Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[preacher4truth]

So are you saying... That if i were to preach the gospel.... It will be ineffective if 100% of the audience consisted of the non elect. You are saying the gospel is not for the non elect people...? Are you saying we need to preach the gospel to selected few?

Nope, I've never suggested anything about a selected few. This is always brought up in order to offer some derogation on those who believe the Biblical doctrine of election, predestination, and foreknowing.

Throughout history there have been missionaries who have preached the Gospel and none believed. Paul also preached to many who did not believe the Gospel at all. Your scenario then is not hypothesis only, it is tangible. So yes, one can preach and there be not one elect among them. That's God's business, not mine.

 

[Milee777]

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Grace is a free gift from God. Too many think they have to earn grace. This is a big stumbling block for many. They try to do good works not understanding how wrong they are.

Yeah. The just shall live by faith. I know that there ain't any good in me... And any good flows through me only by leaning on Him... havin faith. Trying myself to be good without faith had made me stumble and broke me... i can't do anything without Him. I mean... I need Him. He is Love.

 

[Endoscopy]

Nope, I've never suggested anything about a selected few. This is always brought up in order to offer some derogation on those who believe the Biblical doctrine of election, predestination, and foreknowing.

Throughout history there have been missionaries who have preached the Gospel and none believed. Paul also preached to many who did not believe the Gospel at all. Your scenario then is not hypothesis only, it is tangible. So yes, one can preach and there be not one elect among them. That's God's business, not mine.

I totally agree. Our job is to deliver the gospel message and the rest is up to God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to agree upon the guilt feeling.. Its a huge burden of guilt... like as though millions are slipping through our hands while we still struggle to understand this whole thing... And every passing day.. brings guilt.... every single death... the statistical analysis of the rate of death, no. of deaths.... it makes everything look hopeless.

I see it different.

Look at Isreal when they left Egypt. They witnessed first hadn all the miracles. Yet cotinued to reject God.
Look At Israel in Jesus day, They saw ALL the signs, yet they rejected him.
Many people will see Christ on judgment day and admit all the signs given to them. Including the sins of changed lives, of people lie us and giving them the word. That they two had all they needed to recieve christ yet decided to say no.

We can not worry or feel gulty because of someones rejection. Not to mention. If God knows a person WILL recieve him, He will do all it takes. Many times we may just plant the seed. Someone else or some other event may get them to see..

We have to rely on Christ and God. That we plant the seed and trust God to water, but also knowing, the seed may never produce fruit..

 

[Milee777]

Throughout history there have been missionaries who have preached the Gospel and none believed. Paul also preached to many who did not believe the Gospel at all. Your scenario then is not hypothesis only, it is tangible. So yes, one can preach and there be not one elect among them. That's God's business, not mine.[/QUOTE]
Hmm.. Alright. But God loves everyone.

Nope, I've never suggested anything about a selected few. This is always brought up in order to offer some derogation on those who believe the Biblical doctrine of election, predestination, and foreknowing.

Throughout history there have been missionaries who have preached the Gospel and none believed. Paul also preached to many who did not believe the Gospel at all. Your scenario then is not hypothesis only, it is tangible. So yes, one can preach and there be not one elect among them. That's God's business, not mine.

Alright.

 

[Milee777]

I see it different.

Look at Isreal when they left Egypt. They witnessed first hadn all the miracles. Yet cotinued to reject God.
Look At Israel in Jesus day, They saw ALL the signs, yet they rejected him.
Many people will see Christ on judgment day and admit all the signs given to them. Including the sins of changed lives, of people lie us and giving them the word. That they two had all they needed to recieve christ yet decided to say no.

We can not worry or feel gulty because of someones rejection. Not to mention. If God knows a person WILL recieve him, He will do all it takes. Many times we may just plant the seed. Someone else or some other event may get them to see..

We have to rely on Christ and God. That we plant the seed and trust God to water, but also knowing, the seed may never produce fruit..

Okay... But somewhere in the Scriptures, it is written that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented... You said if God knows a person will accept Him, He will do all it takes.

 

[garee]

What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..

Salvation in respect to a particular all is... for as many as the father gave to the son they alone will come. No man can come unless the Father draws them .

The word many defines the elect.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 6:56 And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

 

[Milee777]

I see it different.

Look at Isreal when they left Egypt. They witnessed first hadn all the miracles. Yet cotinued to reject God.
Look At Israel in Jesus day, They saw ALL the signs, yet they rejected him.
Many people will see Christ on judgment day and admit all the signs given to them. Including the sins of changed lives, of people lie us and giving them the word. That they two had all they needed to recieve christ yet decided to say no.

We can not worry or feel gulty because of someones rejection. Not to mention. If God knows a person WILL recieve him, He will do all it takes. Many times we may just plant the seed. Someone else or some other event may get them to see..

We have to rely on Christ and God. That we plant the seed and trust God to water, but also knowing, the seed may never produce fruit..

But its comforting... If i dont have to feel guilty...2 of my batchmates, one a Hindu, another a Muslim died in a bike crash. I felt an urgency within me then... about people's eternity... people can leave at any moment.. I felt a pressure within me... My life must reflect Christ in me i thought but.. I looked at how miserable i was... I mean... more than focusing on studies.. My mind drifted upon the next person who would die without the gospel. Got me more concerned about eternity than the present moment and this life... and my studies... Like i wanted to throw this burden at God Himself... I cannot handle it. And now am trying to trust Him with this... This huge thing... Am trying to rely on Him... And thats where am struggling within. Am unable to give this burden to God.. Unable to trust that He would handle this wisely... Because of a lot of Scriptural doubts... I know its wrong but am trying to tell Him that i don't agree with His plan... of the elect... I know am not better than Him... but still at times i doubt His love when i see Him selecting some people...am trying to search out His heart behind this. Am trying to make sure He isn't playing a joke on humanity and laughing backstage. If He is doing that... Then let Him tell me that... I also will laugh at my own misery.

 

[Milee777]

But its comforting... If i dont have to feel guilty...2 of my batchmates, one a Hindu, another a Muslim died in a bike crash. I felt an urgency within me then... about people's eternity... people can leave at any moment.. I felt a pressure within me... My life must reflect Christ in me i thought but.. I looked at how miserable i was... I mean... more than focusing on studies.. My mind drifted upon the next person who would die without the gospel. Got me more concerned about eternity than the present moment and this life... and my studies... Like i wanted to throw this burden at God Himself... I cannot handle it. And now am trying to trust Him with this... This huge thing... Am trying to rely on Him... And thats where am struggling within. Am unable to give this burden to God.. Unable to trust that He would handle this wisely... Because of a lot of Scriptural doubts... I know its wrong but am trying to tell Him that i don't agree with His plan... of the elect... I know am not better than Him... but still at times i doubt His love when i see Him selecting some people...am trying to search out His heart behind this. Am trying to make sure He isn't playing a joke on humanity and laughing backstage. If He is doing that... Then let Him tell me that... I also will laugh at my own misery.

Nahh... God is Love. I can't say that He would be laughing. I know He isn't. He is very loving. am srry i said that. God is good all the time. Though He slay me, yet will i trust in Him.

 

[Milee777]

Nahh... God is Love. I can't say that He would be laughing. I know He isn't. He is very loving. am srry i said that. God is good all the time. Though He slay me, yet will i trust in Him.

But before He does, i would like to talk over a cup of coffee.. But depends whether He would accept that offer.

 

[preacher4truth]

Nahh... God is Love. I can't say that He would be laughing. I know He isn't. He is very loving. am srry i said that. God is good all the time. Though He slay me, yet will i trust in Him.

Thank God he chose to save some! 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

 

[Macabeus]

In my careful investigation of both Calvinism and Arminianism I have found both to be very Biblical. Here is what I found on both. Notice at the bottom there is a Biblical Defense of both. Refute them if you can. I can't!!

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

I did not mean that both systems are unbiblical. Both systems contain much truth. My position lies closest to Classical Arminianism, but I love to read and listen to Calvinist because they have much to offer.

Both sides seem to misrepresent the other in debate

There are many different types of Arminians, and different kinds of Calvinist. Some on both sides go way too far.

The question in the OP is on election and predestination. Calvinists believe in unconditional election, that God chose His Elect, and that choice was not based on anything in them or anything they do, including faith and obedience to the Gospel. In choosing the elect, He passed over the reprobate, which to me means double predestination, albeit not equal ultimacy. So the elect are created for Glory and the reprobate are created for destruction.

I believe in predestination, but have trouble with the concept of double predestination. God could justly do it that way, but that's not what I see in the scriptures

Arminians believe that election is based on foreseen faith. Some describe it as God looking down the corridors of time and choosing those He foresees will believe. I think this is an oversimplification of election, because Paul said that God does not choose based on anything in us or anything we do

I even was part of a denomination that had in it's treatise that those who believe become God's elect. Yet God chose us not even before we believed, He chose us before He created the Kosmos

Then that leads some into believing in Corporate election.

The answer, I think, lies in the immutability of God. God did not elect in time, God did not at some point decide to elect who He elect, He did not out of the blue decide to create, allow the fall, send His Son to save, etc. These are eternal, immutable, council's.

We all just struggle to wrap our heads around things that are revealed to us, but may be above us being able to fully comprehend. We just need to believe what the Word says.

I don't fully understand the Trinity or the hypostatic union, but I believe, and I see, though dimly. One day I will see clearly

 

[Milee777]

Jeremiah 30
15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

Ohh. But... mmm.. Okay. Alright. Then it means the non elect has commited many sins and thats the reason of his damnation right?..
Well, i know there are multitudes of wrong stuff i have done... you see. I try not to do the wrong stuff but often fail.
But the non elect do the wrong stuff because they were not elected.. Isnt it ? . Because they were predestined not to believe... predestined not to have their eyes opened. Because God chose not to show the light of the gospel to them to tranform them?...Or... u are saying... the non elect could have done the right stuff by himself... but when given a choice, he chose sin. And the multitude of his sins lead him to the damnation.
Is anybody getting what am saying? Call me a person full of pride...call me anything... Its okay. But are u getting what am saying.
I mean... In Ezekiel.. God says... Turn.. Turn from ur ways.. Somewhere. If he has already pre elected... Why is he bothering His vocal cords by saying turn turn!.. Who is He saying it to..? The elect or non elect. Hopefully the elect, because the non elect aint gonna listen...aint it?

 

[Milee777]

Aaaaaaahh! Simplify this a little. God wants good for humanity? God wants... peace on earth? But someone would argue using a Scripture.. I know which Scripture.
Does God want us to live happily on earth? YES OR NO?.. IF YES.. GIVE SCRIPTURE, IF NO, GIVE SCRIPTURE.
OFCOURSE... IT MUST BE YES. Otherwise why the 2nd commandment. WHAT DOES HE ULTIMATELY WANT.... That love flourishes on earth...2nd commandment.... Or for His glory... through both vessel of grace and vessel of wrath . Uhhh. Do i need medications.. Am i growing insane.
Like a little child... Can i believe... Good deserves good, bad deserves bad. Though i know am not good... but pursuing goodness by faith in Jesus because He is Good... And He is Love and the source of all good things and all the love... As a child it seemed easier to love... Donno why... Maybe i was dropped frm heaven thats why... As i grew in this world.. It became easier to hate... Donno why.. Because of the amount of time i was spending here on earth... The fallen world.
God will never justify the wicked... Ain't it. And even if am the wicked one... I would agree on that thing. I will beg for mercy... i do not deserve His kingdom. I know i don't. I wanna live this life pleasing Him. It seems faith pleases Him. Let me have faith then...

 

[Milee777]

Dear God,
Be happy... Let Your will alone be done. If You want Your glory... fine. Just keep smiling. If i chose darkness... dont be upset... I hope u are still happy. Just don't worry about me... when am in darkness for my wrongs.. do not forsake me... dont let me have a hardened heart... Help me to just... accept it... And know that there's no dissapointment on Your face, that what You wanted has occurred. Let me not be angry at You... I know how some would gnash... which means they are terribly angry. Well, whatevr it is... hold my heart... And whatever ur will is... For Your own glory... involving me...let it happen. Just take this burden off my shoulders. You have created this universe. I love Your creation... The different seasons. The coolness of the mornings... ur tenderness is seen when i see the rain.... The flowers.... Ur intentions seem good about this world. Well... Some do talk about ur wrath... But i read u are slow to anger. I mean something must be really messed up to make u that angry... Some say u do it for Your glory..?.. Like u chose some vessel of wrath.. Its hard to believe sometimes u know. But.. I know u wont harm a righteous person...only the wicked... I mean for eternity. In this life u may allow calamities to both the good and bad. Well... If u have made me in Your image.. And i have these doubts.. There must be an answer to all my questions. One Scripture says there is no wisdom against the Lord... So the Truth will make us realise u were good all the while. I mean... Yea. It must be true. The election of grace... hmm. It sounds very horrifying....many will disagree with me. Am scared. Am afraid of You when it comes to You involving Yourself in our choices. But when i do wrong things... I know i chose to do it. Only that... I lack some thing in me when i do it which if You provide... i may overcome it... Love.. For You... For this world. Am confused but aren't You the author of peace and not of confusion. I know my past... But i can't see my future... help me live in the present because if i keep wondering what u have in future for me.. I donno whether i would enjoy my present...and living this present life like this... May one day bring me just like this into the future and i would look at this present which would be past then with regrets... I donno... I just donno. Just take this burden off of me.. Good and bad.. Thing. Don't give me a choice... Am inclined towards the wrong one. Yea... In some way i like election.. In that it wont depend on me but on You... And i can trust You but not myself. Yea... You take over. Be the driver.. Am fed up.. I have droven to wrong places... Just take over. You have made me for Yourself and i am restless until i rest in You.
From,
A fallen person (You know my name... And someone calculated the no. of hairs on my head.. You must be knowing me pretty well),
Earth

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I have to agree upon the guilt feeling.. Its a huge burden of guilt... like as though millions are slipping through our hands while we still struggle to understand this whole thing... And every passing day.. brings guilt.... every single death... the statistical analysis of the rate of death, no. of deaths.... it makes everything look hopeless.

If you want to continue to feel hopeless, just keep listening to those that are telling you all of the requirements that they say God requires of you to be saved eternally. They will tell you that even if God wants to save you eternally that he can't unless you agree to let him, which does away with God's grace, which is a free gift and not depending upon man's approval.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you want to continue to feel hopeless, just keep listening to those that are telling you all of the requirements that they say God requires of you to be saved eternally. They will tell you that even if God wants to save you eternally that he can't unless you agree to let him, which does away with God's grace, which is a free gift and not depending upon man's approval.

The above isn't remotely true, lol! Pure straw man. Arminianism believes that, but that's not the true Gospel. But then again neither is yours. The Gospel is God's means of eternal salvation.

 

[NayborBear]

I did not mean that both systems are unbiblical. Both systems contain much truth. My position lies closest to Classical Arminianism, but I love to read and listen to Calvinist because they have much to offer.

Both sides seem to misrepresent the other in debate

There are many different types of Arminians, and different kinds of Calvinist. Some on both sides go way too far.

The question in the OP is on election and predestination. Calvinists believe in unconditional election, that God chose His Elect, and that choice was not based on anything in them or anything they do, including faith and obedience to the Gospel. In choosing the elect, He passed over the reprobate, which to me means double predestination, albeit not equal ultimacy. So the elect are created for Glory and the reprobate are created for destruction.

I believe in predestination, but have trouble with the concept of double predestination. God could justly do it that way, but that's not what I see in the scriptures

Arminians believe that election is based on foreseen faith. Some describe it as God looking down the corridors of time and choosing those He foresees will believe. I think this is an oversimplification of election, because Paul said that God does not choose based on anything in us or anything we do

I even was part of a denomination that had in it's treatise that those who believe become God's elect. Yet God chose us not even before we believed, He chose us before He created the Kosmos

Then that leads some into believing in Corporate election.

The answer, I think, lies in the immutability of God. God did not elect in time, God did not at some point decide to elect who He elect, He did not out of the blue decide to create, allow the fall, send His Son to save, etc. These are eternal, immutable, council's.

We all just struggle to wrap our heads around things that are revealed to us, but may be above us being able to fully comprehend. We just need to believe what the Word says.

I don't fully understand the Trinity or the hypostatic union, but I believe, and I see, though dimly. One day I will see clearly

If you can "look" at election as a "kind" of reincarnation, albeit, from a former earth/heaven age? That age, when the dragon "swept" a third of the "stars" of heaven with his tale (tail)? Consider the 2/3rds that were not swept by his tail (tale).
And, then, those who were dwelling on earth at that time? Did not join in on the attempted "overthrow", but rather, stood WITH God, and fought against the dragon, and its cohorts.

 

[Milee777]

If you can "look" at election as a "kind" of reincarnation, albeit, from a former earth/heaven age? That age, when the dragon "swept" a third of the "stars" of heaven with his tale (tail)? Consider the 2/3rds that were not swept by his tail (tale).
And, then, those who were dwelling on earth at that time? Did not join in on the attempted "overthrow", but rather, stood WITH God, and fought against the dragon, and its cohorts.

Ohh. References..?

 

[NayborBear]

Ohh. But... mmm.. Okay. Alright. Then it means the non elect has commited many sins and thats the reason of his damnation right?..
Well, i know there are multitudes of wrong stuff i have done... you see. I try not to do the wrong stuff but often fail.
But the non elect do the wrong stuff because they were not elected.. Isnt it ? . Because they were predestined not to believe... predestined not to have their eyes opened. Because God chose not to show the light of the gospel to them to tranform them?...Or... u are saying... the non elect could have done the right stuff by himself... but when given a choice, he chose sin. And the multitude of his sins lead him to the damnation.
Is anybody getting what am saying? Call me a person full of pride...call me anything... Its okay. But are u getting what am saying.
I mean... In Ezekiel.. God says... Turn.. Turn from ur ways.. Somewhere. If he has already pre elected... Why is he bothering His vocal cords by saying turn turn!.. Who is He saying it to..? The elect or non elect. Hopefully the elect, because the non elect aint gonna listen...aint it?

There's a difference from doing stuff, one thinks is wrong, but actually isn't! It may not be profitable! But, it may not be wrong! Of course, I have no idea to what "stuff", you are referring to.

Kinda sounds like the "god/spirit of legalism", is spinning you around in circles so fast, you have gotten yourself rather "dizzy!"

The "observation" I'm sensing from your postings, is that something is getting through to ya enough, in the getting you to inquire more deeply into it!

And, that you are thinking you are invincible.....til you're not! Oh yeah! Been there myself! 'Cept mine was invisible (speeding down the highways, cuz the cops couldn't see me).....til I wasn't!