Daniel 9:25 & 26

[eternally-gratefull]

Daniel 7:21-27 mark it down. Preterism DEBUNKED. No counter argument. I've seen them counter Dan 7:13 and Dan 2:44 saying its the church being founded spiritual reign and stuff, which ok but uhh. Daniel 7:21-27 UNCOUNTERABLE.

Its clear as day. NO SPIRITUAL INTERPRETATION WILL SUFFICE! It says that UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN teh saints of the MOST HIGH will run the system with Jesus!
That has NOT NOT NOT NOT happened yet! And if anyone says its happening now they are engaging in redefining of the terms to such a degree that i cant stomach it!

Have the kingdoms been given to the saints of the Most High? NO they have not. STILL FUTURE. Thanks a ton eternally-gratefull i'll memorize these verses.

There is so much stuff which has not happened yet, which we are told will happen. Like the things I tried to bring up with someone who said they have happened. From Isaiah 11. And others where it says the people of the gentile nations will come to Jerusalem to worhsip Jesus once a year, and the families who do nto will be punished due by drought (no rain)

 

[Hevosmies]

There is so much stuff which has not happened yet, which we are told will happen. Like the things I tried to bring up with someone who said they have happened. From Isaiah 11. And others where it says the people of the gentile nations will come to Jerusalem to worhsip Jesus once a year, and the families who do nto will be punished due by drought (no rain)

But you see thats the difference:

You and I read "Gentiles come to Jerusalem" and we believe "gentiles" means gentiles, "come" means to go somewhere and "Jerusalem" means a city in the middle-east. We believe no rain means lack of rain, a drought in the land. We believe nations not lifting a sword against another nation means no more wars. Not just that the "Gospel era brings peace to the hearts of the Church" or something like that. Its disgusting how some of these guys interpret scripture, just making it up as they go along

The expert commentators would have us believe that the verses are talking about people getting saved. Well why does it use such complicated language to explain a simple event? Why doesnt the verse just say "And Gentiles were saved by the Lord" PERIOD?

Words mean what they say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But you see thats the difference:

You and I read "Gentiles come to Jerusalem" and we believe "gentiles" means gentiles, "come" means to go somewhere and "Jerusalem" means a city in the middle-east. We believe no rain means lack of rain, a drought in the land. We believe nations not lifting a sword against another nation means no more wars. Not just that the "Gospel era brings peace to the hearts of the Church" or something like that. Its disgusting how some of these guys interpret scripture, just making it up as they go along

The expert commentators would have us believe that the verses are talking about people getting saved. Well why does it use such complicated language to explain a simple event? Why doesnt the verse just say "And Gentiles were saved by the Lord" PERIOD?

Words mean what they say.

Many OT prophets say gentiles will come to God and be saved, Rom 9 and ten speak of some of these passages. So if it was just Gentiles getting saved, God did not have to make it symbolic, when he said it non symbolic in the first place.. its not like he was tryign to hide that.

 

[Bookends]

This is not true The destruction of the city follows the cutting off of the messiah Which is to occurs at the END of the 69th week. Which is followed by an undetermined time of war desolations. After the flood. And THEN the 70th week starts with some future prince confirming a covenant for 7 years with many. Which 3.5 years after this time, He will commit the abomination of desolation. Which Jesus says will be IMMEDIATELY followed by the great tribulation. Which Gabriel said in Dan 9 will contine until a time that is determined (we know from other prophesies this time is 3.5 years) at whcih time, as jesus said himself. He will put an end to tribulation because if he does not, all flesh will die, So he puts an end to it as his return

Even Dan 2 and Dan 9 prophesies concernign the gentile rulers over jerusalem we are told will end by the return of Christ himself.

Since Christ has not returned The prophesys can not have been fulfilled

Heya bud, scripture that I read says that the cutting of of the Messiah happens after the 62nd week not at the end of it, after the 62nd week is the 70th week, you place an unwarranted gap between the 69th week and the 70th...That's you asking me to take somewhere that 15 minutes away from your house, but it ends being 24 hours; and I ask you I thought you said it was 15 minutes and you say, oh, yeah, I forgot to tell you it's 15 minutes from the US/Mexico boarder. The weeks are consecutive, to add a gap is to add something that isn't there.. It's clearly written, I can't understand how you can't see that. But oh well, God bless. Look up Hebrew word for determined in Daniel 9:27.

 

[Jackson129]

I see alot of people referring to Cyrus's decree as the beginning point I dont believe it is. Cyrus's decree has to do with rebuilding the temple. Daniel 9:25 states from the going forth of the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem. Not the temple.
The decree to rebuild Jerusalem came from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah (Neh. 2:1-8) in 444 B.C.
If you take the 7 weeks plus the 62 weeks till the Messiah is cut off, meaning the crucifixion of Christ. Using prophetic years (360 days) you go from March-April (nisan) 444 B.C to April 33 A.D. The probable date of our Lords crucifixion.
This is exactly 483 prophetic years or 178,880 days which exactly aligns with our solar calendar. That is too exact to be denied.
The 70th week is deliberately left a mystery. Because that is the only future week in the 70 week prophecy. It begins the day the antichrist begins his reign of terror.

 

[Bookends]

You forgot the rest of Lev 26 where moses was told EVEN after Isreal was completely removed from their land (which never happened under babylon) if they would repent, God would remember his promise to the fathers, he woudl remember the eternal covenant he made with Abraham, he would remember the land.

I hate this new format...oh well... The physical land promise was never eternal, or rather never meant to me. It a type of what is to come, Eternity with Christ in a remade Earth and universe. Which in that sense, since Christians are a continuation of God's people the promise is kept for it is God's will for the whole world to come to repentance and receive His inheritance, not 1 ethnic group.

The sin was not rejecting Christ, They did not get over run from babylon because they rejected Christ. They got run over because they disobeyed Gods commands and worshiped false idols.. It is why Roma took them over.

The sin of the Israelites before babylonian captivity was their disobedience ( I thought I said that), but their sin of transgression in Daniel 9 is a prophesy, which it's a future sin. Their punishment continued for 490 years, because they didn't truly repent (as a nation/people of God) and it was not sin responsible for the destruction of their religious system/temple/city/culture etc. The sin that lead to their destruction was the over all rejection of God (which is disobedience, the worst kind you can have) and killing Jesus was the icing on the cake.

The context of Dan 9, is Isreal. It is Jerusalem, It is the temple.

No disagreement here, but more importantly are the six things mentioned in verse 24, these six things are what the whole 70 weeks are determined for, the destruction of the city and temple aren't mentioned here 24. Some details are given about the 70th week in 26A and 27A, but in 26B,C and 27B,C are details given in another decree (26C and 27C) without a timeline. Jesus spoke this decree and gave them the timeline of 1 generation (@ 40 years). BUT it's the six things in 24 that set them free, if they believed, and ultimately set anyone free who believes.

Any interpretation of gabriels prophesiec outside these three things are taking dan 9 out of Context.

As Long as Israel is in sin. It is not all is fulfilled

As long as Jerusalem is desolate. Not all is fulfilled

As long as the temple is desolate. Not all is fulfilled

Dan 9 is not about the church, the gentiles or the new covenant, Salvation by grace) it is about what Daniel prayed for.

Here is the context of Gabriels answer. Anything outside of this is to take it out of context.

Dan 9: 16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. 17 Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake [a]cause Your face to shine on [b]Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies. 19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

Yes, and here is the heart of the issue. If you do not believe that the Church is a continuation of God's true people, true Israel, anyone who seeks after God with an honest and authentic heart (OT saints and NT saints), then you would be correct. But Paul in the NT clearly states that we are true Israel by using the analogy of a cultivated oil tree (and many other scriptures, we been down this road before). Therefore, if Christians are true Israel then this prophecy does pertain to US and ALL the saints of God (Paul would say the Israel of God).

 

[Bookends]

I

t would be kind of odd for God to hear this prayer, Then send Gabriel to answer that prayer. Then the answer is that in the end, Your people. Your land Your city and Your temple will be destroyed forever..

Heh, reminds me of my Dad's sermon called "How Odd of God." The people had 40 years to repent, some did, some didn't. That isn't fair? Plus all the miracles they saw! The destruction of the city and temple was necessary to abolish the old system, for the new system was in, which was/is "I will put my laws into their minds and hearts, I will be their God and they will be my People." God's true followers were not destroyed by His wrath and their temple was/is Christ, not made with human hands. Why go back to the old promises when better promises are to be had, for the Jew and gentile?

T

he 70 weeks was telling Daniel. God will allow his people to come back in (in sin) and again rebuild (in sin) but that again it will be detroyed (after messaih is cut off) and it will remain in that state for an undetermined amout of time, but will again be rebuilt.

What do you they were doing for the 490 years?

 

[Bookends]

B

ut this time a prince will abominate the temple. And he will be given a set amout of ytime to remain in power. Until God puts an end to it. At this time, the 70 weeks will end

I claim this is after the 70 weeks, in which I admit is debatable but again I urge to look up the word determined in Hebrew for verse 26C and 27C, it has a different then "determined" in verse 24. the decree was given, by Christ, within the 70th week.

S

o you and your people still have hope. Because when 70 weeks are completed. The SIN of your people will be complete. And the land, The city, The temple will be completely restored, and as we know from other prophesies, Her king will be in power. And he will rule with a rod of Iron.

1. Rod of Iron means longevity, Christ rules now, he is King. He is King over His people who are His body. We as God's people and we have tremendous hope, the 70 Weeks are completed, Sin no longer reigns in the believer, the Land is a land in which even Abraham longed for, no temple build with human hands, but Christ is our temple...Christ said destroy this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days. Why is it so hard for you to understand? Even the elect can be deceived I reckon.

Again, God bless you man, you know I love you!

 

[Bookends]

Whats this 10000 character limit crap!

 

[Jackson129]

I know I am a new member here. I just want to say this for a second if I may because of all the disagreements I see on this topic and others.
The 70th week prophecy is what I refer to as a "docturnal" study. There are the core beliefs of Christ that must be followed. Such as who he was and what he represented. As well as his teachings. These are to be followed for salvation. Things like the 70 week prophecy are for further research topics. Wether or not you understand that chapter of the bible, has no bearing on salvation. So why risk sin by having anger and hatred for your fellow brethren? On a topic that is not neccessary for salvation? What is the point of feeling right or wrong on such a topic? This just might be one of the mysteries of God revealed during the revelation of Christ at his second coming.

 

[Jackson129]

Maybe this will help things. Jesus stated.. except I had not sped up the days for the sake of the elect, no flesh would have survived.
God created all yes even time. Since God created time God can manipulate it. As suggested by that line. He can manipulate observations of time to bend the creation to his will.
The Hebrew calendar had 354 days in a civil year 384 in a holy year. The prophetical year had 360 days. The solar year has 365 days, with a leap year. This alone makes it nearly impossible for us to develop an accurate time line sync. Now add God manipulating time to his will and plan, we have to face the fact we really dont know what "time" it is. Only the Father does. And His time is the only time that matters.

 

[Hevosmies]

@Nehemiah6 @eternally-gratefull
@everypretribbeliever

What about John 6:40? It says the resurrection is at the LAST DAY? Like rev 20:4.

This is way after the tribulation, so we got last day; after the tribulation, and first resurrection in which those who didnt take teh mark are. Thats three witnesses.

How can we reconcile the "last day" with BEFORE the last day?

If there is a day after the "Last day" it wasnt the last day. Same problem with the "last trumpet". if there is a trumpet after the "last trumpet" how can it be last one?

There is a trumpet today, the rapture, the LAST TRUMPET. Then after that, there is ANOTHER trumpet of Matthew 24:31, how can that be? It would make matthew 24:31 the last trumpet?

JUST THINKING OUT LOUD fellas. Dont get mad at me ANyone got an answer to these?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heya bud, scripture that I read says that the cutting of of the Messiah happens after the 62nd week not at the end of it, after the 62nd week is the 70th week, you place an unwarranted gap between the 69th week and the 70th...That's you asking me to take somewhere that 15 minutes away from your house, but it ends being 24 hours; and I ask you I thought you said it was 15 minutes and you say, oh, yeah, I forgot to tell you it's 15 minutes from the US/Mexico boarder. The weeks are consecutive, to add a gap is to add something that isn't there.. It's clearly written, I can't understand how you can't see that. But oh well, God bless. Look up Hebrew word for determined in Daniel 9:27.

Heya bud, the hebrew term used signifies immediately following,

We know the when the 70 weeks began, we know when the 69 week ended, we knew how messiah would be introduced “Riding on a donkey” and we know messiah was cut off the next weekend. So all is fulfilled exactly as it was prophesied, (even jesus said they should have known what that day was, the time of his comming, but now it would be hidden from them)

As far as no gap, the city was destroyed 4 decades later, so you already have a gap.

Determined - to be decreed, or be determine, a judgment,

Even until the consumation, which is decreed or determine. Is poured out on the desolate

Yep, Fits what i said, and as i said,, jesus tells us what the time period is, from the time of the abomination, until he returns, during that time, gods wrath (judgment) is poured on the desolate, or a time called the great tribulation or time of jacobs trouble,

 

[Locutus]

Yes, the last day of the old covenant was when the last trump blew thus the new heavens and earth were established at the destruction of the temple and the sack of Jerusalem.

Of course. unless you understand that the whore of Bablylon is none other than the Jews/Israel of the 1st century and her city (O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets) yer just gonna go round circles.

 

[Hevosmies]

the last trump blew thus the new heavens and earth were established at the destruction of the temple and the sack of Jerusalem.

We have entered the twilight zone. Oy vey!

I wont even waste time debunking that.

"Whats clearly understood dont need to be explained" - Deontay Wilder

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hate this new format...oh well... The physical land promise was never eternal, or rather never meant to me. It a type of what is to come, Eternity with Christ in a remade Earth and universe. Which in that sense, since Christians are a continuation of God's people the promise is kept for it is God's will for the whole world to come to repentance and receive His inheritance, not 1 ethnic group.

gen 15:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

gen 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Genesis 48:4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a multitude of people, and give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.’

sorry, i have to go with the bible on this one, eternal means forever, everlasting, never ending.

The sin of the Israelites before babylonian captivity was their disobedience ( I thought I said that), but their sin of transgression in Daniel 9 is a prophesy, which it's a future sin. Their punishment continued for 490 years, because they didn't truly repent (as a nation/people of God) and it was not sin responsible for the destruction of their religious system/temple/city/culture etc. The sin that lead to their destruction was the over all rejection of God (which is disobedience, the worst kind you can have) and killing Jesus was the icing on the cake.

Isreal never realy repented, thats why they stayed under gentile dominion, they were still being punished.
The prophesy says their sin will be completed, ie, it means they repent, God allowed them to rebuild, but he also said it would again be destroyed, it did not say because they would sin, it never said they would stop their sin until after the 70 weeks are ended, or at the completion of the time of the gentile, even paulmagrees with this in romans 11.

No disagreement here, but more importantly are the six things mentioned in verse 24, these six things are what the whole 70 weeks are determined for, the destruction of the city and temple aren't mentioned here 24. Some details are given about the 70th week in 26A and 27A, but in 26B,C and 27B,C are details given in another decree (26C and 27C) without a timeline. Jesus spoke this decree and gave them the timeline of 1 generation (@ 40 years). BUT it's the six things in 24 that set them free, if they believed, and ultimately set anyone free who believes.

It still has to do with Israel no gentile person has any part in the prophesy, nore the fulfilment of the prophesy

Yes, and here is the heart of the issue. If you do not believe that the Church is a continuation of God's true people, true Israel, anyone who seeks after God with an honest and authentic heart (OT saints and NT saints), then you would be correct. But Paul in the NT clearly states that we are true Israel by using the analogy of a cultivated oil tree (and many other scriptures, we been down this road before). Therefore, if Christians are true Israel then this prophecy does pertain to US and ALL the saints of God (Paul would say the Israel of God).

The church has always been gods people jew or gentile since adam and eve, even in isreal (see ninevah and many other gentiles who were part of the universal church)we are not talking about the church though

We are talking about a prophesy concerning a nation, who very few wete actually part of the church, let alone as daniel said, they were still gods chosen nation, even in sin, thats why daniel made intercession

It has nothing to do with gentiles, it is not even a who is saved who is not saved issue, the issue is when Israel as a nation will finish the transgression, finish her sin, and repent.

According to daniel 9, after the 70th week, which would also be the end of the time of jacobs trouble, which purpose was to being israel to repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heh, reminds me of my Dad's sermon called "How Odd of God." The people had 40 years to repent, some did, some didn't. That isn't fair? Plus all the miracles they saw! The destruction of the city and temple was necessary to abolish the old system, for the new system was in, which was/is "I will put my laws into their minds and hearts, I will be their God and they will be my People." God's true followers were not destroyed by His wrath and their temple was/is Christ, not made with human hands.

Paul spoke of this in Romans, he did not speak of it to the church, he spoke of it concerning Israel a time when they will repent. ,

Why go back to the old promises when better promises are to be had, for the Jew and gentile?

Who said anything about going back, the old promises concerning mosaid law never saved 1 person, and it never will

What do you they were doing for the 490 years?

490? Try the last 2000 plus years,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I claim this is after the 70 weeks, in which I admit is debatable but again I urge to look up the word determined in Hebrew for verse 26C and 27C, it has a different then "determined" in verse 24. the decree was given, by Christ, within the 70th week.

I saw that, and replied, it does not change anything,
Judgment occures After the abomination of desolation, it has not occured yet.

1. Rod of Iron means longevity, Christ rules now, he is King. He is King over His people who are His body. We as God's people and we have tremendous hope, the 70 Weeks are completed, Sin no longer reigns in the believer, the Land is a land in which even Abraham longed for, no temple build with human hands, but Christ is our temple...Christ said destroy this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days. Why is it so hard for you to understand? Even the elect can be deceived I reckon.

Again, God bless you man, you know I love you!

Ouch, psalms 2 tells us what this rod of iron means,

2 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

Rod of iron is a term of judgment, Jesus will break the nations and kings who disobey and dash them to peaces, he will have order in his kingdom

And you know i love you to bro, even though we disagree, we do not attack as many do, and i appreciate our conversations,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Whats this 10000 character limit crap!

I know, i hate it myself

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@Nehemiah6 @eternally-gratefull
@everypretribbeliever

What about John 6:40? It says the resurrection is at the LAST DAY? Like rev 20:4.

This is way after the tribulation, so we got last day; after the tribulation, and first resurrection in which those who didnt take teh mark are. Thats three witnesses.

How can we reconcile the "last day" with BEFORE the last day?

If there is a day after the "Last day" it wasnt the last day. Same problem with the "last trumpet". if there is a trumpet after the "last trumpet" how can it be last one?

There is a trumpet today, the rapture, the LAST TRUMPET. Then after that, there is ANOTHER trumpet of Matthew 24:31, how can that be? It would make matthew 24:31 the last trumpet?

JUST THINKING OUT LOUD fellas. Dont get mad at me ANyone got an answer to these?

There are many last days. Have to look at context.