Are there two gospels or ONE?

[Guojing]

He saw him die and resurrect.

But that escapes you.[/QUOTE]

If you are so confident it escaped me, why not just quote the sermon by Peter at Pentecost? Then all of us can see at which part Peter taught that ""Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and God resurrect him on the third day as a proof that all our sins are forgiven and we are now the righteousness of God in Christ"

You can't because Peter used the death and resurrection of Christ to verify that Jesus is indeed the Messiah and the Son of God that was promised to the Jews. There is a big difference between that and what Paul used the cross for.

 

[Absolutely]

But I haven't asked you to listen to "Feldic"... I never have listened to such an one.

What I am asking you to look at is how certain scriptures align (which I believe you are not aligning correctly).

Leviticus 23:10-12 has a SINGULAR "AN he lamb" ("ye shall offer [H6213a]"), whereas Leviticus 23:15-18 has "SEVEN he lambs" ("you shall present [H7126]")

[note where these are elsewhere used, including the "first mentions," and then how (same ideas) used also in the epistles...]


What I'm saying is that I believe you are using only so much human reasoning... (in your aligning of things)

Ironically you can not make a case that Jesus and the apostles preached a different gospel.

Thats what you need to do to make your case.
I say the bible harmonizes.
You say it conflicts.

Your problem is the lense you are using. You take a concept,and start there.
Incorrect.
Then you proceed to teach me " scripture alighnment"

I do not use your starting place.
I do not open my bible to promote my viewpoint. I see what IT SAYS.

IOW, you have to convince me that my verses have no merrit.

Take a look at " the law and the prophets. Were until john"

Now just humor me and pretend you are reading it without the "pauline" overemphasis.

There is no need to modify it.

None

But here there is that agenda.

That one verse is so in the way.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I've supplied many times in the past Ephesians 1:20-23 re: "the Church which is His body" ("when").


… here's what I've posted before, about "who" the Matt24/Mk13 (everything following the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'] of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from there!) involves especially:

In the Matt22 passage, verses 7-8 supply a specific SEQUENCE, with verse 7 referring to the events of 70ad ('he was WROTH' [see Lk21:23 in the 70ad section] 'and he sent forth his armies [see Lk21:20] and burned up their city') and then verse 8 telling of what happens AFTER THAT, "THEN SAITH HE to His servants"... Jesus was in Heaven during the "after 70ad" events, recall... yet this passage states "THEN SAITH HE to His servants...".

What we have in The Revelation, is (as stated in verse 1), "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [comp. 7:3 re: 144,000 "servants of our God"] things which must come to pass [comp. 4:1's "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." [i.e. not events over the course of some 2000 yrs], and there He discloses FURTHER INFORMATION on THAT very subject (regarding the "day and hour" [of Matt24:36] which He did not "know [PERFECT tense]" at the time that He SPOKE the Olivet Discourse, but here in Rev1:1 it says, "which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants..." some 60 years AFTER His death/resurrection... and which pertains to events "far future" [the last 7 years before His Second Coming to the earth; i.e. WELL AFTER the 70ad events of verse 7 in Matt22 [<---so this passage of Matt22:8-14 is still about Israel [though far-future] doing the "INVITING" [see Matt24:14/26:13 (and paralleling Rev7:9,14 "coming out of" 2nd half of trib)], that is, the INVITING TO their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [DURING the trib years (future to our Rapture!)], promised to Israel... and their "INVITING" takes place even after "the Church which is His body" has been Raptured out [which scriptural evidence re: ITS timing/sequence I won't go into in this post, which is already long ]).

 

[Absolutely]

^ I've supplied many times in the past Ephesians 1:20-23 re: "the Church which is His body" ("when").


… here's what I've posted before, about "who" the Matt24/Mk13 (everything following the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'] of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from there!) involves especially:

In the Matt22 passage, verses 7-8 supply a specific SEQUENCE, with verse 7 referring to the events of 70ad ('he was WROTH' [see Lk21:23 in the 70ad section] 'and he sent forth his armies [see Lk21:20] and burned up their city') and then verse 8 telling of what happens AFTER THAT, "THEN SAITH HE to His servants"... Jesus was in Heaven during the "after 70ad" events, recall... yet this passage states "THEN SAITH HE to His servants...".

What we have in The Revelation, is (as stated in verse 1), "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [comp. 7:3 re: 144,000 "servants of our God"] things which must come to pass [comp. 4:1's "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." [i.e. not events over the course of some 2000 yrs], and there He discloses FURTHER INFORMATION on THAT very subject (regarding the "day and hour" [of Matt24:36] which He did not "know [PERFECT tense]" at the time that He SPOKE the Olivet Discourse, but here in Rev1:1 it says, "which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants..." some 60 years AFTER His death/resurrection... and which pertains to events "far future" [the last 7 years before His Second Coming to the earth; i.e. WELL AFTER the 70ad events of verse 7 in Matt22 [<---so this passage of Matt22:8-14 is still about Israel [though far-future] doing the "INVITING" [see Matt24:14/26:13 (and paralleling Rev7:9,14 "coming out of" 2nd half of trib)], that is, the INVITING TO their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [DURING the trib years (future to our Rapture!)], promised to Israel... and their "INVITING" takes place even after "the Church which is His body" has been Raptured out [which scriptural evidence re: ITS timing/sequence I won't go into in this post, which is already long ]).

I agree with some of what you say.
I agree with Paul 100%
I love the epistles.

I disagree with the excuding notions that the paul only teachings erroneously and needlessly introduce.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, so you agree with some of what I've just written. That's probably progress.

I've also written in past posts, how the disciples' question to Jesus in Matthew 24:3 [re: the end [singular] of the age [singular]"] was based on what He had ALREADY SPOKEN TO THEM about in Matthew 13:30,39,40,49-50 [when the angels will "REAP"], which they understood [correctly] from the previous chapter's [12:32] "the age [singular] to come" to be [what WE now label as] "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" (that they had been promised, and well-knew of). What they DIDN'T understand about it was ITS TIMING (as evidenced in their question of Him in Acts 1, after having spent 40d of Him "speaking [to them] of things pertaining to the kingdom of God"--they still had no clue that it was yet "far future" to them, at that point; they did not grasp that He would be away a loooooong time before the promised and prophesied MK would commence, and that "this present age [singular]" would be intervening [with a starting point and a very definite ending point as it pertains to its "location/existence on the earth," that is, at its Rapture (the Olivet Discourse does not cover THAT SUBJECT, but instead the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK upon His "return" to the earth)])

 

[Absolutely]

Okay, so you agree with some of what I've just written. That's probably progress.

I've also written in past posts, how the disciples' question to Jesus in Matthew 24:3 [re: the end [singular] of the age [singular]"] was based on what He had ALREADY SPOKEN TO THEM about in Matthew 13:30,39,40,49-50 [when the angels will "REAP"], which they understood [correctly] from the previous chapter's [12:32] "the age [singular] to come" to be [what WE now label as] "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom" (that they had been promised, and well-knew of). What they DIDN'T understand about it was ITS TIMING (as evidenced in their question of Him in Acts 1, after having spent 40d of Him "speaking [to them] of things pertaining to the kingdom of God"--they still had no clue that it was yet "far future" to them, at that point; they did not grasp that He would be away a loooooong time before the promised and prophesied MK would commence, and that "this present age [singular]" would be intervening [with a starting point and a very definite ending point as it pertains to its "location/existence on the earth," that is, at its Rapture (the Olivet Discourse does not cover THAT SUBJECT, but instead the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK upon His "return" to the earth)])

I was one of the first to point the gospel TO the Jews as DIFFERENT in it's approach several years ago.
You guys are PARTIALLY correct.
Partially.

The error is in thowing the baby out with the bath water.

Error in emphacising into oblivion that " who is it written to" concept.

You guys stop just short of saying "Romans is just for romans"

I agree with Paulines on truth. I would also be a pauline if I didn't know too much to let that happen.
You guys like paul?
So do I.

I also like Jesus,Peter,John,revelation, Samuel,Exodus,and others.

Salvation is not Paul,praying like Paul,or hanging on every word Paul says.

The entrance is a person,Jesus,and the walk is JESUS AND THE H S.

God speaks through his word.
The whole book.

And nobody thinks the disciples fully understood the dbr. Nobody thinks that.

 

[Absolutely]

"Okay, so you agree with some of what I've just written. That's probably progress. "

I have always agreed in part.
I get off the pauline train at the first mention of Jesus and the H S not knowing how to write the non pauline writings.

The pauline only train is way too confining.
Jesus knew what he was doing outside of paul

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ in that same vein, no one is saying that the Holy Spirit/Jesus did not know "how to write the non pauline writings"

I appreciate the following quote:

"To be one of the twelve apostles it was necessary to have been an eyewitness of His deeds and a listener to His words (Acts 1:21). Matthias met this requirement and was therefore divinely chosen to fill the place of Judas. Some teach that Paul should have been put in the apostolate as the twelfth. But Paul could not have been one of the twelve apostles for he did not follow the Lord Jesus during the days of His earthly ministry. He did not know Christ after the flesh, but his acquaintance with Him began when he beheld Him in resurrection-glory. All his [Paul's] ministry, the gospel he preached, the glorious truths he taught, had their blessed source in the risen and exalted Christ. He therefore owned no other source, no other authority, but God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." -- Gaebelein, on Galatians 1 (Commentary; source: Bible Hub)

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]

The gospels are primarily focused on "prophesied truths" (prophesied in the OT), whereas Paul was given to disclose some things that had theretofore been unprophesied (or kept secret/hidden in God), like Jews & Gentiles together IN "ONE BODY" [AS ONE] (yes, in OT times it was prophesied that Gentiles would be "blessed" also, and that will indeed still take place AFTER our Rapture [the Rapture pertains to the "ONE BODY" / "the Church which is HIS BODY"], but that will then be as it is described in the Olivet Discourse, like in Matt25:31-34 and its context [where the "Sheep" and "goats" of the nations are called either "ye BLESSED" or "ye cursed" and it is noted whether they either AIDED or DID NOT AID "the least of these My brethren" (who are NOT the ones BEING judged/separated in that context--I believe these in v.40 are a believing remnant of Jews/Israel of that future time period, the trib (as in other related passages)]); many other truths pertaining solely to "the Church which is His body" [wherein there is neither Jew nor Gentile in our standing before God IN CHRIST; yet, as we see in "The Revelation," the "144,000 [singular nation]" are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [plural]" but I believe they are all/both sections "saints" in Rev7 (yet being described distinctly because they are not a part of "the Church which is His BODY" that has already been raptured out well before this point in the chronology); etc... things like that...

 

[iamsoandso]

In post #410 page 21 I attempted to point out that in Revelation 5 in the dialog it states that none were found to look on the things found in the 7 sealed scroll nor open them. It goes on to state that the Lamb was found worthy and states the reason why is because he "was slain"(past tense) and then each seal is loosed (Rev.6:1-Rev.8:1).

It seems odd then to see Jesus Christ to have spoken of any of these things anywhere in the Gospels "before he was slain" or looked on things before he was slain when the scripture's in Revelation 5 states no one was able to do so. Why I say this is that many I note attempt to backtrack this into the things Jesus said before the point of him being slain in the four Gospels and relate them to the things found in the sealed scroll.

For most of the past two thousand years since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was given Christians have tried to undestand it's contents and intermingled the things sealed in the seven sealed scroll with the things spoken prior to the Lords DBR but as we know none of us agree on it's meaning fully. The Scriptures tell us that the things in the seven sealed scroll could not be looked on or loosed until after he was slain and so trying to equate them into what Jesus said prior to them being loosed is probbably why none can resolve this.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I believe the Revelation 4-5 is a "judgment scene" [throne] and that this explains what is being stated there. It's not that Jesus couldn't refer to some of the same things [prophetically, in the OD] (like, where I believe "the beginning of birth PANGS" align with "the SEALS" of Rev6), but that it is saying that His "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4 (similar to 2Th2:7b-8a); etc] cannot take place apart from Him and His having resurrected. [Seal #1 correlating with Matt24:4/Mt13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" aka the "man of sin be revealed" at the START of the DOTL time period... as prophesied in the OT (2Th2:9's "whose coming" equaling the Dan9:27a[26] "prince THAT SHALL COME" / "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" and that correlating with Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" etc...]



English Standard Version
and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it.

Berean Study Bible
And I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it.

Berean Literal Bible
And I was weeping loudly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll, nor to see it.

New American Standard Bible
Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;

 

[Wansvic]

There is one gospel message-Jesus' death, burial and resurrection
The gospel or "good news" message is the fact that Jesus came to Earth proved by miracles, etc. that He was the Messiah and shed His blood providing man with a way back into right standing with God.
God was under no obligation to provide a way for man--thus it is God's grace that opened the way.

Scripture indicates that repentance and remission of sins would be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING IN JERUSALEM. (Luke 24:47)

1 Cor 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We accept the message concerning repenting, water baptism (into His death) into Jesus name, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel Jesus death, burial, and resurrection:

Col 2:12-15
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Rom 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The following scriptures indicate that the gospel is to be obeyed. And not all have OBEYED the gospel:

2 Thess 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Obedience to Jesus death is submitting to the command to repent in Acts. Obedience to His burial is by submitting to water baptism in His name. And Obedience to His resurrection is receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Wansvic]

I want to make a separate topic of this:

Is the gospel of the kingdom different from the gospel of grace Paul preached?

In my opinion there is one gospel, because gospel just means glad tidings of good things. (or good news).

So whether its called Gospel of the Kingdom, grace, God, peace, doesn't matter. All of those are in the Bible, if we were to assume all of those gospels are different ones cause one is called the gospel of Peace and one is teh gospel of God, we would end up in an ABSOLUTE MESS.

I made this thread to "feel the waters" a bit and see where people on this forum stand on this issue. I hope I wont end up in the minority here, BUT as usual if scripture is provided to prove me wrong I will be QUICK to apologize, repent and CHANGE my views on it.
I am very much concerned about Matthew being "for the jews" and everytime something is brought up we go back to "its to the jews" or "when did Jesus preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4" as if 1 corinthians 15:1-4 is all there is to the gospel.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Remember Paul also says who preaches another gospel is accursed. There is nowhere in the Bible where it says the gospel "switches" to a different one after the rapture happens or ANYTHING like that, that is pure reading into the text and assuming.

There is one gospel message-Jesus' death, burial and resurrection
The gospel or "good news" message is the fact that Jesus came to Earth proved by miracles, etc. that He was the Messiah and shed His blood providing man with a way back into right standing with God.
God was under no obligation to provide a way for man--thus it is God's grace that opened the way.

Scripture indicates that repentance and remission of sins would be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING IN JERUSALEM. (Luke 24:47)

1 Cor 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We accept the message concerning repenting, water baptism (into His death) into Jesus name, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel Jesus death, burial, and resurrection:

Col 2:12-15
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Rom 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The following scriptures indicate that the gospel is to be obeyed. And not all have OBEYED the gospel:

2 Thess 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Obedience to Jesus death is submitting to the command to repent in Acts. Obedience to His burial is by submitting to water baptism in His name. And Obedience to His resurrection is receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Absolutely]

I see the mystery as the d,b,r of Jesus Christ. It was hid and in mystery form throughout the OT, but not understood until after the resurrection.

What are we to believe for eternal salvation? It's not just "whosoever believes in Him" but believing in what He accomplished on the cross. One must trust in the sacrificial atonement Christ accomplished for sins on the cross for eternal salvation.

No,you don't have to get educated,to get saved.
I already pointed out the jailer in acts got saved like paul and myself.
Dbr knowledge can come before or after salvation.

"But,but,but,it says they instructed the jailer in the things of God"

Yes we all 3 got schooled in the dbr AFTER salvation.

The gospel message= Jesus
The Apostles message=Jesus
The pauline message=Jesus

Salvation=Jesus

Jesus is above methodology.

 

[Absolutely]

There is one gospel message-Jesus' death, burial and resurrection
The gospel or "good news" message is the fact that Jesus came to Earth proved by miracles, etc. that He was the Messiah and shed His blood providing man with a way back into right standing with God.
God was under no obligation to provide a way for man--thus it is God's grace that opened the way.

Scripture indicates that repentance and remission of sins would be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING IN JERUSALEM. (Luke 24:47)

1 Cor 15:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

We accept the message concerning repenting, water baptism (into His death) into Jesus name, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. These instructions parallel Jesus death, burial, and resurrection:

Col 2:12-15
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Rom 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The following scriptures indicate that the gospel is to be obeyed. And not all have OBEYED the gospel:

2 Thess 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Obedience to Jesus death is submitting to the command to repent in Acts. Obedience to His burial is by submitting to water baptism in His name. And Obedience to His resurrection is receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

....and as you point out dbr knowledge can come AFTER salvation.
A million people can hear those words dbr and NEVER get saved.

It is rediculous to think salvation is a prayer,and that prayer HAS to say what you think.

Thank God some understand salvation is a person
Jesus is salvation.

We ARE NOT saved by dbr.
We are saved by Jesus and HIS dbr.

But with or without dbr knowledge

 

[John146]

No,you don't have to get educated,to get saved.
I already pointed out the jailer in acts got saved like paul and myself.
Dbr knowledge can come before or after salvation.

"But,but,but,it says they instructed the jailer in the things of God"

Yes we all 3 got schooled in the dbr AFTER salvation.

The gospel message= Jesus
The Apostles message=Jesus
The pauline message=Jesus

Salvation=Jesus

Jesus is above methodology.

Wow! That's a dangerous belief you got there. Do you witness? What do you say, "Jesus", believe in Jesus?

I would say, believe Jesus for what? What did He do that I should believe on Him?

 

[John146]

....and as you point out dbr knowledge can come AFTER salvation.
A million people can hear those words dbr and NEVER get saved.

It is rediculous to think salvation is a prayer,and that prayer HAS to say what you think.

Thank God some understand salvation is a person
Jesus is salvation.

We ARE NOT saved by dbr.
We are saved by Jesus and HIS dbr.

But with or without dbr knowledge

One doesn't have to call upon the Lord to get saved? That's prayer.

 

[Absolutely]

Earlier you had put that 1Th4 pertains to "the bride". Is that right, what you believe?

I believe "the Church which is His body" is SOLELY who the "Rapture" pertains to (and is pre-trib; and relating to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"). I believe the 144,000 come to faith AFTER our Rapture (DURING the trib years).

And, for example, the 2W aren't "raptured"... it says "they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them" which I do believe gives a distinct meaning. [harpazo is more of a snatch-like thing (which no one will "see" as a VISIBLE thing, like "ascending" is/can be), as I see it--and yes, I do realize it is used elsewhere of others]

Ascend,rapture, the same thing. All visible.

Mat 25 has only half the church departing as the bride. Which really is a no brainer unless you are dreaming that the entire congregation is serious about Jesus.

The one taken,one left is also the rapture. It even says to watch and wait (practically in the same breath)

 

[Absolutely]

Wow! That's a dangerous belief you got there. Do you witness? What do you say, "Jesus", believe in Jesus?

I would say, believe Jesus for what? What did He do that I should believe on Him?

Are you deaf?
You have yet to hear what is said.

You are so programmed by a absent Jesus mold,you think paul got saved by a prayer?
Dbr knowledge?
You saying Jesus showed up and refused to move upon paul until he said dbr?

 

[Absolutely]

One doesn't have to call upon the Lord to get saved? That's prayer.

Jesus is bigger than your mold.
Show me EXACTLY,the words paul and the Jailer prayed BEFORE conversion.

I will wait

 

[Absolutely]

One doesn't have to call upon the Lord to get saved? That's prayer.

Paul didn't

Maybe he is not saved huh?