Not By Works
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Exactly.....same here.......!
Paul was clear....
Therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED (before God) by FAITH, WITHOUT THE WORKS/DEEDS of the law.
End of story.....James does not turn around a teach that we are justified before God by works.....the audience is MEN and contradiction is between a mere belief in GOD which the Jews have to this very day and SAVING FAITH which can be seen before MEN by our actions, deeds and or works!!!!!
Paul was clear....
Therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED (before God) by FAITH, WITHOUT THE WORKS/DEEDS of the law.
End of story.....James does not turn around a teach that we are justified before God by works.....the audience is MEN and contradiction is between a mere belief in GOD which the Jews have to this very day and SAVING FAITH which can be seen before MEN by our actions, deeds and or works!!!!!
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Amen.....It is all JESUS or it is fraudent.....
He begins faith in us
He finishes faith in us
He completes faith in us
He saves us to the uttermost
He keeps us by his power through above faith
He gives us the irrevocable gift of eternal life
He remains faithful to the above even if we lose heart or faith
He cannot deny his blood and righteousness that has been put to our account
He cannot deny that we are justified
He begins faith in us
He finishes faith in us
He completes faith in us
He saves us to the uttermost
He keeps us by his power through above faith
He gives us the irrevocable gift of eternal life
He remains faithful to the above even if we lose heart or faith
He cannot deny his blood and righteousness that has been put to our account
He cannot deny that we are justified
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It is utterly amazing....how many so called believers will devalue Christ, his power, his promises and his saving grace while interjecting self and for even one second believing they must do something or even have the ability to keep themselves saved by action and or deed........Christ must look down in utter disgust at those who say I HELPED JESUS save myself AND OR I help keep myself saved....
Exactly what the "plenteous in number" peddle....a claim of faith and expecting to enter based upon self reliance and works in the name of Jesus.......!!!
Exactly what the "plenteous in number" peddle....a claim of faith and expecting to enter based upon self reliance and works in the name of Jesus.......!!!
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1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity, then he is nothing.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The love of money is the root of all evil because it neglects the poor and needy, and anybody that goes by their wants not caring about the poor and needy falls victim to it, and have erred from the faith.
So Paul said their faith is irrelevant without charity.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James points out charity by saying help the poor and needy, the same as Paul said, and James said their faith is irrelevant without charity.
So all these years people have been fighting between Paul and James concerning which is the right viewpoint, and Paul and James were saying the same thing.
Paul said have works of love, or no faith, and James said have works of love, or no faith, and they argue between the two when there is no arguing about it.
Which this is absurd that people cannot see that Paul and James are saying the same thing, but arguing between the two people.
Which goes to show you how there are many people that do not understand what the Bible is saying.
And why would Paul and James say two different things if they are both book writers of the Bible, but they would surely have to harmonize, but many people do not try to find the harmony, but argue with each other.
But I have fallen victim to it too when I first became a Christian, so I cannot be harsh about it, but when I started reading the Bible I was not adhering to what they said if it went against the Bible that plainly stated against them, but adhered to the Bible, but denominations have a lot of influence on people as they lay a blueprint out for them of what they believe the Bible states, and many go by that without question.
They got them arguing over Paul and James, and they say the same thing, among other things they got them arguing about.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
John is also a witness saying the same thing as Paul and James.
Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity, then he is nothing.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The love of money is the root of all evil because it neglects the poor and needy, and anybody that goes by their wants not caring about the poor and needy falls victim to it, and have erred from the faith.
So Paul said their faith is irrelevant without charity.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James points out charity by saying help the poor and needy, the same as Paul said, and James said their faith is irrelevant without charity.
So all these years people have been fighting between Paul and James concerning which is the right viewpoint, and Paul and James were saying the same thing.
Paul said have works of love, or no faith, and James said have works of love, or no faith, and they argue between the two when there is no arguing about it.
Which this is absurd that people cannot see that Paul and James are saying the same thing, but arguing between the two people.
Which goes to show you how there are many people that do not understand what the Bible is saying.
And why would Paul and James say two different things if they are both book writers of the Bible, but they would surely have to harmonize, but many people do not try to find the harmony, but argue with each other.
But I have fallen victim to it too when I first became a Christian, so I cannot be harsh about it, but when I started reading the Bible I was not adhering to what they said if it went against the Bible that plainly stated against them, but adhered to the Bible, but denominations have a lot of influence on people as they lay a blueprint out for them of what they believe the Bible states, and many go by that without question.
They got them arguing over Paul and James, and they say the same thing, among other things they got them arguing about.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
John is also a witness saying the same thing as Paul and James.
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Paul and James are not saying the same thing, and like normal, you peddle deceit to promote your self saving works based false gospel!
Paul speaks to being justified before God by faith ALONE
James speaks to the above faith being seen and justifed before men
Get your facts straight and quit leading people astray!
Paul speaks to being justified before God by faith ALONE
James speaks to the above faith being seen and justifed before men
Get your facts straight and quit leading people astray!
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The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.
These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)
...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13
...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived? We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:18-19
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)
...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13
...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived? We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Jude 1:18-19
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”... Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
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Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, yet Paul is certainly stressing the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus acts of charity/works. Paul is not saying that faith in Christ is insufficient to save or that we are saved based on the merits of producing acts of charity/works, yet Paul explained that love is the greater quality between faith, hope and love because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his saints are and do. We won't need faith and hope in eternity in the presence of the Lord.
Yet Paul did not say that we are saved through faith + charity/works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works (giving the necessities to a brother or sister who lacks clothing and food as an example of a work) is dead. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
A faith that results in no charity at all is no faith at all.
When Paul and James write about faith, they're not contradicting each other, but are looking at faith from different perspectives. Paul is looking a faith from from the divine perspective. God knows the heart of people and the quality of a person's faith without having to see the results. James, on the other hand, is looking at faith from the from human perspective. We cannot see the heart, as God can, but we can see the results in the life of a person who says-claims to have faith. Genuine faith will prove its profession by good works. All genuine believers are fruitful, though not all are equally fruitful.
And there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
Yet Paul did not say that we are saved through faith + charity/works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works (giving the necessities to a brother or sister who lacks clothing and food as an example of a work) is dead. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
A faith that results in no charity at all is no faith at all.
When Paul and James write about faith, they're not contradicting each other, but are looking at faith from different perspectives. Paul is looking a faith from from the divine perspective. God knows the heart of people and the quality of a person's faith without having to see the results. James, on the other hand, is looking at faith from the from human perspective. We cannot see the heart, as God can, but we can see the results in the life of a person who says-claims to have faith. Genuine faith will prove its profession by good works. All genuine believers are fruitful, though not all are equally fruitful.
And there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
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Okay, but despite all the VERSES, I am having Trouble seeing your MOTIVE for your WORKS.
Revelation 2:23 (ESV)
23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
SO, is your MOTIVE for doing what He says, to improve or complete your SALVATION?
Or, is the MOTIVE Purely BECAUSE you LOVE HIM, and also the Brethren, because HE SAVED YOU IN THE BEGINNING of your FAITH?
I suspect I know, but I really want to make sure.
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Hi mailmandan, and a very happy and blessed "New Year", if I recall correctly this will put you oh so much closer on the path to becoming a "Retiree"
Can you just make one of your statements clear where you say, "We won't need faith and hope in eternity." I reckon the reality of "hope" has been fulfilled and not necessary because now all of God's promises are now a reality; however has our faith also been fulfilled and therefore not necessary.
I've never heard this idea of "hope and faith", in eternity, "are no longer necessary."? I'm sure it is a simple truth that I am missing and it would be helpful to me and maybe others if you could make the reality of "hope and faith", "no longer necessary."
These verses that I posted are a possible answer to my questions about faith not being necessary in eternity. I'm not disagreeing with you just looking for a little bit of clarity, thank you.
Proverbs14:32
The wicked man is thrown down by his own sin, but the righteous man has a refuge when he dies.
John 12:26
If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord.
Can you just make one of your statements clear where you say, "We won't need faith and hope in eternity." I reckon the reality of "hope" has been fulfilled and not necessary because now all of God's promises are now a reality; however has our faith also been fulfilled and therefore not necessary.
I've never heard this idea of "hope and faith", in eternity, "are no longer necessary."? I'm sure it is a simple truth that I am missing and it would be helpful to me and maybe others if you could make the reality of "hope and faith", "no longer necessary."
These verses that I posted are a possible answer to my questions about faith not being necessary in eternity. I'm not disagreeing with you just looking for a little bit of clarity, thank you.
Proverbs14:32
The wicked man is thrown down by his own sin, but the righteous man has a refuge when he dies.
John 12:26
If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord.
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You summed it up when you said hope has now been fulfilled because all of God’s promises are now a reality.
In regards to faith, in Hebrews 11:1, we read that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Who hopes for what he already see’s and has?
1 Corinthians 13:12 - now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
In regards to faith, in Hebrews 11:1, we read that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Who hopes for what he already see’s and has?
1 Corinthians 13:12 - now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
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