OSAS and "Never saved in the first place" Refuted

[MahogonySnail]

Those who hold to a OSAS doctrine are usually forced to conclude that if a Christian falls into grievous unrepentant sin, or even walks away from Christ, in an offhanded way they claim "they were never a true believer or Christian in the first place."

How true is this belief?

To me it is illogical.

It's equivalent to saying that if your wife divorces you, she was never your wife in the first place. Or that she wasn't a real wife.

What do the scriptures say? Do scriptures teach that it is possible for a righteous person to turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity? The answer is yes :

Eze 18:26 When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done, he shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked turns away from his wickedness that he has committed and does that which is lawful and righteous, he shall save his soul alive.

Unfortunately, those who hold to OSAS think that it is impossible for a righteous person to turn away, when scripture shows they can.

It is possible for children of God to believe the truth, become Christians and later (1) Depart from the faith, (2) Heed seducing spirits, (3) Take up with doctrines of devils, (4) Speak lies in hypocrisy and (5) Have their consciences seared (1 Timothy 4:1-2). It is said concerning some that they have ****ation because they have cast off their first faith (1 Timothy 5:12) and of others that their faith was overthrown (2 Timothy 2:18). Some made shipwreck of faith (1 Timothy 1:19) and others believed for awhile and then fell away (Luke 8:13).

The Lord cast his own servant into outer darkness (Matthew 25:14) and took away from the vine those who would not bear fruit (John 15). Notice these were in the vine - in Christ who is the vine - and were later taken away by the Lord himself. They were cast into the fire.

God's grace never fails but it is possible for us to fall from grace (Galatians 5:4). If we could be saved in that condition, we would be saved without the grace of God!

If a brother sins, he does not need to be baptized again - he is already God's child. He needs to repent and pray (Acts 8:22). By walking in the light as given in God's Word, we have fellowship with other Christians and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:11). This daily cleansing comes to those who faithfully serve the Lord. Those who will not serve him, who reject his faith and turn from his grace, will be finally lost.

http://www.thebible.net/introchurch/ch32.html

 

[MahogonySnail]

http://www.thebible.net/introchurch/ch32.html GOD'S EXAMPLE - ISRAEL
The Israelites were God's children during the Old Testament period. "Ye are the children of the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 14:1). They were an holy people unto the Lord. Notice from 1 Corinthians 10:1-10 the many things God said about them: (1) They were baptized into Moses. (2) They ate spiritual food. (3) They drank spiritual drink. (4) They were overthrown in the wilderness. (5) They lusted after evil things. (6) They were idolaters. (7) They committed fornication. (8) They fell - 23,000 in one day.

(9) They tempted Christ. (10) They murmured. Some were even killed in the very act of fornication (Numbers 25:8). God said that those who are guilty of these works of the flesh cannot be saved (Galatians 5:19-21).

It is often said that if one is once a child of God, he is always a child of God. It is possible for a child to be disinherited. God said he would disinherit his disobedient children. "I will smite them with pestilence, and disinherit them" (Numbers 14:12). God is longsuffering and gives his children opportunity to repent but he will by no means clear the guilty (Numbers 14:18).

What happened to Israel is an example for us today. We are God's children. He has reserved for us a home in heaven but he will disinherit us if we prove unfaithful. If we forget God, we will be cast into hell. "My people have forgotten me days without number" (Jeremiah 2:32). "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God" (Psalm 9:17).

 

[Thaddaeus]

Unfortunately, those who hold to OSAS think that it is impossible for a righteous person to turn away, when scripture shows they can.



http://www.thebible.net/introchurch/ch32.html

You believe what you want and I will believe God is able to keep me in His arms there is a Bibical doctrine in the scriptures that will contradict your belief though, where does the doctrine of chastisement come in to play, if we sin our Father corrects us if we don't listen after that He does this;

1co 5:5To deliver such an one unto SATAN for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


I trusted God for my salvation, I will have faith in Him, and the fact He keeps His promises.when He says saved then I am saved, don't really care what man says, For God said that He was able to keep me from falling and keep me fautless. God says He can keep Me saved, you say I can unsave myself ,HHHHHUUUUUUUMMMMMMMM, Let's see, yep I believe I will trust God over You !!!

Jude 1:21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.Jude 1:22And of some have compassion, making a difference:Jude 1:23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,Jude 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

,But where is your faith In God, for your salvation, if you can walk away from it, then you have to trust yourself instead of God is that messed up or what ?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Hey, I'm not the one ignoring scripture, and making a faulty doctrine (called OSAS) on one or two select scriptures. I'm using the whole bible here, old testament too. It says..

Eze 18:26 When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity ...

Shows that righteous people (yes Christians are called righteous) , can turn away from it. For the Christian this is equivalent to turning away from Christ.

But let me rephrase Ezekial for you in the way the OSAS doctrine must read it:

Eze 18:26 (OSAS version) When a righteous one turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity it shows he wasn't a righteous person to begin with.



God will not be pleased if we "draw back".

Heb 10:38 Now, "the Just shall live by faith. But if he draws back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him."

 

[MahogonySnail]

Consider these verses

Jas 5:19 Brothers, if anyone among you err from the truth, and if anyone turns him back,


The verse says a brother or sister in Christ, may err from truth.

Apparently this is not possible according to those who profess OSAS. A saved person cannot ever err from truth according to them. Well Jas 5:19 seems to say the exact opposite.


Jas 5:20 know that he who turns back the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


This verse says, that a believer in Christ who gets off track, is in danger of their soul dying. Those who bring them back save their soul from death. I'm not sure what else the death of the soul means, than the loss of the soul for eternity.

According to OSAS belief, not only can a believer's soul never die (contradicting James 5:19), but if a soul dies, that soul still gets to go to heaven because they are always saved.

 

[Sinsear]

I dont believe in osas. I believe in Perseverance of the Saints. It's not the same. Basically Perseverance of the saints is the Calvinist doctrine that those who are truly saved will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation. It doesn't mean that a person who is truly saved will never lose faith or backslide at any time. But that they will ultimately persevere in faith (inspite of failures) such as not to lose their salvation. The doctrine of perseverance is rooted in God's unconditional election and Predestination . That is, since God is the One who chose and predestined the elect to salvation, therefore the elect will be saved. They might turn away from faith and give appearance of losing their salvation, but if they really are elect they will repent and ultimately return to faith, because God is the One ensuring their salvation.

 

[Sinsear]

We all sin everyday. Its not about being perfect. We cant loose our salvation if we really have it becuase even if we sin god will lead us to repentance if we are really chosen. But if you dont repent, and you dont show evidence of guilt and shame of your sin then you were never saved. I think we are forgetting the meaning of salvation. Its not just a prayer or an action. Its a miraculous act by god of changing our inner self from now on til eternity, so that when we once loved sin and hated righteousness, now we love righteousness and hate sin. Salvation is to be born again, in other words you become an entirely diffrent person. A new creation who hates sin and although we will still sin, we fight to repent of it and be righteous all the days of our lives. We seek only to please god and be closer to him daily. That is salvation. But we cannot gain it by any act we do. It is a free gift. And there is no number of sin that can cause us to lose it because if we continue in sin without a want for repentance then we were never really saved. And besides if we did nothing to gain our salvation, then we can do nothing to lose it.

 

[Sinsear]

1Peter 1:3-4
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,

 

[Mango_Nugget]

Let me put this here. I believe once a person accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, that they HAVE ETERNAL salvation. I take the Bible (ALL of it) as being God's "love letter" to mankind, and as it is from God, it is complete, pure and take it as just that. Having said that, I will bring a few verses to light and you can make of it what you will - that's your free will.
I will make this clear now - one who believes that once a man is saved does not have to say that a man was never saved if he turns away from God. This is purely an attitude problem (attitude being the direction of something or someone), where his heart has turned from God, and God will chastise (correct), or will call the saved one home.

Mark 3:28-29 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: (29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation:"
John 5:24 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:35-40 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me. and believe not. (37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that send me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 10:25-30 "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. (26) But ye believed not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (30) I and my Father are one."
Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

How can a person say that they can lose their salvation, and yet also claim to believe the Word of God to be complete, pure, and true. Such is a contradiction! To say that you believe the Bible, and then turn around and say that it's not all true is calling God a liar.

Just incase anyone out there believes that only some people are called to salvation, here are a few verses for you.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that and should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Those that use Ephesians 1:5 as their grounding for predestination of salvation, the whole chapter of Ephesians 1 is not talking about a select few people coming to salvation, but rather, those who are in Christ Jesus being predestinated into the image of Christ, and to the praise and glory of Christ!
Each time that predestination is mentioned in a verse in Ephesians chapter 1, I suggest that you read the verse that follows it. Better still, read the whole chapter to get it in the correct context. The above verse from 2 Peter clearly states that God is not willing that a single soul (not one person) perish (or as we know, to go into a Christless eternity spent in the Lake of Fire - which even Hell itself is cast into), but that ALL (that is EVERY person that has, is and will ever live) should come to the saving knowledge of Christ (to believe on, and call upon the name of Christ for salvation).

So, to set things straight, to say that a believer can lose his / her salvation because he / she does something against God is heracy! It goes against the very Word of God itself. A believer cannot lose their salvation, but rather, God will leave the believer to go in his / her ways for a little while, allowing the believer to repent. If the believer does not repent, God will chastise (correct by whatever means He decides to be right and necessary) that believer - even if he has turned his / her back on God. If then, the believer does not respond to God's correction, God might then take the believer home, so that they are no longer living in rebellion to Him (God).
Also, as God has promised eternal salvation to whoever believes, and God cannot lie, then once a person is saved, they are ETERNALLY saved!

I hope this shows what God says on the matter, as it is His Word!

 

[Thaddaeus]

Consider these verses

Jas 5:19 Brothers, if anyone among you err from the truth, and if anyone turns him back,


The verse says a brother or sister in Christ, may err from truth.

Apparently this is not possible according to those who profess OSAS. A saved person cannot ever err from truth according to them. Well Jas 5:19 seems to say the exact opposite.


Jas 5:20 know that he who turns back the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


This verse says, that a believer in Christ who gets off track, is in danger of their soul dying. Those who bring them back save their soul from death. I'm not sure what else the death of the soul means, than the loss of the soul for eternity.

According to OSAS belief, not only can a believer's soul never die (contradicting James 5:19), but if a soul dies, that soul still gets to go to heaven because they are always saved.

1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Thaddaeus]

1jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I am A Christian but I am not righteous, the righteousness I have is not mine But rather It belongs to my big Brother (Jesus). My righteous is filthy rags. I am sorry for you that you feel your righteous is enough for your salvation for that contradicts the Word of God itself .

Ro 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

 

[thefightinglamb]

I think the silliness of OSAS comes in when you consider this:

They believe that you haveto obey the command to believe in Jesus Christ and call upon his name, but they refuse to believe you have to obey anything else.

The most serious question becomes:

Why is there so much New Testament? Why wasn't Jesus clever enough to come up with a small baptist pamphlet like so many I have seen being tossed around?

So you either accept that that is all you have to obey and the rest of the new testament is but repetition or...what else can you believe?

On the contrary, you kind of have to believe that anyone trying to follow Christ is condemned! Why are you reading your Bible poor boy trying to save yourself? Why are you following the Lord, do you think you don't need his actions alone?

But anyone who follows the Lord knows that it would be better to be straight off condemned then hear the voice of the Lord and neglect it.

Remember Hebrews: If those who heard an angel thundering from heaven received a just punishment, how much more those who hear God's voice and neglect it! It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

More to say.

But God bless, Don't fume up just consider

Jesus

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am A Christian but I am not righteous, the righteousness I have is not mine But rather It belongs to my big Brother (Jesus). My righteous is filthy rags. I am sorry for you that you feel your righteous is enough for your salvation for that contradicts the Word of God itself .

Ro 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

Peace be to you
Thaddaeus are you trying to tell us that Jesus christ came in vain.You seem to quot old testament scripture without any placement of the New covenant.Which is Jesus christ,s example which was Given of God.Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

P.s.God is a God of Works his works bring salvation and his son Jesus Christ
John 5,17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The whole reason Jesus came was for are example,he was very fruitfull;The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
More of Jesus works;http://www.kingjamesbible.com/B43C017.htm

romans
Faith is a law;
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
math 5,16
God's glorey;Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

john 10,32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

eph 2,For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1st tim Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate.

2nd timThat the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

brethrin let us walk even as he walked.Full of Love and Good works. watch yee fall not into condemnation;But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Love a friend in God

 

[BLC]

Let's do something that the scriptures teach, concerning the things that we are to speak, and compare spiritual with spiritual in (1Cor 2:13). We believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be this; Christ came as was promised in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in His flesh on the cross. He took upon His own body the sin of the world and was judged for that sin through death. He was buried and rose again on the third day. Through His death, burial and resurrection He put away all sin forever. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their sins and trespasses unto them, but had imputed them unto His Son, Jesus Christ. Christ was the Lamb that was slain, having all sin transferred to Him, to take away the sin of the world. If we believe this gospel by confessing the Lord Jesus Christ with our mouth and in our heart believe that God raised Him from the dead we shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I think we all agree on that. Now let's compare that to the understanding that we can lose or do something to forfeit the salvation and everlasting life that was promised once we believe. The premise of the gospel is based upon the justice of God that needed all sin to be judged. It would take the blood of a sinless and spotless human sacrifice, offered to God, for sin to be judged and to meet the just demand of a Holy God. Man, without God, had nothing to do with the plan of God that was executed to judge the sin of man to redeem man from his sin. It was executed without sinful man being involved in any aspect. God's redemption for man was appropriated by God, through God's Son, to redeem man from all sin and be justified to receive God's righteousness by faith. Anything that God did for man could only be received by man though faith, in what God had done for man through Christ.

All the work of God's plan, that provided redemption to man, was executed by God's Son without any work on man's part, thus making redemption God's complete and total work and not man's. Man's part is to believe and receive what God has provided through His Son, Jesus Christ. However, when man believes by faith, man has nothing to do with the salvation that God provides to Him by imputation. It has to be by imputation because it has nothing to do with man being qualified, in any way, to receive it other than being a sinner in need of salvation. That salvation puts us in Christ and seals us with the Holy Spirit, and no man can pluck us out of God's hand (or handiwork). Because we are in Christ, we have been given by the Father to the Son. Jesus said that all the Father has given me none of them are lost (John 17:12, 18:9) and no man can pluck them out of my hand nor my Father's hand (John 10:28,29). So we, who believe and are hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3 which is a fixed position that is concealed and locked), have a double protection from the Father and the Son and it is all sealed by the Holy Spirit. All this has been provided by God's grace through faith.

Can man be expected by God to keep and not lose what God judicially provided by grace and through faith, when man could not provide it for himself? If man could keep it, then it would not be by grace nor would it be received by faith. If that is true, man would lose it in a second the first time he failed. There is a lot more to be said but for now that is it.

 

[BLC]

When we first believed, we received the gospel and Jesus Christ by grace and through faith (Eph 2:8,9). As we have received Christ, we are to walk in Him (Col 2:6, 2Cor 5:7). We received a gift of eternal life from God who had promised, when we believed by faith (John 3:15,16, Rom 6:23). Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not yet seen (Heb 11:1). For we are saved by hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for (Rom 8:24). Jesus said in (John 6:63) that many had seen Him and believed not. He came unto His own and His own received Him not (John 1:11). Jesus said to Thomas, because you have seen me, you believe; blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed (John 20:29). The just shall live by faith (Hab 2:4, Rom 1:17). We purify our hearts by faith (Acts 15:9). We are sanctified by faith (Acts 26:18). The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith (Rom 1:17) and is unto and upon all them that believe by faith (Rom 3:22, Phil 3:9). We are justified by faith (Rom 3:28,30, Rom 5:1). We have received the Spirit by the hearing of faith (Gal 3:2). Jesus Christ himself came here as a promise of faith (Gal 3:22). Christ dwells in our very own hearts by faith (Eph 3:17). In (Heb 11) we see that all these OT saints (some 18 times BY FAITH) offered sacrifices, overcame death, were warned, called, sojourned, received promises, blessed others, escaped from the enemy, suffered affliction, forsook the world (Egypt), escaped God's judgment, and some who had obtained a good report through faith received not the promise so that we could be made perfect with them. Everything we have from God is by faith and is not seen because it is eternal (2Cor 4:18);

'While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal'.

Think of all these things that God has given to us and every one of them we have received by faith. Why are we having such a problem with the free gift of eternal life (John 10:28)? Jesus Christ is the one who gives unto those who believe eternal life and they shall never perish (John 10:28) Is eternal life not received by faith through Jesus Christ as everything else that we have received from God? Do we make God a lair and charge Him with being unfaithful to what He has promised when we believe? When we believe it is imputed unto us (put on our record) for righteousness and that includes eternal life. Jesus Christ is eternal life and our righteousness. It is His eternal life, as the power of God, that keeps us (1Pt 1:2-5), through the Holy Spirit (which is God in John 4:24) that seals us with that life until the day of redemption (Eph 1:13, 4:30). We had no power or ability to pay for our sins and He did that for us. In the same way we have no power of our own to keep eternal life, but God keeps it for us. I can't 'sin or fail away' God's keeping power nor more than man or the demons from hell could stop Him from being crucified and resurrected from the dead. He was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25), right! When we believed, being also raised with Him (Eph 2:6), we have His justification not ours. We have nothing to do with being justified because we are justified by faith in the work that was finished (John 19:30) on the cross. The work that Christ began in us, when we believed, will continue because He will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6). Anyone that teaches otherwise is not trusting in the one who died and rose again and the power of an endless life (Heb 7:16)

 

[Thaddaeus]

Peace be to you
Thaddaeus are you trying to tell us that Jesus christ came in vain.You seem to quot old testament scripture without any placement of the New covenant.Which is Jesus christ,s example which was Given of God.Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

I didn't know Ro 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not onewas old testament, sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MahogonySnail]

Can anyone respond to the verses in James which I posted about the death of the soul?

OSAS believers, do you think that death of the soul as a result of a believer erring, results in them going to heaven?

You'd have to try and explain how a dead soul can make it to heaven?

These verses prove two things which OSAS don't believe

a) the ability of a true christian to err from truth (either deliberately, due to satanic deception or otherwise)

b) the death of a believers soul, which I can only presume results in loss of eternal life.

OSAS believers, if you don't believe these things. What motive do you have for turning a sinner back from his erring way as it says in James? Little motive at all I would say, if you think that person is going to heaven anyway.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I am sorry for you that you feel your righteous is enough for your salvation for that contradicts the Word of God itself

People who don't believe in OSAS do not trust in their own righteous. Rather I am not so foolish to presume or think that God will save despite their own disobedience. Such is what happened to the children of Israel. And old testament is given as warning from us.

Don't try and make some silly argument about how Christians can't ever turn away from Christ and be lost. I know they can. It happened to King Solomon. It happened to the children of Israel. It happened to Judas Iscariot. There's many other examples in the bible and I'm sure of people we know. They can deny Christ, they can really do bad things to God's people. Who knows why? Maybe like Judas Iscariot, satan enters into them. Maybe unresolved problems in their lives gives satan an open door. If they turn back again, great, but if they don't and die in their state, do we presume God will still be pleased with them? When the bible says, anyone who turns back, God will not be pleased with them (hebrews)

 

[MahogonySnail]

Let me put this here. I believe once a person accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, that they HAVE ETERNAL salvation. I take the Bible (ALL of it) as being God's "love letter" to mankind, and as it is from God, it is complete, pure and take it as just that. Having said that, I will bring a few verses to light and you can make of it what you will - that's your free will.

If we take all of the bible, an electronic bible (eg e-sword) search for eternal life in other passages in the New Testament will reveal eternal life is frequently referred to as a gift, a promise, something we hope for, yet do yet have..we only have it in the sense of it being a promise, and the very real quickening and life which the Spirit gives our mortal bodies within us while we are on earth.

What we really have in this life, is a promise of eternal life. Think about it logically. If you had eternal life right this very moment, you wouldn't be able to die the first death, you would live in a perpetual state of eternal life from the moment you received Christ. Rather, I know scripture teaches eternal life is something given after we die once, it is a reward, a gift. Eternal death is also something which is only given after this life. To say that people have eternal death in this life doesn't make sense. There's a first death, and judgement to come first before the rewards (or punishment) are given out.

I will make this clear now - one who believes that once a man is saved does not have to say that a man was never saved if he turns away from God. This is purely an attitude problem (attitude being the direction of something or someone), where his heart has turned from God, and God will chastise (correct), or will call the saved one home

So the saved one, despite their disobedience and living a happy life of sin, is gladly received into his heavenly home?

Mark 3:28-29 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: (29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation:"
John 5:24 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:35-40 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (36) But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me. and believe not. (37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that send me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 10:25-30 "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. (26) But ye believed not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (30) I and my Father are one."
Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."


How can a person say that they can lose their salvation, and yet also claim to believe the Word of God to be complete, pure, and true. Such is a contradiction! To say that you believe the Bible, and then turn around and say that it's not all true is calling God a liar.

Taking these verses in isolation is only half the picture. What about abiding in Christ the vine, what about persevering in obedience and doing what Christ commanded, what about being a faithful servant, what about the example of Israel's disobedience, what about the verses in scripture saying that God will and can blot people out of the Book of Life? What about the warning at the end of Revelations about having your part in eternal life taken away? What about the scriptures as I posted previously, saying a righteous man if he forsakes righteousness will die? Goodness, do you think Judas Iscariot went to heaven? Does none of that apply for Christians? We need to consider all of what scripture says.

Just incase anyone out there believes that only some people are called to salvation, here are a few verses for you.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that and should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Those that use Ephesians 1:5 as their grounding for predestination of salvation, the whole chapter of Ephesians 1 is not talking about a select few people coming to salvation, but rather, those who are in Christ Jesus being predestinated into the image of Christ, and to the praise and glory of Christ!
Each time that predestination is mentioned in a verse in Ephesians chapter 1, I suggest that you read the verse that follows it. Better still, read the whole chapter to get it in the correct context. The above verse from 2 Peter clearly states that God is not willing that a single soul (not one person) perish (or as we know, to go into a Christless eternity spent in the Lake of Fire - which even Hell itself is cast into), but that ALL (that is EVERY person that has, is and will ever live) should come to the saving knowledge of Christ (to believe on, and call upon the name of Christ for salvation).

I agree, right on.

So, to set things straight, to say that a believer can lose his / her salvation because he / she does something against God is heracy! It goes against the very Word of God itself. A believer cannot lose their salvation, but rather, God will leave the believer to go in his / her ways for a little while, allowing the believer to repent. If the believer does not repent, God will chastise (correct by whatever means He decides to be right and necessary) that believer - even if he has turned his / her back on God. If then, the believer does not respond to God's correction, God might then take the believer home, so that they are no longer living in rebellion to Him (God).

A comforting thought for pedophile ministers I'm sure. What makes you think that if a believer is living in rebellion on this earth, their attitude in heaven will be any different? I thought our opportunity for repenting etc was in this life, not in the next. Scriptures? Where are some scriptures showing God will take people home to a happy life in heaven because they've been naughty boys and girls?

Also, as God has promised eternal salvation to whoever believes, and God cannot lie, then once a person is saved, they are ETERNALLY saved!
I hope this shows what God says on the matter, as it is His Word!

Well it's not the complete picture in my opinion. In the mind of OSAS believers, you believe in Christ, you are saved forever, end of story. I believe the bible teaches a personal judgement or inquiry of every believer before granting them a long stay in heaven. I believe the bible teaches a review of a person's servitude to Christ, yes those unfaithful servants may get the same fate as an unbeliever. I believe the bible teaches that we must keep the faith otherwise we have fallen from grace. And if you fall from grace, it certainly implies you had grace to begin with. If you fall from grace, how can you still be certain of being saved. I believe the bible teaches to turn others from the errors of their ways so we save their soul from death. Did you read that right? Death. Does death sound like a happy home in heaven to you?

I can imagine, OSAS believers demanding and pleading to be let into heaven because they believed in Christ and fulfilled everything required according to their own doctrine, yet Christ refusing entry because of unresolved unforgiveness in their heart (parable of the unforgiving servant) , or because they beat his servants (parable of unfaithful servant), or because they were lawless ( I never knew you). That is the testimony of what would be considered real christians who have died, gone to heaven, and granted to come back to life. I posted one somewhere in this forum, about the African pastor who didn't forgive his wife, which happened at one of Reinharde Bonke's crusades.

 

[wisdomseeker]

People who don't believe in OSAS do not trust in their own righteous. Rather I am not so foolish to presume or think that God will save despite their own disobedience. Such is what happened to the children of Israel. And old testament is given as warning from us.

Don't try and make some silly argument about how Christians can't ever turn away from Christ and be lost. I know they can. It happened to King Solomon. It happened to the children of Israel. It happened to Judas Iscariot. There's many other examples in the bible and I'm sure of people we know. They can deny Christ, they can really do bad things to God's people. Who knows why? Maybe like Judas Iscariot, satan enters into them. Maybe unresolved problems in their lives gives satan an open door. If they turn back again, great, but if they don't and die in their state, do we presume God will still be pleased with them? When the bible says, anyone who turns back, God will not be pleased with them (hebrews)

Peace be to you
Just answering your question as to why;
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.

This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The answer is here
love a friend in God