Not By Works

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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Read what you just wrote.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

YOU are not called to follow a model of good behavior.
YOU are not like other world religions aspiring to follow their master.

And yet you say you are in Jesus and He is in you.

I'd like to understand that better.

1. You don't have to behave as Jesus stated in Mathew 5:3.........and many other places.

2. You do not aspire to follow your Master --Jesus.

And yet you feel safe and secure and you believe you are in Him and He in you.
What you post is rather horrifying.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

That sounds like the wrath of God is abiding in those who do not obey...not eternal life.
John 3:36 the wrath of God abides on "unbelievers" who do not obey the son. You do misuse the bible continually and your "save myself" gospel is as phony as a three dollar bill. You need to go back to Sunday School.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Read what you just wrote.

YOU are not called to follow a model of good behavior.
YOU are not like other world religions aspiring to follow their master.

And yet you say you are in Jesus and He is in you.

I'd like to understand that better.

1. You don't have to behave as Jesus stated in Mathew 5:3.........and many other places.

2. You do not aspire to follow your Master --Jesus.

And yet you feel safe and secure and you believe you are in Him and He in you.
What you post is rather horrifying.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

That sounds like the wrath of God is abiding in those who do not obey...not eternal life.

Jesus is an internal reality, not an external model of good behaviour.

Are you so offended that your good works count for nothing towards your salvation?

Interesting.

We are in fellowship with Him, we are partakers of His divine essence, we yield to Him within us. We are His Workmanship, He is doing the molding, you on the other hand are trying to fashion yourself into being like Him by following for salvation!!!!

We live in Him and He in Us. There are no good works apart from this life of fellowship and what we do is to be His presence in this world, in real time

"Following" in your theology is for salvation..... you cannot follow Jesus for salvation.

For salvation we are called to believe the Gospel, the precursor to faith
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,482
13,421
113
58
You just cannot separate our daily walk with our savior and our salvation can you, what a pity you are.
Those who trust in works for salvation often confuse ongoing sanctification (which involves our daily walk in our Christian life and growth towards maturity in Christ) with justification (having been justified/saved through faith). When justification gets confused with ongoing sanctification the end result is "performance based works salvation."

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists:

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,482
13,421
113
58
John 3:36 the wrath of God abides on "unbelievers" who do not obey the son. You do misuse the bible continually and your "save myself" gospel is as phony as a three dollar bill. You need to go back to Sunday School.
I have often heard works-salvationists cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing in the Son, yet they are actually believing in their works and not IN THE SON.

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make "obedience" the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. *To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."

*In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
John 3:36 the wrath of God abides on "unbelievers" who do not obey the son. You do misuse the bible continually and your "save myself" gospel is as phony as a three dollar bill. You need to go back to Sunday School.
Correct Truthtalk...
As you stated above:

Those who do not obey are unbelievers.

Thank you for that.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I have often heard works-salvationists cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing in the Son, yet they are actually believing in their works and not IN THE SON.

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make "obedience" the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. *To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."

*In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
Truthtalk got it right.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Jesus is an internal reality, not an external model of good behaviour.

Are you so offended that your good works count for nothing towards your salvation?

Interesting.

We are in fellowship with Him, we are partakers of His divine essence, we yield to Him within us. We are His Workmanship, He is doing the molding, you on the other hand are trying to fashion yourself into being like Him by following for salvation!!!!

We live in Him and He in Us. There are no good works apart from this life of fellowship and what we do is to be His presence in this world, in real time

"Following" in your theology is for salvation..... you cannot follow Jesus for salvation.

For salvation we are called to believe the Gospel, the precursor to faith
1 John 2:6
26the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

You do like to make up your own rules...
but the N.T. says otherwise.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Read what you just wrote.

YOU are not called to follow a model of good behavior.
YOU are not like other world religions aspiring to follow their master.

And yet you say you are in Jesus and He is in you.

I'd like to understand that better.

1. You don't have to behave as Jesus stated in Mathew 5:3.........and many other places.

2. You do not aspire to follow your Master --Jesus.

And yet you feel safe and secure and you believe you are in Him and He in you.
What you post is rather horrifying.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

That sounds like the wrath of God is abiding in those who do not obey...not eternal life.
.........And another thing one does not become Born Again, Blood Bought, Believer in Christ Jesus by agreeing to follow Him.

Really you need to go back and read the Bible.

We are called to believe that the work on the cross is efficacious to save completely and utterly since our righteousness is as filthy rags from God's perspective.

We are, Redeemed, Justified and Positionally Sanctified (set apart) in Christ Jesus.

We are called to live out this reality daily, we are not being made good, the flesh is not being redeemed, we are instead learning to conform to the spirit life of Jesus within us and this my dear can be a process.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,327
6,696
113
.........And another thing one does not become Born Again, Blood Bought, Believer in Christ Jesus by agreeing to follow Him.

Really you need to go back and read the Bible.

We are called to believe that the work on the cross is efficacious to save completely and utterly since our righteousness is as filthy rags from God's perspective.

We are, Redeemed, Justified and Positionally Sanctified (set apart) in Christ Jesus.

We are called to live out this reality daily, we are not being made good, the flesh is not being redeemed, we are instead learning to conform to the spirit life of Jesus within us and this my dear can be a process.
or maybe in her case, read it for the first time.

a lot of plucking verses out of context and refusing to recognize the definition of words going on with the banned-but-back-one.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Read what you just wrote.

YOU are not called to follow a model of good behavior.
YOU are not like other world religions aspiring to follow their master.

And yet you say you are in Jesus and He is in you.

I'd like to understand that better.

1. You don't have to behave as Jesus stated in Mathew 5:3.........and many other places.

2. You do not aspire to follow your Master --Jesus.

And yet you feel safe and secure and you believe you are in Him and He in you.
What you post is rather horrifying.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

That sounds like the wrath of God is abiding in those who do not obey...not eternal life.
.....And another thing, if a person thinks obedience (i.e. behaviour modification, good works, law keeping) is going to save them they have yet to enter through the narrow gate
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
.....And another thing, if a person thinks obedience (i.e. behaviour modification, good works, law keeping) is going to save them they have yet to enter through the narrow gate
So truth is boring?

Well now we know
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
TruthTalk obviously does not agree with you. To "not obey the Son" by refusing to believe in the Son is descriptive of unbelievers.

Be sure to go back and read (and meditate on) post #82,085. ;)
You can spin it how you want MMD.
If we do not obey the Son...
it means we do not believe the Son.

If we believed the Son...
we would obey the Son.

Simple.
No need to write pages.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,757
4,120
113
63
You can spin it how you want MMD.
If we do not obey the Son...
it means we do not believe the Son.

If we believed the Son...
we would obey the Son.

Simple.
No need to write pages.
So if we obey God in the morning we are saved , but if we disobey in the afternoon we lose our Salvation ?
Thank God His grace and Mercy are new every morning , for He alone knew we would need it...
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You can spin it how you want MMD.
If we do not obey the Son...
it means we do not believe the Son.

If we believed the Son...
we would obey the Son.

Simple.
No need to write pages.
And which Greek word for "obey" there are many