountain and island were moved out of their places" so no one can hide:
Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;
Revelation 6:14-17 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?
We know based on Paul that there are 3 levels of heaven:
2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
The 1st heaven is that which we see from the surface of the earth to the galaxies in space and for conjectures sake we shall call it the outer court(our bodies). Then the 2nd heaven where the spiritual realm exists we shall call the holy place(our soul). Then the 3rd heaven is the throne room we shall call the holiest of holies(our spirit):
Hebrews 8:4-5 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are those who offer the gifts according to the law; (5) who serve that which is a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses is warned of God when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (17) If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.
Please remember that we are instructed to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus while we are on the earth:
Ephesians 2:6-7 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: (7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
Revelation 12:7-12 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; (8) and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. (10) And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. (11) And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death. (12) Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
Our Father will finish this work that He declared from the foundation of the world in all of His ordained sons by the end of the tribulation which will be the morning of the 7th day being the 7th millennium and then rest the remainder of that day/millennium before the white throne judgment commences:
Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: (4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: (5) having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Please do not forget that this morning of the 7th day/millennium will also be the morning of the 3rd day/millennium from Christ when the "latter rain" commences:
Hosea 6:1-3 Come, and let us return unto Jehovah; for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. (2) After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live before him. (3) And let us know, let us follow on to know Jehovah: his going forth is sure as the morning; and he will come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain that watereth the earth.
1 Corinthians 15:45-52 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (46) Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So just because the Father makes the "heavens to pass away" or "be removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places"(such as Peter was led to write) at the beginning of the day of the Lord does not mean He has to replace the heavens and the surface of the earth before this last millennium and the great white throne judgment is over:
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.
I "conjecture" that there is a possibility that the Father has purposed to preserve to some degree the continent of Africa, where it just so happens that the pyramid of Giza lies, to be the place where those who repopulate the earth will reside during Revelation chapter 20 but please understand this is pure conjecture!
Father has proven that He like to rearrange His earth when He sees fit:
Genesis 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.
Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;
Revelation 6:14-17 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?
We know based on Paul that there are 3 levels of heaven:
2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
The 1st heaven is that which we see from the surface of the earth to the galaxies in space and for conjectures sake we shall call it the outer court(our bodies). Then the 2nd heaven where the spiritual realm exists we shall call the holy place(our soul). Then the 3rd heaven is the throne room we shall call the holiest of holies(our spirit):
Hebrews 8:4-5 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are those who offer the gifts according to the law; (5) who serve that which is a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses is warned of God when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (17) If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.
Please remember that we are instructed to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus while we are on the earth:
Ephesians 2:6-7 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: (7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
Revelation 12:7-12 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; (8) and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. (10) And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. (11) And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death. (12) Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
Our Father will finish this work that He declared from the foundation of the world in all of His ordained sons by the end of the tribulation which will be the morning of the 7th day being the 7th millennium and then rest the remainder of that day/millennium before the white throne judgment commences:
Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: (4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: (5) having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Please do not forget that this morning of the 7th day/millennium will also be the morning of the 3rd day/millennium from Christ when the "latter rain" commences:
Hosea 6:1-3 Come, and let us return unto Jehovah; for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. (2) After two days will he revive us: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live before him. (3) And let us know, let us follow on to know Jehovah: his going forth is sure as the morning; and he will come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain that watereth the earth.
1 Corinthians 15:45-52 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (46) Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
So just because the Father makes the "heavens to pass away" or "be removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places"(such as Peter was led to write) at the beginning of the day of the Lord does not mean He has to replace the heavens and the surface of the earth before this last millennium and the great white throne judgment is over:
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.
I "conjecture" that there is a possibility that the Father has purposed to preserve to some degree the continent of Africa, where it just so happens that the pyramid of Giza lies, to be the place where those who repopulate the earth will reside during Revelation chapter 20 but please understand this is pure conjecture!
Father has proven that He like to rearrange His earth when He sees fit:
Genesis 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.
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^ Re: "the DOTL" and where it says (in Peter) "IN WHICH"... the "IN WHICH" means a lot happens within it (it is of long duration), and this is just ONE of the things taking place at that time frame. (so is Acts 17:31nasb)
[compare that passage in Peter ^ to both chapters of Isaiah 34-35, and not just a singular verse in 34:4]
[compare that passage in Peter ^ to both chapters of Isaiah 34-35, and not just a singular verse in 34:4]
When one studies this link I hope it becomes apparent that the Gentiles were added into(grafted into) the ONE olive tree so that the commonwealth of Israel is now made up of both physical Jews as well as believing Gentiles so that "all Israel" will be saved:
https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/
https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/
I am not here to promote my website but it is so much easier to post a link to my website that already addresses a discussion than copy and paste the whole content of a link! in this comment section! I am a firm believer that any discussion requires a lot of God's Word to fully understand a specific doctrine so why not post a "hopefully" comprehensive link rather than just a few precepts so we can examine much more proof that is "here a little there a little as my website attempts to do:
https://sumofthyword.com/
I committed to keeping my words to less than 20% of any given link so that the passages of the Word of God that Father led me to draw together contain at least 80% of the words of any given link so He conveys His truth and all I am "hopefully" doing is compiling the sum and pointing the reader to examine what His Word is saying
https://sumofthyword.com/
I committed to keeping my words to less than 20% of any given link so that the passages of the Word of God that Father led me to draw together contain at least 80% of the words of any given link so He conveys His truth and all I am "hopefully" doing is compiling the sum and pointing the reader to examine what His Word is saying