Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

[Budman]

Yes, because the instant they believe they are born of God, and the faith is a continuing faith. Whoever is believing has been born of God. My continuing faith, as opposed to the type of faith that is momentary and fleeting or else temporary in some, is evidence that I have been regenerated

So, you believe it is now up to you and your efforts to remain saved?

 

[preacher4truth]

Primitive Baptist bible translation from the Codex Decepticus:

"For whosoever believeth in the happy hunting grounds shall be saved"

Codex decepticus...lol!!!! I better go to bed, long day!!!! But that's funny!

 

[Macabeus]

So, you believe it is now up to you and your efforts to remain saved?

Lol, no. I believe that saving faith perserveres. I am kept by the power of God through faith. If it was up to me at any time, I would have sure it fallen away

I have the blood of Jesus, a High Priest, and God's Spirit, and His Grace keeps me from fallinwg

 

[Nehemiah6]

Thats alot of stuff happening in one micro second.

That's why they came up nano-seconds.

 

[Macabeus]

That's why they came up nano-seconds.

If God can create the universe in six days, He can save a soul in a nanosecond.

But just as creation of the Kosmos, He first created, then forms and fills.

 

[Macabeus]

So, you believe it is now up to you and your efforts to remain saved?

How do you get " it's up to me and my efforts to remain saved" from "my continuing faith is evidence of my regeneration.

The text is clear. Present tense verb "believes" indicates a person has been born of God. I didn't say anything the text doesnt say, and I never said anything about efforts or works

 

[preacher4truth]

Lol, no. I believe that saving faith perserveres. I am kept by the power of God through faith. If it was up to me at any time, I would have sure it fallen away

I have the blood of Jesus, a High Priest, and God's Spirit, and His Grace keeps me from fallinwg

Too many conflate evidence of conversion with works salvation which is rather remarkable to witness. Not much thinking going on when that happens imho, especially when they're arguing theology all day.

 

[Budman]

How do you get " it's up to me and my efforts to remain saved" from "my continuing faith is evidence of my regeneration.

The text is clear. Present tense verb "believes" indicates a person has been born of God. I didn't say anything the text doesnt say, and I never said anything about efforts or works

Do you think you must continue to 'believe" in order to remain saved?

 

[Macabeus]

Do you think you must continue to 'believe" in order to remain saved?

The better question is " do you, Budman, believe a person can perservere in true faith without being born again? The answer, of course, would be NO. So the relevant details in ( relevant to the post you originally replied to) would be this

A. Is it possible for an unregenerate person to perservere in true saving faith?

B. No it is not, for an unregenerate person does not have true, saving faith.

C. Then it follows that a person that has true and saving faith, and perserveres there in is surely regenerate, for an unregenerate person would not have true saving faith to begin with.

D. Now, you have to ask, "how does one know they have true, saving faith

E. Because there will be evidences that their faith is real

F. What kind of evidences of true faith? Obedience, love, fruitbearing

G. Do we obtain faith by obeying, loving, and bearing fruit? No! We bear fruit, love, and obey because of our faith. Faith produces fruit

H. Faith without works is dead. Is faith alive because we work? No, we work because our faith is alive

I. Is faith real because it perserveres on it's own effort. No it perserveres because it is real

J. Is a cat a cat because it meows, or does it meow because it is a cat?

K. Do we love because we are children of God, or are we children of God because we love? We love because we are children of God!

L. Is it necessary to love to be a Christian? He that loves not knows not God

M. So again, do we love because we are Christians or are we Christians because we love? BOTH. But the new birth is the basis

N. Do we believe because we are Christians, or are we Christians because we believe? Both, but we ARE BELIEVING present tense, because we are born of God. That is what 1 John 5:1 is saying

Blessings

 

[preacher4truth]

The better question is " do you, Budman, believe a person can perservere in true faith without being born again? The answer, of course, would be NO. So the relevant details in ( relevant to the post you originally replied to) would be this

A. Is it possible for an unregenerate person to perservere in true saving faith?

B. No it is not, for an unregenerate person does not have true, saving faith.

C. Then it follows that a person that has true and saving faith, and perserveres there in is surely regenerate, for an unregenerate person would not have true saving faith to begin with.

D. Now, you have to ask, "how does one know they have true, saving faith

E. Because there will be evidences that their faith is real

F. What kind of evidences of true faith? Obedience, love, fruitbearing

G. Do we obtain faith by obeying, loving, and bearing fruit? No! We bear fruit, love, and obey because of our faith. Faith produces fruit

H. Faith without works is dead. Is faith alive because we work? No, we work because our faith is alive

I. Is faith real because it perserveres on it's own effort. No it perserveres because it is real

J. Is a cat a cat because it meows, or does it meow because it is a cat?

K. Do we love because we are children of God, or are we children of God because we love? We love because we are children of God!

L. Is it necessary to love to be a Christian? He that loves not knows not God

M. So again, do we love because we are Christians or are we Christians because we love? BOTH. But the new birth is the basis

N. Do we believe because we are Christians, or are we Christians because we believe? Both, but we ARE BELIEVING present tense, because we are born of God. That is what 1 John 5:1 is saying

Blessings

Of course your list is not exhaustive concerning evidence of conversion and there is nothing wrong with it, but that being said there is more Scripture to examine that adds to this list more marks of a true believer.

Yet there is always the come back from many who would say "Oh no, you're preaching a works gospel!" Not even close, what I'm preaching is not the truncated gospel many preach, which is why it may seem foreign to them, but is instead the extent of the true Gospel Christ preached. True faith in the true Gospel is not blind faith.

 

[Macabeus]

Of course your list is not exhaustive concerning evidence of conversion and there is nothing wrong with it, but that being said there is more Scripture to examine that adds to this list more marks of a true believer.

Yet there is always the come back from many who would say "Oh no, you're preaching a works gospel!" Not even close, what I'm preaching is not the truncated gospel many preach, which is why it may seem foreign to them, but is instead the extent of the true Gospel Christ preached. True faith in the true Gospel is not blind faith.

Where there is a living, healthy tree there is fruit.

They don't realize that it is not a works gospel because we are not basing our salvation on works. We are already saved. We do not work to get saved or stay saved, we work, and love, and bear fruit because we are saved.

It is a labor of love, not trying to earn something.

We know that God is concerned just as much with WHY we do things as what we are doing.

add- I know my list is not comprehensive. I was just putting in a couple of examples.

 

[preacher4truth]

Where there is a living, healthy tree there is fruit.

They don't realize that it is not a works gospel because we are not basing our salvation on works. We are already saved. We do not work to get saved or stay saved, we work, and love, and bear fruit because we are saved.

It is a labor of love, not trying to earn something.

We know that God is concerned just as much with WHY we do things as what we are doing.

add- I know my list is not comprehensive. I was just putting in a couple of examples.

Yes, I'm sure you did not intend your list to be exhaustive, nor did it need to be. Some will come along and use it as evidence that others had the things you listed, and then lost their salvation. This is one reason for my follow up of your good post. There are more evidences of conversion that are part of the equation and essential elements of the one true Gospel.

 

[Macabeus]

Yes, I'm sure you did not intend your list to be exhaustive, nor did it need to be. Some will come along and use it as evidence that others had the things you listed, and then lost their salvation. This is one reason for my follow up of your good post. There are more evidences of conversion that are part of the equation and essential elements of the one true Gospel.

Very good points, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Jimbone]

Well, thanks for that. Am glad to know how your relationship with the Lord is. And i agree upon what you said about coming together to understand better.
Like you had doubts about free will/losing salvation... I have also had my own doubts. And yes... am pretty much stuck in the hows/whys... Rather than acting out anything. You said... One side has a too high a view of men. I hope i haven't portrayed myself as such a one in my discussions... Because i have come to a point wherein i feel terrible about myself and my nature... so handicapped abt my sinful nature. But yea , i do have this one thing in me... If God has given us this life... then let my life be His responsibility... not mine... i know my fallen nature... I know i don't always chose the right thing and even God knows. At times i feel imprisoned, like i wanna do what is right, i make plans and strategies and still end up in sin. So i end up getting angry when i get the knowledge that God hates sin and sinners have no part in heaven... And yet i do sin and then i feel why was i even born then?.. So i get all messed up u know. I wanted to be clear if we have a free will or not.. So that i can understand my motives, whether i have the choice and still am sinning or am doing this unwillingly. Like if someone tells me.. Its freewill... Its my choice.. Then i would atleast know what step to take. I would know the motives of my heart were wrong...i purposefully wanna sin.. But if someone says to me that there ain't any free will... There is an elect... They are already chosen... My mind starts thinking... Maybe it is these people who will be able to overcome sin and have a splendis relationship with God.. Maybe i wasn't meant for it. I start feeling.. Hurt and questioning God's love. And many a times i just wonder why Adam and Eve's sin must spread like cancer to all even though they ate the apple. I didn't eat it... And yet from my birth.. The label of sinner is given as an inheritance it seems. I am a depressed individual now. I have seen God doing great wonders in my life but i have also started to become sensitive to my mistakes and imperfections... And just pretty much messed up... I donno what to say. I hope u r getting what am saying.

LOL, wow I answer 14 pages later, and have no clue where the conversation at all is where this response will be posted, but yes I absolutely understand what you're saying, and honestly think it's a beautiful place to be, because I also see all these battles and questions as a man seeking truth, period. I now hold "truth" to be of the upmost importance now that I have been reborn of the Spirit, that is honestly not something I held dear in the flesh. In the flesh it's about sacred opinion, and the only sin is to offend someone else's opinion. It's madness when you give it any real thought, however "real thought" is in very short supply these days. Of course I only see this now because He opened my eyes to it in truth, and I remember what it's like to be comfortably lost in an endless sea of entertaining deception, as if truth was unknowable.

I praise God you're addressing these things and growing in Him. The view I've shared so far is the result of walking in Him for 5 years working through these things, reading for myself, taking time every morning to speak to, listen to, read His word, to get ready for the day. These are not at all things that I did from day 1, I have grown very much since then, and believe very differently now than I did Sept. 29th, 2013. I also believe I will believe very differently on some issues 5 years from now, it's a walk and I just want to encourage you by saying the truth is AMAZING the closer you get to Him, the hotter the fire grows. It's just plain exciting in my soul, and I have no idea where you are personally in your walk, but I want to testify that it gets bigger and bigger as you draw closer to Him. Jesus Christ is KING and everything is going under Him. We are called to "Go", and make disciples of ALL nations, and brother that power of the TRUTH to change men is the very definition of "real", and we are the mean by which this news is spread through all nations.

Even though I do absolutely believe God is in control of everything in sovereign power, I also understand that we, as his creation, are subject to time and space, and very much do make choices, and have "a" will, I just believe that will is governed by 1 of 2 different natures, namely the flesh and the spirit. I believe the bible says our "will" is enslaved to one of these natures, either we are slaves of sin, or slaves of Christ. So outside of the spirit we can not please God, but once a man is born again, His spirit brought to life and reconciled, by Hid grace, to the Holy Spirit, "plugged" back into Him as you were created to be, made whole in a way impossible by the flesh, you are now a new creature, called to serve and glorify our Great God in truth. I want to end with 1 last encouragement for you in the midst of working these things out, I also had to struggle with some of these hard issues, and that's not past tense and I pray that until the day He closes my eyes that I am working things out to be made more like Him, but there are these moments when He just opens your eyes to whole new truths that are almost as impactful and paradigm shifting as rebirth, it's amazing and so worth the struggles and researching. I pray He guide you and draw you closer every day and can't wait to hear testament of how He uses you for His glory out here. Have a great new year man, and I absolutely love these kinds of conversations, so thank you so much and I look forward to hearing back, of seeing other post from you.

 

[preacher4truth]

Very good points, thanks for clarifying.

Proverbs 27:17 brother.

 

[NayborBear]

So, you believe it is now up to you and your efforts to remain saved?

Funny, how one can see "works = Salvation."

Another sees "works", as the "keeping" of one's "election" assured!

One sees Salvation ONLY! One sees Election!

 

[Macabeus]

LOL, wow I answer 14 pages later, and have no clue where the conversation at all is where this response will be posted, but yes I absolutely understand what you're saying, and honestly think it's a beautiful place to be, because I also see all these battles and questions as a man seeking truth, period. I now hold "truth" to be of the upmost importance now that I have been reborn of the Spirit, that is honestly not something I held dear in the flesh. In the flesh it's about sacred opinion, and the only sin is to offend someone else's opinion. It's madness when you give it any real thought, however "real thought" is in very short supply these days. Of course I only see this now because He opened my eyes to it in truth, and I remember what it's like to be comfortably lost in an endless sea of entertaining deception, as if truth was unknowable.

I praise God you're addressing these things and growing in Him. The view I've shared so far is the result of walking in Him for 5 years working through these things, reading for myself, taking time every morning to speak to, listen to, read His word, to get ready for the day. These are not at all things that I did from day 1, I have grown very much since then, and believe very differently now than I did Sept. 29th, 2013. I also believe I will believe very differently on some issues 5 years from now, it's a walk and I just want to encourage you by saying the truth is AMAZING the closer you get to Him, the hotter the fire grows. It's just plain exciting in my soul, and I have no idea where you are personally in your walk, but I want to testify that it gets bigger and bigger as you draw closer to Him. Jesus Christ is KING and everything is going under Him. We are called to "Go", and make disciples of ALL nations, and brother that power of the TRUTH to change men is the very definition of "real", and we are the mean by which this news is spread through all nations.

Even though I do absolutely believe God is in control of everything in sovereign power, I also understand that we, as his creation, are subject to time and space, and very much do make choices, and have "a" will, I just believe that will is governed by 1 of 2 different natures, namely the flesh and the spirit. I believe the bible says our "will" is enslaved to one of these natures, either we are slaves of sin, or slaves of Christ. So outside of the spirit we can not please God, but once a man is born again, His spirit brought to life and reconciled, by Hid grace, to the Holy Spirit, "plugged" back into Him as you were created to be, made whole in a way impossible by the flesh, you are now a new creature, called to serve and glorify our Great God in truth. I want to end with 1 last encouragement for you in the midst of working these things out, I also had to struggle with some of these hard issues, and that's not past tense and I pray that until the day He closes my eyes that I am working things out to be made more like Him, but there are these moments when He just opens your eyes to whole new truths that are almost as impactful and paradigm shifting as rebirth, it's amazing and so worth the struggles and researching. I pray He guide you and draw you closer every day and can't wait to hear testament of how He uses you for His glory out here. Have a great new year man, and I absolutely love these kinds of conversations, so thank you so much and I look forward to hearing back, of seeing other post from you.

I think election, sovereignty of God, basis for election in relation to man's choice is something I at least, do not fully understand, but I believe in both. Just as do not fully understand the hypostatic union, but believe it because of scripture. You don't have to have perfect understanding to have faith. Fuller understanding comes after faith.

BTW, this answers the nanosecond question. God can save us in a nanosecond because we don't have to have full understanding. Just enough to repent towards God and have faith in Jesus. That can happen in an instant. That is new birth. All the other stuff follows as we grow from infancy, to children, to young men, to maturity in faith

 

[Macabeus]

Funny, how one can see "works = Salvation."

Another sees "works", as the "keeping" of one's "election" assured!

One sees Salvation ONLY! One sees Election!

On my part, I do not think works secures and keeps my election. If it was based on works, I would have split hell wide open long ago. Election is based on the Grace of God, which called me, regenerated me, justified me, sanctified me, keeps me, cleanses me continuously, the Son who intercedes for me, the Spirit who intercedes for me and keeps me on the path, and the God who makes me stand. The works part is all to His Glory, for He Works in us to will and to do. The only credit I take is when I don't live up to His Calling, when I fall short, that's all me, when I am doing well, it is God working in me

The key. Am I minding the things of the flesh or of the Spirit? When we walk in the Spirit, we have Victory in Jesus.

We have already won for He won. Walking in the Spirit is walking in the full blessing of the victory Christ won over sin, death, the devil, the grave, and my flesh

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Lol, no. I believe that saving faith perserveres. I am kept by the power of God through faith. If it was up to me at any time, I would have sure it fallen away

I have the blood of Jesus, a High Priest, and God's Spirit, and His Grace keeps me from fallinwg

That is exactly right. When we are regenerated, we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. We have Christ in us. Jesus said, he cannot deny himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If God can create the universe in six days, He can save a soul in a nanosecond.

But just as creation of the Kosmos, He first created, then forms and fills.

Yes he can But that is not what Nehimiah was taling about. He was talking about my STILL unanswered question of how fatalism has survive with a person being justified and regenerated (born again) in the same microsecond.