Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#401
#401
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
That is my position as well, my friend. I believe that regeneration and conversion, though not the same thing, happen together.
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I am still trying to figure this out.

One goes from not having the ability to understand God. Not seeking for God. Hating God, and in total rebellion. To in one micro second being born again, have the ability to understand (but no time to learn) seeking for God, loving God and on their knees asking God for mercy in faith which makes them justified.

Thats alot of stuff happening in one mocro second.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#402
Sep 8, 2018
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#402
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Check out the tense of the word "is" born of God. https://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#403
Sep 8, 2018
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#403
preacher4truth said:
This is completely true, God uses the means of his Gospel to accomplish this. Yet we have one here that denies this and has those who are lost on their way to heaven that do not need to hear the Gospel, don't need to even know or believe in Christ, or God, yet they're heaven bound. If any person according to him simply believes in anything spiritual, it means he's regenerate, on his way to heaven. The gospel to him is that God only gives us a little deliverance here in the world if we believe in it.

God bless!
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Primitive Baptist bible translation from the Codex Decepticus:

"For whosoever believeth in the happy hunting grounds shall be saved"
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#404
Sep 8, 2018
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#404
Hevosmies said:
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Check out the tense of the word "is" born of God. https://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm
Click to expand...
If the greek is correct there, did I understand correctly that man is BORN AGAIN before they believe?
That being born again is the CAUSE for the belief? They believe BECAUSE born again?

Anyone see my point there? Not saying its like that, just what I saw from the verb tense there. NOT CLAIMING TO BE A GREEK EXPERT HERE.
But could someone in the know correct me on that.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#405
#405
Is born is in the perfect tense. It means it is a completed action. When did the action start? “Whoever believes”Not before. Not after. At that moment
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#406
Sep 8, 2018
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#406
eternally-gratefull said:
Is born is in the perfect tense. It means it is a completed action. When did the action start? “Whoever believes”Not before. Not after. At that moment
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Oh. Mine said its in present tense.

Well I stand corrected.

I need to stay away from the greek and stick with the bible translation in my native language + KJV. The languages I can actually read. :D

Sorry fellas.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#407
#407
Hevosmies said:
Oh. Mine said its in present tense.

Well I stand corrected.

I need to stay away from the greek and stick with the bible translation in my native language + KJV. The languages I can actually read. :D

Sorry fellas.
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Try looking up the word Born.. When I clicked on the word “Is” EIMI did not even show up, “IS Born” came up as one word.

Gegennetia - is born. - verb, perfect, passive, indicative, third person, singular

Its ok. I have a prety indepth bible study program “Logos 7” which has all kinds of greek and hebrew texts and commentaries and other stuff in computer form.. When you look up a bible verse (I use the NKJV) you can actually click on a word. And it gives you all the information Of the word in question. Then you can click a tab and it takes you to all the lexicons and dictionaries in your library.

It has been a blessing, It allows me to look up and test what others are saying.. and also helps take care of alot of the issues of appearant contradixtions I have found. And other words which due to the english language has issues in and of itself
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#408
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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#408
eternally-gratefull said:
Try looking up the word Born.. When I clicked on the word “Is” EIMI did not even show up, “IS Born” came up as one word.

Gegennetia - is born. - verb, perfect, passive, indicative, third person, singular

Its ok. I have a prety indepth bible study program “Logos 7” which has all kinds of greek and hebrew texts and commentaries and other stuff in computer form.. When you look up a bible verse (I use the NKJV) you can actually click on a word. And it gives you all the information Of the word in question. Then you can click a tab and it takes you to all the lexicons and dictionaries in your library.

It has been a blessing, It allows me to look up and test what others are saying.. and also helps take care of alot of the issues of appearant contradixtions I have found. And other words which due to the english language has issues in and of itself
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Is this bible study program free? I have to look it up.

Could you be so kind as to show me one appareant contradiction that it helps to take care of? Would be nice.

I already know the word baptism isnt really an english word, its a transliteration more than a translation. But I believe baptism means IMMERSE or DIP, thats how the orthodox christians understood it. But in the septuagint its also used of sprinkling a couple of times some argue.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#409
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
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#409
Hevosmies said:
Is this bible study program free? I have to look it up.

Could you be so kind as to show me one appareant contradiction that it helps to take care of? Would be nice.

I already know the word baptism isnt really an english word, its a transliteration more than a translation. But I believe baptism means IMMERSE or DIP, thats how the orthodox christians understood it. But in the septuagint its also used of sprinkling a couple of times some argue.
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Here is a free Bible study program that gives you the ability to add tons of free commentary, dictionaries &c:

https://www.e-sword.net

You can add free books, commentary &c to the library of esword from here:

http://www.biblesupport.com

Logos has a free version but adding books is expensive.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#410
#410
Hevosmies said:
Is this bible study program free? I have to look it up.

Could you be so kind as to show me one appareant contradiction that it helps to take care of? Would be nice.

I already know the word baptism isnt really an english word, its a transliteration more than a translation. But I believe baptism means IMMERSE or DIP, thats how the orthodox christians understood it. But in the septuagint its also used of sprinkling a couple of times some argue.
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No, it costs a few hundred dollars. I started with it before it became logos. And just upgraded every so often. One nice thing about it, Is you can buy induvidual books seperately and add it to your library, and it automatically is shown on any “look up”. I currently am saving for BDAG/HALOT which supposedly is one of the best language sources out there (A 5 book series)

I can not remember any contradictions I have found to be resolved at those moment, I just remember some were. Baptise is even more involved that that. Dip is from the greek “Bapto” Where Baptize is from the greek “Baptizo”, Sprinkle is another word altogether

What I found interesting is in ancient Greek, one who baptizes is seen quite differently than we see today. A baptizer or baptist was a person who worked in a dye shop, his job was to dye clothing. The process by which the cloth was placed into the solution in order to change its appearance was called baptizmo (baptism)

Oh I just remembered one contradiction I finally satisfied. Acts 2. Repent and be baptized. Why did scripture here say we had to repent AND be baptised, but in most other, it just says repent. Well when you look it up in the greek, The issue is solved.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#411
Sep 8, 2018
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#411
eternally-gratefull said:
No, it costs a few hundred dollars. I started with it before it became logos. And just upgraded every so often. One nice thing about it, Is you can buy induvidual books seperately and add it to your library, and it automatically is shown on any “look up”. I currently am saving for BDAG/HALOT which supposedly is one of the best language sources out there (A 5 book series)

I can not remember any contradictions I have found to be resolved at those moment, I just remember some were. Baptise is even more involved that that. Dip is from the greek “Bapto” Where Baptize is from the greek “Baptizo”, Sprinkle is another word altogether

What I found interesting is in ancient Greek, one who baptizes is seen quite differently than we see today. A baptizer or baptist was a person who worked in a dye shop, his job was to dye clothing. The process by which the cloth was placed into the solution in order to change its appearance was called baptizmo (baptism)

Oh I just remembered one contradiction I finally satisfied. Acts 2. Repent and be baptized. Why did scripture here say we had to repent AND be baptised, but in most other, it just says repent. Well when you look it up in the greek, The issue is solved.
Click to expand...
acts 2 is definately a big one. its used by campbellites and oneness pentecostals.

These guys are famous for STOPPING READING at Acts 2.........

It reallly would be odd for them to not mention baptism in the other verses. ANd Paul says I was not sent to baptize, if that was the case Paul's preaching wasnt getting anyone saved since you needed to be baptized.
So there would be internal contradictions.

But WHY are all the translations of Acts 2:38 wrong then? Ive heard sermons about it with the middle-voice passive-voice and whatever, I dont understand any of that, but how come all the translations got it wrong?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#412
#412
Hevosmies said:
acts 2 is definately a big one. its used by campbellites and oneness pentecostals.

These guys are famous for STOPPING READING at Acts 2.........

It reallly would be odd for them to not mention baptism in the other verses. ANd Paul says I was not sent to baptize, if that was the case Paul's preaching wasnt getting anyone saved since you needed to be baptized.
So there would be internal contradictions.

But WHY are all the translations of Acts 2:38 wrong then? Ive heard sermons about it with the middle-voice passive-voice and whatever, I dont understand any of that, but how come all the translations got it wrong?
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One must remember most english translations are a word for word translation. Which means they find the word which best fits the greek text according to what the interpretor believes (thats why we have differing interpretations or bibles)

Doing this has inherent flaws. Especially if the language does not have the correct words or tense uses available to properly and completely interpret the word in question (baptize is an example. As is Christ (from the greek christos) or Jesus (from the greek Iesus) are just a few examples of transliterating a word.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#413
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#413
eternally-gratefull said:
I still hate the word must. It implies it must be accomplished or something will be taken away. Or you better do it or else.think of the unloving parent pointing a finger etc etc.

Other than that, I agree.
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I understand your point. Must, or needs to as originally stated does not imply fear of losing something, but it is from the perspective that we are saved to bear much fruit. It is not a hearing "must", but a joyful must like an athlete must train or a musician must practice or a student must study, not out of fear of failure, but to be the best they can be. We must grow, because it glorified God, makes us more fruitful, and our and others joy is made full in Him

God bless
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#414
#414
Macabeus said:
I understand your point. Must, or needs to as originally stated does not imply fear of losing something, but it is from the perspective that we are saved to bear much fruit. It is not a hearing "must", but a joyful must like an athlete must train or a musician must practice or a student must study, not out of fear of failure, but to be the best they can be. We must grow, because it glorified God, makes us more fruitful, and our and others joy is made full in Him

God bless
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Amen, we are on the same page, Thank you
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#415
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#415
Hevosmies said:
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Check out the tense of the word "is" born of God. https://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm
Click to expand...
Yes, because the instant they believe they are born of God, and the faith is a continuing faith. Whoever is believing has been born of God. My continuing faith, as opposed to the type of faith that is momentary and fleeting or else temporary in some, is evidence that I have been regenerated
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#416
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#416
eternally-gratefull said:
No, it costs a few hundred dollars. I started with it before it became logos. And just upgraded every so often. One nice thing about it, Is you can buy induvidual books seperately and add it to your library, and it automatically is shown on any “look up”. I currently am saving for BDAG/HALOT which supposedly is one of the best language sources out there (A 5 book series)

I can not remember any contradictions I have found to be resolved at those moment, I just remember some were. Baptise is even more involved that that. Dip is from the greek “Bapto” Where Baptize is from the greek “Baptizo”, Sprinkle is another word altogether

What I found interesting is in ancient Greek, one who baptizes is seen quite differently than we see today. A baptizer or baptist was a person who worked in a dye shop, his job was to dye clothing. The process by which the cloth was placed into the solution in order to change its appearance was called baptizmo (baptism)

Oh I just remembered one contradiction I finally satisfied. Acts 2. Repent and be baptized. Why did scripture here say we had to repent AND be baptised, but in most other, it just says repent. Well when you look it up in the greek, The issue is solved.
Click to expand...
Is it the preposition eis that answers the question?
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#419
Dec 27, 2018
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#419
The preposition eis is translated for in English, but can also mean with reference to or because of.
 
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