The Bible teaches Annihilationism for the wicked

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#41
^ I'm glad to see Hevosmies' article includes reference to Revelation 20:10, where it says,

"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." (see how the phrase "to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" is used elsewhere, such as Galatians 1:5 [and others*] "To whom be glory to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... i.e. what we call forever)


[*Phil4:20, etc]
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#42
Matthew 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [g]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive the greater condemnation.

So what "greater condemnation" are they going to receive if they are annihilated just like all the other unsaved?

They have to take the 1st jump into the LOF?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#43
Matthew 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [g]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive the greater condemnation.

So what "greater condemnation" are they going to receive if they are annihilated just like all the other unsaved?

They have to take the 1st jump into the LOF?
Its like jumping into a pool at the swimming hall, some jump from the highest level. Thats the greater condemnation there. The scholars at Decepticus Deceivitus Theology Cemetary have also suggested that the greater condemnation could mean that the pharisees will have to jump to the lake of fire covered in gasoline.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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#44
My own comments: You are making the mistake of assuming "second death" means "dying again physically" or "ceasing to exist".
The second death is the destruction of the soul. It is ceasing to exist forever. The Bible makes it clear that all people who have died the first death (physical), both saved and unsaved, are sleeping right now (Job 14: 12, Dan 12: 2 and other verses) Sleeping is a perfect term because they are going to awake to be judged.

The second death is the death of the soul and is forever. No waking up this time. How do you explain Matthew 10: 28 which makes this clear?

The word destruction is apollumi and often times that word is used for "LOST SHEEP" of Israel, now these sheep werent non-existent at the time Jesus said that.
The lost sheep were existing, physically. They were dead spiritually. Ceasing to exist spiritually. Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again. He was alive physically but dead spiritually. He didn't exist spiritually. Yes, you are separated but you are separated because you are dead spiritually. It's the death that causes the separation.

Your whole post revolved around "separation" means "death". What you fail to recognize is that when you are dead spiritually you don't exist on the spiritual level. You have ceased to exist spiritually. That is why you are separated. The death causes the separation. They are not the same thing as you are claiming. One causes the other.

Also I would like to point out the part I bolded is exactly my concern with annihilationism, its the DREAM COME TRUE for atheists. Party hard, and not exist later.
Being destroyed is hardly getting away with sin. People pay for their sins in this life and they will also suffer punishment at the judgment seat of Christ. Then they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his angels.

I addressed every verse in my original post that seems to support ECT and showed that it actually supports annihilationism. I noticed you didn't address any of my arguments.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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#45
I'm glad to see Hevosmies' article includes reference to Revelation 20:10, where it says,

"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." (see how the phrase "to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" is used elsewhere, such as Galatians 1:5 [and others*] "To whom be glory to the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... i.e. what we call forever)
I answered that Rev 20: 10 in my original post. I answered all the verses that seem to support ECT in my original post and showed from the Scripture why they mean destruction not ECT.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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#46
So what "greater condemnation" are they going to receive if they are annihilated just like all the other unsaved?
When do people get condemned? In a court of law. They get judged. This greater condemnation will happen at the judgment seat of Christ. Here is a verse about greater condemnation:

Luke 12: 46-48, " the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

These are condemned servants. Some beaten with many stripes. Some beaten with few. Are they being beaten with few stripes forever? There is a period of punishment that varies for the lost and then destruction in the Lake of Fire.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#47
I addressed every verse in my original post that seems to support ECT and showed that it actually supports annihilationism. I noticed you didn't address any of my arguments.
ive heard it all before thats why. Its the atheist dream come true

I go to sleep every night (I hope I do atleast). ITS NOT THAT BAD being unconscious. I like it.

Annihilation to me would equal to salvation.
 

YDo

Active member
Dec 9, 2018
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#48
Thank you for the warning about the length of your discussion starter. ;)
I think that since God alone is immortal and creator of all things that it is perfectly within the purview of the giver of life to utterly destroy that which he first created.
I would suggest with a reading of the Bible that all life returns to the giver of it. Just as he said. In point of fact it can be argued the "I"dentity we have in this worldly preoccupation is annhilated when our souls return to the giver of them. And that Identity we have as flesh and bone returns to dust.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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#49
I would suggest with a reading of the Bible that all life returns to the giver of it. Just as he said. In point of fact it can be argued the "I"dentity we have in this worldly preoccupation is annhilated when our souls return to the giver of them. And that Identity we have as flesh and bone returns to dust.
It talks about us all being made one in Christ. We are His body. At the resurrection we shall be made perfect and conformed to His image. The firstborn among many brethren.

It seems to me that the reason there are so many "identies" today is because of sin and it's aberrant behavior in the flesh.

You could say that there will be only one "identity" in the new heavens and earth made up of lots of "angels" since that's what Jesus said we would be like. God all and in all. Kind of like how the trinity is now. 3 persons but one being. Of course we won't be God but we shall be like Him.
 

YDo

Active member
Dec 9, 2018
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#50
It talks about us all being made one in Christ. We are His body. At the resurrection we shall be made perfect and conformed to His image. The firstborn among many brethren.

It seems to me that the reason there are so many "identies" today is because of sin and it's aberrant behavior in the flesh.

You could say that there will be only one "identity" in the new heavens and earth made up of lots of "angels" since that's what Jesus said we would be like. God all and in all. Kind of like how the trinity is now. 3 persons but one being. Of course we won't be God but we shall be like Him.
Perhaps my use of the term, "I"dentity, should have been expounded upon so as to inform its intended meaning here as that of , individual. The I , as one knows themselves to be. The "Me", "I", "Self".
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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#51
Perhaps my use of the term, "I"dentity, should have been expounded upon so as to inform its intended meaning here as that of , individual. The I , as one knows themselves to be. The "Me", "I", "Self".
I don't know if I follow what you are saying or not. Are you saying you don't think there will be individuals in the new heavens and earth? Just trying to figure out where you are coming from. :)
 

YDo

Active member
Dec 9, 2018
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#52


" And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. " Matthew 10:28

Maybe for context so as to ponder the discussion starter question substitute Annihilation in those passages that refer to the second death. "second annihilation".

Cruel dogmas make for cruel people.
 

YDo

Active member
Dec 9, 2018
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#53
I don't know if I follow what you are saying or not. Are you saying you don't think there will be individuals in the new heavens and earth? Just trying to figure out where you are coming from. :)
Thanks for your question. No, I don't think we'll be people as we know ourselves to be. Not even the Bible tells us that. We will be in glorified bodies. Like unto our recollection of Jesus state after he resurrected from the tomb. He told the Magdalene not to touch him when she went to hug him because he'd not yet ascened to his father.
I think our image will be like unto what was in the beginning. That of the image and likeness of a perfect father God.
If our flesh is corrupt now, why would we return to an earth that was made new in a bodily form that was formerly corrupt for being flesh and worldly?
 

YDo

Active member
Dec 9, 2018
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#54
This is a debate you all might enjoy concerning the question.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#55
Let us go now to probably the strongest verse in favor of ECT (eternal conscious torment) and see if it really teaches that:



Revelation 14: 10-11, “…he will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the angels and of the lamb (Jesus). And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast or his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.”



These verses look really strong for the ECT proponent. But not so fast…



There is a text in the Old Testament that mirrors Revelation 14 and gives us the true meaning:



Isaiah 34: 9-10, “Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever.”



If we look at the context of Isaiah 34 it is talking about the total destruction of Edom.

Isaiah 34: 5 says Edom will be “completely destroyed” and Obadiah which is a book about the demise of Edom confirms in verses 10 and 18 that it will be “destroyed forever.” This is exactly what happened over 2,500 years ago when the Babylonians destroyed Edom in the 6th century B.C. Edom is not still being tormented. To further drive home this point let us look at the extremely similar language between Isaiah 34 and Revelation 14.



Isaiah 34 “burning sulfur” Revelation 14 “burning sulfur

Isaiah 34 “smoke rises forever” Revelation 14 “smoke rises forever

Isaiah 34 “not be quenched night or day” Rev 14 “no rest day or night



This proves that Revelation 14: 10-11 cannot be used to refer to eternal conscious torment because in Isaiah 34: 9-10 it clearly refers to the eternal destruction of Edom. This also lines up with all the rest of the verses we have covered so far in this study.



Please take special notice that in Isaiah 34: 9-10 that Edom will burn and not be quenched “night or day”. Yet we know it was eventually consumed and destroyed.



So also the wicked people in Revelation 14: 10-11 will have “no rest day or night” until the burning sulfur (lake of fire) consumes them. This takes place after the judgment seat of Christ at the end of time. Then they will cease to exist just like Edom did 2,500 years ago.



Rev 21: 8 tells us also that burning sulfur is another name for the lake of fire. Which is the second death that all unbelievers experience after the judgment seat of Christ. They are burned up by God’s judgment and cease to exist forever. This is why Revelation 14: 10-11 also say, “they will be tormented in the burning sulfur in the presence of the angels and the Lamb” and then will cease to exist.



Jesus and the angels won’t be standing around for all eternity watching unbelievers suffer in the lake of fire. They will be quickly destroyed in their presence.



Another reason Revelation 14: 10-11 cannot mean eternal conscious torment is similar language is used about the destruction of Babylon in Revelation chapters 18 and 19.



Revelation 18: verses 9 & 18 talk about Babylon and “the smoke of her burning.” Verses 10 & 15 talk about people standing at a distance for “fear of her torment.” Does this mean ECT? Verse 8 says Babylon will be “consumed by fire.” And Rev 19 verse 3 says, “the smoke from here goes up forever and ever.



This is the same language as Rev 14: 10-11 and means complete destruction not eternal conscious torment. Besides, how is Babylon, a city, consciously tormented forever? This is clearly figurative language showing that all enemies of God will be destroyed, never to live again.



Let’s look at the last verse used by ECT proponents:



Revelation 20: 10, “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur (lake of fire/hell), where the beast and false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



Does this mean eternal conscious torment? No.



Looking at Revelation 13: 1-2 we see a description of the beast. The imagery is taken from Daniel 7: 1-7. The beast represents all kingdoms/governments of the world that oppose God’s kingdom and set man up as ruler of the world apart from God. Can kingdoms/governments be tormented consciously forever and ever? The answer is obviously no. They are abstract entities and not actual people who can be “tormented”.



What about the devil? Let’s look at Ezekiel to find out his fate…



Ezekiel 28: verses 1-19 is a prophecy about the King of Tyre from the 6th century B.C. All commentators agree that verses 1-10 are about the King of Tyre but verses 12-19 are actually about the devil. Let’s look at parts of those verses:



Ezekiel 28: 12-19, “…you were full of wisdom and perfect in beauty…you were in Eden, the Garden of God…every precious stone was your covering…you were the anointed cherub who guards…you were on the holy mountain of God…you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity was found in you…you were filled with violence and you sinned…I cast you as profane from the mountain of God…your heart was filled with pride because of your beauty…I cast you to the ground…I brought fire from your midst…it has consumed you…I turned you to ashes upon the earth…all who knew you among the people are astonished at you…you have become a horror…and shall be no more forever.”



So we can see from Ezekiel 28 that the devil will be destroyed and will also cease to exist. Rev 20: 10 is more figurative/poetic language when it says “tormented night and day forever and ever” which means to cease to exist forever as we have seen from other texts in this study.



One last passage that needs to be addressed briefly is the parable about “Lazarus and the Rich Man” in Luke 16: 19-31. Those who believe in ECT will point to this passage as proof of eternal conscious torment. This passage simply is not admissible to this debate.



The parable is describing the intermediate state between death and the final judgment. The focus of this paper is addressing whether people will be tormented consciously in hell forever after the final judgment.



Since what happens between death and the final judgment is a whole other topic, and would be a quite lengthy discussion, I will not be addressing it in this paper. Some views include: soul sleep for all people, consciousness for all people, consciousness for the righteous only, soul sleep for the wicked until the final judgment etc…



Conclusion



The Bible does not teach eternal conscious torment in the lake of fire (hell). It teaches that all enemies of God will be eternally destroyed at the judgment seat of Christ which is the final judgment for all humans, fallen angels and the devil himself.



The fact that abstract entities like “Death” and “Hades” (the grave), and the “beast” are also thrown into the lake of fire proves it is not a place of eternal conscious torment. The lake of fire is most likely symbolic of the “fire of God’s judgment/wrath” that consumes all His enemies. This is how fire is consistently used throughout the Bible. Hebrews 12: 29, “Our God is a consuming fire.”



The word translated “hell” in your English Bibles is the Greek word “Gehenna”. This was the garbage dump just south and west of Jerusalem that was constantly burning and always had worms/maggots devouring its refuse. Jesus used this imagery often in His teaching to demonstrate the fate of the wicked. People listening to Jesus would have known this meant to be consumed and not tormented forever.



Rev 20: 11-15 tells us about the final judgment that all men must face. All human beings that have ever lived will be resurrected and will stand before Christ and be judged by Him. All who are unbelievers will be cast into the “lake of fire” which is called the “second death” in verses 14 and 15. This is the death of the soul (that Jesus mentions in Matt 10: 28) which will be consumed by the fires of God’s judgment (lake of fire) and destroyed in His and the holy angels presence. It is probably not a literal place. Fire represents God’s irreversible and final judgment against someone as this paper has repeatedly demonstrated using the Scriptures.



There will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” when people are condemned to eternal destruction in the fire. The “lake of fire” is symbolism for the complete and utter destruction of all enemies of God who will cease to exist forever.

God bless you all and thank you for reading. (I know it was long)

That encourage to be wicked.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#56
This proves that Revelation 14: 10-11 cannot be used to refer to eternal conscious torment because in Isaiah 34: 9-10 it clearly refers to the eternal destruction of Edom.
Your specialty seems to be taking Scriptures out of context and promoting false doctrines. The above statement is so false it is not even worth rebuttal.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
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#57
Your specialty seems to be taking Scriptures out of context and promoting false doctrines. The above statement is so false it is not even worth rebuttal.
The book of Revelation has over 250 references to Old Testament symbolism. If you don't understand the Old Testament you won't understand Revelation. Rev 14: 10-11 is taken from Isaiah 34: 9-10. The "fire" and "smoke rising" and the "no rest" are used in many other Scriptures too. Not just Isaiah 34.

Jude 7, Isa 66:24, - Eternal Fire/Fire that is not quenched - It means eternal destruction throughout the Scriptures
Rev 19: 3, Isa 34: 10 - Smoke rises forever - It means eternal destruction throughout the Scriptures

Isa 34: 10, "fire not quenched day or night" - Rev 14: 10-11, "no rest day or night"
fire not quenched = no rest

What does fire represent in the Bible? It represents judgment from God that results in destruction all throughout the Bible.

What does "rest" represent in the Bible? Matt 11: 28-30, "...come to Me all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
Hebrews 4: 1-3, "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

Rest = Jesus/God. No rest = No Jesus/No God/fire not quenched (under the wrath of God).

Rev 14: 10-11, "...no rest day or night..." because they have been destroyed in LoF. You don't understand the symbolism in the Bible.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#58
The whole picture of the Bible is dicourage wickedness, it work by teach there will heavy punishment for wickedness. to me the doctrine of annihilism is to tell otherwise

If you do not believe in Jesus you not go to hell. You gone.

So if your problem is to heavy and no money, kill yourself or rob the bank if police kill you then you gone, solve your problem