Water Baptism-What Does God's Word Say?

[Sketch]

I heard some discussion earlier about Paul not baptizing. I think some are drawing the wrong conclusion there.
Reading the context will help.

1 Corinthians 1:13-17
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

 

[djdearing]

That brings up an interesting point. If baptism (ceremonial washing) was a part of the law, as some claim, then it would have been nailed to the cross with the rest of the law.

Hebrews 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Those kinds of washings were part of the law. As far as my research has taken me, baptism was a Jewish tradition long before John, and I'm quite sure it would have come about from the many washings involved in the priestly duties. They saw the ceremonial picture of purification and applied that to proselyte conversion too. This tradition was obviously intimately associated with the priestly duties because we see Christ's baptism by John as fulfilling righteousness, and thus beginning his priestly duty for his 3.5 year ministry with Israel.

All that being said, it's still tradition, which can still serve to point to the inward reality. My point is that it doesn't appear necessary for Gentiles to perform a ceremonial Jewish tradition in origin. I think if we were among those first gentiles in the early church, we too wouldn't think anything of participating. Why wouldn't we, as y'all say, submit to it in that case. Even 2000 years ago we see how far tradition goes, but to qualify any external act upon conversion as a necessity makes "the cross of none effect" in my opinion.

 

[djdearing]

Thank you for the clarification. My belief is that all scripture is meant for our instruction.. Peter and the apostles did not make any distinction that would indicate baptism was only for Jews.. They followed Jesus instructions to baptize believers, as did the early church. Paul apparently believed that as well, evidenced by his immediate desire to be baptized upon belief, and his references to other believers that were baptized.

The connection to circumcision, to my understanding, is that circumcision was a Jewish man's response to God's command. It set them apart from Gentiles. If a Jewish man had said "I don't see the need to mutilate myself simply to show that I am a Jew", then do you think God would have considered him to be a Jew? This was not an optional thing for them...

Baptism is our response to God (Jesus') command.... it is to set us apart, and to show we have accepted the calling. I don't believe it is an optional thing for us, either.

And, Sketch is correct, it IS a big deal....

Hornetguy, what do you think of this?

You say it is Jesus' command that we be water baptized? I've already made the point that Paul never once declared any such thing and never once commanded baptism. (on a side note, Paul being baptized upon conversion is only evidence that it was clearly a Jewish practice! He didn't receive every mystery given to him on the road to Damascus).

Anyways, I meant to say Jesus' command to "go and teach all nations, baptizing them" was an explicit command to the Twelve, was it not?

 

[Sketch]

Hebrews 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Those kinds of washings were part of the law. As far as my research has taken me, baptism was a Jewish tradition long before John, and I'm quite sure it would have come about from the many washings involved in the priestly duties. They saw the ceremonial picture of purification and applied that to proselyte conversion too. This tradition was obviously intimately associated with the priestly duties because we see Christ's baptism by John as fulfilling righteousness, and thus beginning his priestly duty for his 3.5 year ministry with Israel.

All that being said, it's still tradition, which can still serve to point to the inward reality. My point is that it doesn't appear necessary for Gentiles to perform a ceremonial Jewish tradition in origin. I think if we were among those first gentiles in the early church, we too wouldn't think anything of participating. Why wouldn't we, as y'all say, submit to it in that case. Even 2000 years ago we see how far tradition goes, but to qualify any external act upon conversion as a necessity makes "the cross of none effect" in my opinion.

I still don't see the connection. A ceremonial washing is never called a baptism, and baptism is never called a ceremonial washing. How can they be one and the same?

 

[djdearing]

I still don't see the connection. A ceremonial washing is never called a baptism, and baptism is never called a ceremonial washing. How can they be one and the same?

I'm not saying baptism is the washings of the law, I'm just saying it appears that the ritual of baptism had it's origins in the the priestly duties. (Leviticus 16:4). Leviticus 16:23-24)

Regardless of whether this was the origin of baptism, Jewish history shows that Jewish cleansing ceremonies that resembled baptism clearly existed during the intertestamental period prior to John the Baptist. You've heard the word "mikveh"?

 

[Sketch]

You've heard the word "mikveh"?

Nope.
Is that Oy's little sister?
Like Mik Veh and Oy Veh? lol

 

[djdearing]

Nope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh

 

[Sketch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh

That's helpful, thanks.
A pool for ceremonial cleansing and purification for a convert to Judaism. A baptism of sorts.
Still a curiosity that the word baptism was used if the two are closely related.

 

[djdearing]

That's helpful, thanks.
A pool for ceremonial cleansing and purification for a convert to Judaism. A baptism of sorts.
Still a curiosity that the word baptism was used if the two are closely related.

Probably has to do with languages and NT Greek.

 

[Sketch]

Probably has to do with languages and NT Greek.

The definition gives some insight.

baptizo - 907
bap-tid'-zo
from a derivative of baptw - bapto 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.

 

[Ignorun]

Hornetguy, what do you think of this?

You say it is Jesus' command that we be water baptized? I've already made the point that Paul never once declared any such thing and never once commanded baptism. (on a side note, Paul being baptized upon conversion is only evidence that it was clearly a Jewish practice! He didn't receive every mystery given to him on the road to Damascus).


Anyways, I meant to say Jesus' command to "go and teach all nations, baptizing them" was an explicit command to the Twelve, was it not?

What baptism do you believe Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 1?
Only Jews are to be baptized?

 

[Blik]

Right. Baptism, after all, is only a ceremony. A ceremony is an outward demonstration of an inward reality. Which is the important part?

I don't think baptism is ONLY a ceremony. Baptism has spiritual power. If we make it only a ceremony we are denying God, denying the power of the Lord. That is a very serious thing to do.

 

[Sketch]

I don't think baptism is ONLY a ceremony. Baptism has spiritual power. If we make it only a ceremony we are denying God, denying the power of the Lord. That is a very serious thing to do.

Do you believe there is salvation in infant baptism?

 

[djdearing]

What baptism do you believe Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 1?
Only Jews are to be baptized?

Well first I'd recommend reading my other comments in the thread but...

Of course there were Gentiles baptized also, but let me try to explain. The ritual that was named baptism in the NT was a common practice at least as early as the intertestamental period. For my next comment, consider the next passage:

Acts 15:20-22
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Years after Peter preached to Cornelius, Paul had been taking the gospel to the Gentiles and eventually the Jerusalem council came to recognize Paul's unique apostleship and gave him the right hand of fellowship. Take note that Paul always went to the synagogue first everywhere he went. Why? Why wouldn't he? He desired his kinsmen in flesh be saved, but the point I'm trying to make is that 'in EVERY CITY Moses was being read in the synagogues every sabbath'.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

My point being, they would have been very familiar with the Jewish ritual or custom of baptism, especially for conversion. Gentiles in every city were accepting the Jewish Messiah, so submitting to water baptism would not have been a strange thing at all.

Today, all over the world, the church is predominately Gentile. We aren't going to the synagogues to learn about God. It's also no surprise that by in large Christendom has adopted the custom or ritual of baptism as their own, but it's also one of the most debated topics in all of Christianity. Who performs it, how is it done, when is it done, what does it accomplish, and on and on it goes.

Notice in Acts 15 the instruction to Gentiles from the council to abstain from pollutions of idols. Have you had that issue lately? They were surrounded by Jews and they were not to offend them. As we know Paul goes on to write to them saying, the idol is nothing in the world and if someone bids you to a feast, ask no question for conscience sake (somebody else's conscience).

 

[Sketch]

My point being, they would have been very familiar with the Jewish ritual or custom of baptism, especially for conversion. Gentiles in every city were accepting the Jewish Messiah, so submitting to water baptism would not have been a strange thing at all.

It seems that we can't call it "the Jewish ritual or custom of baptism", since there is no such thing. Maybe "ceremonial bathing/washing"? I'm not sure what to call it either. But it was not called baptism to my knowledge. (which is limited, I know)

 

[djdearing]

It seems that we can't call it "the Jewish ritual or custom of baptism", since there is no such thing. Maybe "ceremonial bathing/washing"? I'm not sure what to call it either. But it was not called baptism to my knowledge. (which is limited, I know)

My answer to that would be yes and no. I'm quoting John the Baptist when he says this, "And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."

John, the Jew said this, but did he say "baptizing" in English? Of course not. We are reading the New Testament in English, translated from Greek...

Jesus wasn't called Jesus, he was called Yeshua or something really close to that. That's Joshua when translated from Hebrew, but it's Jesus when translated from Greek. That's why the KJV calls the Old Testament Joshua "Jesus" in Acts 7:45.

"Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus (Joshua) into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;"

I think you get my point. It's all in the tricky science of translation.

 

[Sketch]

John, the Jew said this, but did he say "baptizing" in English? Of course not. We are reading the New Testament in English, translated from Greek...

The Greek text uses the word baptizo. If it also used that word in reference to ceremonial washings, then we would have something. I did a quick scan of the related verses and found something significant. See below. The Pharisees expected Messiah to baptize. Say what?

John 1:24-27
Now the Pharisees who had been sent 25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

 

[Ignorun]

Well first I'd recommend reading my other comments in the thread but...

Of course there were Gentiles baptized also, but let me try to explain. The ritual that was named baptism in the NT was a common practice at least as early as the intertestamental period. For my next comment, consider the next passage:

Acts 15:20-22
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Years after Peter preached to Cornelius, Paul had been taking the gospel to the Gentiles and eventually the Jerusalem council came to recognize Paul's unique apostleship and gave him the right hand of fellowship. Take note that Paul always went to the synagogue first everywhere he went. Why? Why wouldn't he? He desired his kinsmen in flesh be saved, but the point I'm trying to make is that 'in EVERY CITY Moses was being read in the synagogues every sabbath'.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

My point being, they would have been very familiar with the Jewish ritual or custom of baptism, especially for conversion. Gentiles in every city were accepting the Jewish Messiah, so submitting to water baptism would not have been a strange thing at all.

Today, all over the world, the church is predominately Gentile. We aren't going to the synagogues to learn about God. It's also no surprise that by in large Christendom has adopted the custom or ritual of baptism as their own, but it's also one of the most debated topics in all of Christianity. Who performs it, how is it done, when is it done, what does it accomplish, and on and on it goes.

Notice in Acts 15 the instruction to Gentiles from the council to abstain from pollutions of idols. Have you had that issue lately? They were surrounded by Jews and they were not to offend them. As we know Paul goes on to write to them saying, the idol is nothing in the world and if someone bids you to a feast, ask no question for conscience sake (somebody else's conscience).

Thank You DJ
I appreciate your efforts, your sincerity. Very much so. Will respond more later.

 

[djdearing]

The Greek text uses the word baptizo. If it also used that word in reference to ceremonial washings, then we would have something. I did a quick scan of the related verses and found something significant. See below. The Pharisees expected Messiah to baptize. Say what?

John 1:24-27
Now the Pharisees who had been sent 25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27 He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

Check it out Sketch,

Remember those "divers washings" of Hebrews 9:10 ? Here's the Lexicon for washings...baptismois (from baptizo) !
washings,βαπτισμοῖς
(baptismois)909: (the act of) a dipping or washingfrom baptizó

Great verse example you brought up as well. The Pharisees were the ones who should've been doing any baptizing, so they were basically saying, hey dude, by what authority are you doing this?

 

[Sketch]

Check it out Sketch,

Remember those "divers washings" of Hebrews 9:10 ? Here's the Lexicon for washings...baptismois (from baptizo) !
washings,βαπτισμοῖς
(baptismois)909: (the act of) a dipping or washingfrom baptizó

Great verse example you brought up as well. The Pharisees were the ones who should've been doing any baptizing, so they were basically saying, hey dude, by what authority are you doing this?

We are making a more solid case now. Here are two more scriptures under that 909 Strong's number.
The Greek word is baptismois. (as in your definition above) It is translated to English as "washing".

Mark 7:4
When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)

Mark 7:8 KJV
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.