Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,586
113
You keep telling me I'm following a false gospel.
Like what was preached by the gnostics of that time.
If I'm following a false gospel...am I still saved?

I'm not following a false gospel...
you just don't agree with me.

I hate doing this,,,but here we go:

“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they
disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)
Disobedience proves Unbelief --- Unbelief causes Disobedience

. . .

NOW THERE IS THE DEFINITIVE OF A DICHOTOMY IF I EVER SAW IT.

And where on GOD's green earth do you get the idea that those who Heard the Good News and did not respond to it, are REAL
Christians?

AND then you TOP OFF you FALSE GOSPEL with
Unbelief causes Disobedience.

I can prove that statement is FALSE with one VERSE:

1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers.
The one who does not love remains in death.

He remains in death, because he never was BORN AGAIN.


1544922803264.jpeg
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,632
113
You claim one's good works, or "fruits" prove if one is a true believer. And yet, unsaved people can do good works, even more so, than believers. Based on appearances, you would then have to declare them Christians because of all the good works they do.

Tell me, how many good works does one have to do to "prove" they are saved?

One a day, two the next?

If I gave the Salvation Army a dollar one year, two dollars the next year, three the next, would that indicate I am "growing in grace" and saved because of the yearly increase?

Many people point to their works as proof they're saved. Look at the example of such folks in Scripture (Matthew 7:22-23).
What about the workers of iniquity part in that verse there? Casting out devils is a good work, having good works didnt condemn them, nor were they workers of iniquity because they cast out devils or "trusted in their works".
They were workers of iniquity because.......... yup they were sinning like the devil. That was the problem there. Lack of repentance
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
What about the workers of iniquity part in that verse there? Casting out devils is a good work, having good works didnt condemn them, nor were they workers of iniquity because they cast out devils or "trusted in their works".
They were workers of iniquity because.......... yup they were sinning like the devil. That was the problem there. Lack of repentance
They were damned because they claimed the name of Jesus but were not born again. Because Christians still sin. You do, and I do. It is lack of belief in Christ that damns a person. Nothing more.

The gospel is simply this: By virtue of His death, burial, and resurrection, Jesus gives everlasting life to anyone who just believes in Him for it.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,586
113
So were you SAVED the very moment you believed? JUSTIFIED, SANCTIFIED, PERFECTED FOREVER, PURIFIED, GLORIFIED, RESURRECTED etc.?
God commands us to abide in Him. I trust in God also first and foremost. If you are trusting in God while living in rebellion to Him good luck. If you are trying to be faithful, your trust will not be misplaced.
. . .


Did you TWO answer my question, I cannot find it. HERE I WILL ASK IT AGAIN:

My TURN to ask a question:


What does BORN AGAIN mean to you, and HOW IS ONE BORN AGAIN?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,632
113
The gospel is simply this: By virtue of His death, burial, and resurrection, Jesus gives everlasting life to anyone who just believes in Him for it.
Sure.

Then we have ALOT of "filler" in the New Testament. All the talk about repentance, being a new creature in Christ, crucifying the flesh with its passions and desires. etc.. etc. Why do these verses even exist in your belief system? If the Apostles believed as you did, they would just said what you did above, and leave the rest unwritten, for it serves no real purpose
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,632
113

Lesson 6:
Canon Of Sacred Scripture

1. How many books does the entire Bible contain?
Seventy-two or seventy-four, depending on the way they are calculated
2. How do we know with certainty that the Bible contains only these books?
We know with certainty that the Bible contains only these books because the number is fixed by the "Canon of the Scriptures."
3. What is meant by the word "Canon"?
"Canon" is a Greek word that means a standard or rule.
4. What is meant by the "Canon of Scriptures"?
Originally, the Canon of Scriptures meant the qualifications required of a book before admittance into the number of recognized inspired writings; now it means the very collection of these books recognized as inspired.
5. Who decides which books belong to the Bible and which do not?
The Catholic Church decides.
6. By what authority does the Catholic Church make this decision?
By that of Christ, Who has made her the infallible teacher of faith and morals by both the oral and the written word.
7. What special mark was required of a book before its admittance into the collection known as the Bible?
The special mark required was clear proof of its inspiration.
8. By whom was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?
Pope Damasus, at the Roman Council of 382 A.D.
9. By what name are those books, whose authenticity was never questioned, known?
They are known as the Proto-Canonical Books.
10. Why are they so called?
They are so called because from the beginning they were recognized as Scriptural; the Greek prefix "proto" has the signification "from the first" or "originally," hence the use of the term "proto-canonical" to describe those books.
11. By what name are the disputed books known?
They are known as the Deutero-Canonical Books.
12. Why are they so called?
They are so called because their recognition as Scriptural came "afterwards"; the Greek word "Deutero" used as a prefix has the signification of "second" or "later."
13. Name the Deutero-Canonical Books.
Tobias, Wisdom, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Machabees (I & II), Judith, Esther (Ch X. v. 4 to end), Daniel (Ch. III, vs. 52-93). The Protestants call them "Apocryphal" Books.
14. Why did the Hebrews not admit these books as part of the Bible?
As a whole, the Hebrews stopped admitting these books after the second Century A.D., because they were written in languages other than Hebrew, or were of uncertain authorship.
15. Did the Hebrews ever formally rejected these books?
On the contrary, even if they did not accept these books as part of the Bible, they were always held in the greatest reverence by the Hebrews.
16. Under what guidance does the Church declare which books are canonical and which are not?
Under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
17. How do we know that she has this guidance?
We know that she has this guidance because Christ promised assistance to His Church until the end of times [Matthew 28:20].
18. Has the Church made use of human means in drawing up the Canon of Scriptures?
Yes; she investigated carefully whether the doctrine taught in the book was in harmony with Tradition and whether the book was of apostolic origin.​
That seems plausible. However in the 300s, the catholics werent into worshiping Mary yet. And the NT books were widely read by Christians already, without being officially canonized.. But thanks for proving your point
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
Sure.

Then we have ALOT of "filler" in the New Testament. All the talk about repentance, being a new creature in Christ, crucifying the flesh with its passions and desires. etc.. etc. Why do these verses even exist in your belief system? If the Apostles believed as you did, they would just said what you did above, and leave the rest unwritten, for it serves no real purpose
Is living the Christian life important? Of course it is! The difference in what we believe is simply that living a "holy" life has nothing to do with the retention of salvation. We are to be good ambassadors of Christ, and justify ourselves in the sight of men, but our good works do not justify us in the eyes of God. Only belief in Christ does that.

If more were required, then salvation is not actually a gift at all, but a wage to be earned through our continuous efforts.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
13,121
113
What about the workers of iniquity part in that verse there? Casting out devils is a good work, having good works didnt condemn them, nor were they workers of iniquity because they cast out devils or "trusted in their works".
They were workers of iniquity because.......... yup they were sinning like the devil. That was the problem there. Lack of repentance
Jesus tells of two men who went to the temple and prayed: one who boasted of the good he had done, and how others had done little or none; one who in shame had no answer to God but asking for mercy. one who came looking for approval, one who came looking for grace. the one who went home justified, Jesus says, is not the one who had works, but the one who didn't consider any of his works to be good - whether he had them or not.

the man who boasted says he had kept the law far better than the one who confessed his sin and looked to God for mercy.
what does this tells us about what exactly is "
iniquity" in God's eyes?


in re: why, scripture says "so that no one may boast"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,647
13,121
113
Sure.

Then we have ALOT of "filler" in the New Testament. All the talk about repentance, being a new creature in Christ, crucifying the flesh with its passions and desires. etc.. etc. Why do these verses even exist in your belief system? If the Apostles believed as you did, they would just said what you did above, and leave the rest unwritten, for it serves no real purpose
i like to think of it like "how to potty train your pet corpse" lol - to act as befits who we really are, in keeping with the eternally living spirit He gave us, rather than antithetical to it.

or as Peter put it, seeing that the whole universe is going to dissolve in unimaginable heat, what manner of men ought we to be? men who care about things that will endure eternally! those aren't covetous people, or petty, or people chasing their lusts looking for temporal pleasure.

it's what's wise vs. what's foolish
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
What about the workers of iniquity part in that verse there? Casting out devils is a good work, having good works didnt condemn them, nor were they workers of iniquity because they cast out devils or "trusted in their works".
They were workers of iniquity because.......... yup they were sinning like the devil. That was the problem there. Lack of repentance
They were workers of iniquity because they were LOST and never saved to begin with....why is it so difficult to understand that ALL MEN NOT SAVED ARE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL.....and their belief....

Faith <--Lord Lord
plus
Works <<-Have we not done

Galatians 1 and 3

Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched thee....Having begun in the SPIRIT (Faith) are you now made COMPLETE BY THE FLESH (Works)

The same crap Cain offered and HE KNEW AND TALKED WITH THE LORD PERSONALLY AND YET OFFERED HIS WORKS AND EXPECTED to be ACCEPTED but was NOT AND IDENTIFIED as a false teacher.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Oy vey. Thats a long book.

Am I in Yeshiva?
What is Yeshiva?
Yeshiva (/jəˈʃiːvə/; Hebrew: ישיבה‬, lit. "sitting"; pl. ישיבות‬, yeshivot or yeshivos) is a Jewish institution that focuses on the study of traditional religious texts, primarily the Talmud and the Torah.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Those are the unsaved. Christians are not appointed to wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)
Are Ananias and Saphira saved or unsaved? Does scriptures say that no one will wander or turn away from the FAITH? If anyone wander or turn away from the FAITH which you CLAIM can ALONE save and DENY God, would that person still be saved?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Are Ananias and Saphira saved or unsaved? Does scriptures say that no one will wander or turn away from the FAITH? If anyone wander or turn away from the FAITH which you CLAIM can ALONE save and DENY God, would that person still be saved?
What Jesus do you follow....not the one of the bible...Because the one of the bible starts, finishes and completes the work of faith in those that believe and then if they do not abide faithful he remains faithful to his promise to start, finish and complete the work....

It must be tragic to follow such a weak, inept entity that does not keep his promise and or finish what he said he would finish!!
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
You claim one's good works, or "fruits" prove if one is a true believer.
Not I but Christ....
As our Lord and Savior was speaking of false prophets he broadened the sphere to incorporate all who profess him yet were producing ill fruit; iniquity.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:20-23 KJV)




And yet, unsaved people can do good works, even more so, than believers.
Obviously but Not in Christ nor are they speaking of Christ to further HIS Kingdom.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,037
13,041
113
58
Yep....faith is what saves a man...NOTHING ADDED!
Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (y)
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.
Whose faith?
Rom_3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

It should actually look something like these....

for the showing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus.
(Rom 3:26 LITV-TSP)
toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus."
(Rom 3:26 CLV)

The word translated "in" in the clause "believe in" is ek in the Greek. Here is a citation from Mickelson's Strong's enhanced.
G1537 ἐκ ek (ek) (or ex ex) prep.
1. from (the point whence action or motion proceeds)
2. out (of place, time, or cause)

Of not in. Couple that with this.

Even the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, into all, and upon all who are believing, for there is no distinction,
(Rom 3:22)