The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[louis]

Some see 'the elect' as the Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah til the end. I'm asking around on the insight of 11 Thes 2:1-8, thx.

The individual in 2 Thes 2:4 who exalts himself is the same individual in Daniel 8:25, 11:36-37, who magnifies himself.
He's a narcissist.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[mobius8curve]

I think you inadvertently made reference to the pre-trib w/Lk 21:36, 'escape all these things that shall come to pass' heehee. Good night ya all, I'm watching Hallmark Christmas now w/some hot bamboo tea.

Sorry I just realized your my sister in Christ.

Yea this passage sure has been misunderstood by a lot of pretribbers:

Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. (35) For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Being "accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" has nothing to do with escaping tribulation for which we will be counted "worthy" if we endure:

2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: (5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus was referring to being worthy to escape "that day" which He mentions in verse 34. "That day" is "the day of the Lord" which is AFTER the tribulation that is a year long as is easily proven here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

[mobius8curve]

I believe the rapture happens on the day of the second coming of our LORD Jesus Christ and not a day before..

The rapture/resurrection happen After the tribulation just as the year of wrath commences but the second coming does not occur until near the end of that year of wrath when Christ comes with His armies from heaven:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

[mobius8curve]

The individual in 2 Thes 2:4 who exalts himself is the same individual in Daniel 8:25, 11:36-37, who magnifies himself.
He's a narcissist.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

He is called the "mystery of lawlessness":

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

 

[mobius8curve]

Its what I believe. Not everyone would agree with me.

Nowhere within the context of 2 Thessalonians does Paul even elude to Michael but he does elude to the "son of perdition":

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

 

[Adstar]

The rapture/resurrection happen After the tribulation just as the year of wrath commences but the second coming does not occur until near the end of that year of wrath when Christ comes with His armies from heaven:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

From my reading of the Bible i do not agree.. The Rapture happens at the final trumpet.. And on the day of the second coming of Jesus a loud trumpet will sound...

 

[louis]

He is called the "mystery of lawlessness":

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

I could not find in my KJV where the one who exalts himself/magnifies himself is called the mystery of lawlessness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I guess you missed what Jesus said to the soul to the right of Him during His crucifixion:

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I am sure Moses and Elijah have a good chance of being labeled as part of that 24 elders in Revelation chapter 5:

Matthew 17:2-3 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Oh an lets not forget the many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many:

Matthew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I am sure there is sufficient number in just those couple of passages to fill the choir of praisers in Revelation chapter 5. And yes Revelation chapter 5 is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation

I am sure you knw this does not prove your point. The ressurected people (lazarus and others on the day he died) died again, and had to go through that, They did NOT have their glorified bodies, they did NOT have the things which they would recieve after having been judged, And even abraham was in paradise, Which is the resting place of all the saints UNTIL the ressurection.

But I am also sure non of this matters to you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In the OT, ref Isa 45:4 '...Israel mine elect...', Isa 65:9, the word 'elect' according to Strong's is 'chosen'. This is God referring to Israel. However, in the NT, chosen is now referred to all those who accept Jesus. Re 11Thes 2:6, nowhere that I have found does 'he' refer to God. Most Biblical groups see 'he' or 'the restrainer' as the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ, the Church.

You forgot romans 11 Where the elect included all saved and unsaved Israel.

When you see the word “Elect” You need context.

The election of Israel had nothing to do wiht salvation. It was a nation God chose (elected) to work through to prove to the world he was the real God. And to bore a savior

The elect of the body of Christ in all ages refered to all people no matter what nationality they had who would come to grace and knowledge of God and were saved.

Gentiles can be part of first election. But they had to go through alot of stuff.

All people have the ability or capacity in faith to be part of the second election.

As with all doctrines, Context is our best friend, Ignore context. And you risk getting the point God was trying to make with his word wrong.

 

[mobius8curve]

I could not find in my KJV where the one who exalts himself/magnifies himself is called the mystery of lawlessness.

The ASV uses the word "lawlessness":

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

The KJV uses the word "iniquity" which basically means the same thing:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry but the Greek word "eklektos" was used 23 times in the NT. Sixteen times it was translated into the English word "elect" and seven times it was translated into the English word "chosen" such as here:

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's(eklektos) sake, whom he hath chosen(eklegomai), he hath shortened the days.

The "elect" which are the "chosen" from the foundation of the world are ALL going to be raptured/resurrected at the very same time AFTER the tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Those "elect" mentioned in earlier in Mathew chapter 24 are the part of the "eklektos" that are still alive on the earth at the end of the tribulation but by no means are they the only "elect" from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here try studying some Greek on the subject bro:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1586&t=KJV

You can not stop with your pride and behavior can you?

Dude I know what the word mean. So please back off and stop thinking you can teach me anything concerning the origional text. I have access to so many language helps it would blos your mind.

1. You did not prove me wrong here
2. Israel has and always wil be the ELECT according to the abrahamic covenant (And I give you all your descendents after you this land as an ETERNAL gift. And I will be your god. (This election NEVER saved one person. It never assured the salvation of anyone, and sadly, like many jews. People mitrsnalte Gods word and meaning behind this to support their own views, and refuse to see what God was saying.

Rom 11 says plainly. Isreal is to be HATED (as a nation) Because of the gospel (because she has rejected the gospel as a nation) but BELOVED concerning the ELECTION because the PROMISES OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE)

Understanding greek is meaningless if you do not understand how to apply proper hermeneutics to a passage so you can properly interrpet it.

No I will send it back to you. Please respond to my posts and show me were I erred, and try to show some humility and love in your responses. Or I will end this quickly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So a brother in Christ would not want to live during the greatest harvest of saints the world has ever seen??? Peter disagrees wholeheartedly with you:

2 Peter 3:11-14 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness, (12) looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.

Revelation 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (8) But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

Yet again you misunderstood anything I said completely.

Do you have a reading comprehenstion issue?

I ask sincerely. Please reread what I posted and try again. I never insinuated what you claimed.

PS. What you just explained was AFTER the 1000 year reign when God destroys this earth, and makes a new heaven and earth. I was not even remotely discussing that time. Or what you said..

 

[louis]

The ASV uses the word "lawlessness":

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

The KJV uses the word "iniquity" which basically means the same thing:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

While the mystery of iniquity was already present and working in the first century (2 Thess 2:7), the previous verse (2 Thess 2:6) clearly shows that the individual who shows himself to be the people's love (god), was then not yet present.
It (the mystery of iniquity) had to develop over the centuries, to what we have today in order for the individual in question to arise.


2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yea this passage sure has been misunderstood by a lot of pretribbers:

Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. (35) For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. (36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Being "accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" has nothing to do with escaping tribulation for which we will be counted "worthy" if we endure:

I know you [just] said "a lot of pretribbers," but for the record (as a pretribber myself), I've stated that Luke 21:36 [see also context vv 27-28] is not about our Rapture (nothing in the Olivet Discourse covers that subject), but rather His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19 / 16:14-16 / Isa24:21-22(23) ]; ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages (as this one is) refer to His Second Coming to the earth (and the events surrounding and leading UP TO *that*). They are instructed to "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy [or, have strength, as some versions have it] to escape [actively flee out of] all these things that shall come to pass [coming on the earth, during the trib], and to stand before [that is, in a judicial sense] the Son of man." [to judge and to reign]

...whereas, to/for/about "the Church which is His body," Scripture says, in 1Th5:9-10 [in part], "[...by means of our Lord Jesus Christ] Who died for us, that, whether we may watch [same word as in verse 1Th5:6] or whether we may sleep [same word as in verse 1Th5:6, NOT meaning "death" here], we should live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION' with] Him."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT TO ADD: "salvation" in the Thessalonians epistles refers to an eschatological salvation


[Paul, in/throughout these two epistles, refers to our Rapture in something like TEN different words/phrases, rather than just merely in 1Th4:16-17, that most acknowledge (with its "G726 - harpagēsometha" word)]

 

[Absolutely]

Not that I'm arguing,but just tying to follow the discussion so what do you see #726 and 3507 mean if not? https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

I thes 4 is the rapture.
It happens before or right at the beginning of the GT

 

[Absolutely]

Who is this directed to me?

Quoting and adding to your post. Just adding to what was said

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I thes 4 is the rapture.
It happens before or right at the beginning of the GT

Some of us (pretribbers) see the term "GT / 'the GREAT tribulation'" to be referring to the 2nd half only (3.5 years; per Matthew 24:21 and context), thus this (what you have written ^ ) would mean "@ mid-trib". Is that what you mean?

 

[louis]

While the mystery of iniquity was already present and working in the first century (2 Thess 2:7), the previous verse (2 Thess 2:6) clearly shows that the individual who shows himself to be the people's love (god), was then not yet present.
It (the mystery of iniquity) had to develop over the centuries, to what we have today in order for the individual in question to arise.


2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Scriptures do say that when the Lord returns, the world will be as in the days of Noah, and as in the days of Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-29).
It appears the mystery of iniquity still has some progression before the world gets to the days of Noah and Lot.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 

[Absolutely]

The hour of trial is not the great tribulation.
πειρασμοῦ
peirasmou And do not lead us into temptation, ( testing, trial etc. ) but deliver us---- versus

θλῖψις
thlipsis Great tribulation matthew 24:21

The hour
Coming upon the whole earth.

Oh,not to worry,its just temptation to eat an extra cookie.

Oh yea I'm buying that one