Does God want us to choose between law and grace?

[WalkingTree]

How can people who practice Judaism come to Christ when He is an offense to them?

Now this is a good question. One has to give the offending party a chance to clear things up. This doesn't come by mocking. This comes by leading others to a relationship with God through the Spirit. It's the whole reason he was given.

Another way is to stop presenting an offensive Messiah to them. Christianity has done as much to separate itself from it's Jewish roots as Rabbinical Judaism has. Both seem to be spiting each other through the ages, trying to out do each others rejection of the other. So maintaining an unbreachable rift between the two. And this is where Messianic Judaism has made huge inroads to rebuilding this bridge.

He is an offense not because he rejects the former Israel, but because he restores her to new in a way they do not understand, yet. The Spirit is longing to teach them, and we are to bring them to the Spirit. I know, I came to Jesus as a young Jew, I know the hurdles. But I didn't come to him because Christians convinced me God rejected us and I had better become a Christian. He met me in the wilderness of my life and maintained me through that wilderness. His condemnation did not lead me to his love. His everlasting loving kindness did.

 

[WalkingTree]

You are pretty thin skinned to think of that as mocking.

haha. No, I used to be a world class mocker. There's a difference between being offended and being aware. I was not triggered, I am only greatly aware of love being expressed in the form of sarcasm. I was trying to help you understand that it is apparent, even if it's presence doesn't effect you. It can and will effect others.

My character is rough by nature, I was raised wild. So I understand the nuances of such. I was pointing out that even that type of statement is not productive to a healthy conversation. "I know you don't know but let me tell you anyway"=condescending. Personally, yea, so what. But in the vain of reaching another through the Spirit of the living God... not really productive example of Messiah.

It all depends on who your talking to, but when you really want to make a difference we need to shelve the ego. And all mocking and sarcasm is of the ego.

We could probably have a real good and productive conversation being blunt. Between me and you, that could work. But I don't think it should be the default attitude. Though I am a veteran of forum affairs so I understand that the scars bring callousness to the perceived noise of 'the law...the law....the law....'

 

[Grandpa]

By preaching this as a focus you misconstrue the actual message. You gloss over or negate how God is in the process of restoring a desolate house and land. You negate the heart of God as given through the prophets who proclaim the restoration and reconciliation of Israel as a people. You preach half the message, why? And in the name of truth even!? Why would you only focus on the discipline and not the restoration? Why do you choose in your heart to speak destruction to Israel instead of reconciliation? Or to speak reconciliation through destruction?

We all, at one point, had a desolate house and a desolate land.

Israel is not special in that regard.

I don't speak destruction to Israel. I consider that there is a Spiritual Israel that I am a part of. I've been grafted in and I am grateful.

Physical Israel I consider to be in error and I don't consider myself as belonging with them.

Physical Israel is desolate, spiritually. Spiritual Israel will never be destroyed.

Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Grandpa]

haha. No, I used to be a world class mocker. There's a difference between being offended and being aware. I was not triggered, I am only greatly aware of love being expressed in the form of sarcasm. I was trying to help you understand that it is apparent, even if it's presence doesn't effect you. It can and will effect others.

My character is rough by nature, I was raised wild. So I understand the nuances of such. I was pointing out that even that type of statement is not productive to a healthy conversation. "I know you don't know but let me tell you anyway"=condescending. Personally, yea, so what. But in the vain of reaching another through the Spirit of the living God... not really productive example of Messiah.

It all depends on who your talking to, but when you really want to make a difference we need to shelve the ego. And all mocking and sarcasm is of the ego.

We could probably have a real good and productive conversation being blunt. Between me and you, that could work. But I don't think it should be the default attitude. Though I am a veteran of forum affairs so I understand that the scars bring callousness to the perceived noise of 'the law...the law....the law....'

Wow.

Each time I think I get a read on you I miss a little bit.

I like to spell things out simply and quickly to see where we stand with each other.


Just to be clear, you inferred that I didn't know what I was talking about. Perhaps I inferred it back to you... lol

 

[WalkingTree]

Physical Israel is desolate, spiritually. Spiritual Israel will never be destroyed.

We can agree with everything you mentioned. Even this above. Yet, Physical Israel will not remain spiritually desolate, people and/or land. According the prophet Ezekiel, (reinforced through Isaiah and Jeremiah) physical Israel will be restored, and it has everything to do with Jesus.

Ezekiel 37
18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on

21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.


24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

Now here is where I differ with Messianic ideology, I do not believe 'follow my laws and keep my decrees' equals the laws given Moses. I believe it means the words that come out of Jesus very mouth. Though I do not believe his laws negate the old in that the morality of them stands. But the ministration of them under the old covenant is no longer. Everything has been transformed as foretold into a newness of life. Nothing good has been forsaken or done away with. Only how it is ministered to us. The ministration has been transformed, not the heart of God. Christians aren't supposed to have a whole new cup filled with something completely different than before. They are supposed to have a completed existence of what was foretold. The indwelling of the Spirit within. Something never accomplished through the law given Moses, only patterned through it. Yet, existing individually within Israel it is now offered to the whole world, so as to bring the Jewish people into this reality.

 

[WalkingTree]

Just to be clear, you inferred that I didn't know what I was talking about. Perhaps I inferred it back to you... lol

It's all good. I try not to get hung up on differences and offenses. We need to move past those things to effectively communicate. Otherwise our points will be lost in a fury of words.

 

[Grandpa]

It's all good. I try not to get hung up on differences and offenses. We need to move past those things to effectively communicate. Otherwise our points will be lost in a fury of words.

Ha ha. I wasn't offended. I figured you were just another blind guide leading the blind behind you.

So I missed a little on that first impression. It happens, right?

You probably thought I was some sort of anti-semite...

 

[WalkingTree]

You probably thought I was some sort of anti-semite...

No, not at all. An anti-Semite is vicious without regret. And though many Christians unwittingly entertain anti-Semitic ideologies because of centuries of supersessionism, I don't see them as anti-Semitic. A real anti-Semite has hate in his heart that defies logic. And I just don't sense that from your words Grandpa.

 

[TMS]

Jew or Gentile
We all should follow Jesus and Jesus kept the law. Do you follow our great example?
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Paul said this many years after Christ and he was speaking to gentiles.

 

[PS]

I'm not sure if Jesus fully kept the law, we know he worked on the Sabbath and we know all people can come to Him without keeping the law. The law, it seems to me is an insurmountable barrier that prevents people from entering into the presence of God. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

The immortal words of Jesus when He cried "IT IS FINISHED" from the cross tell us the work His Father had given him to do was finished and all those who believed in Him and accepted him as their Lord and Saviour can enter into the Holy of Holies and dwell with Him and He with them for evermore. The Old Testament patriarchs came to God not through the law, but by faith.

There is an excellent article on Christ's finished work here: https://carm.org/devotion-it-is-finished

 

[WalkingTree]

Jew or Gentile
We all should follow Jesus and Jesus kept the law. Do you follow our great example?
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Paul said this many years after Christ and he was speaking to gentiles.

We establish the testimony of the law when by faith we believe in the righteousness that is offered apart from the law as testified by the law and the prophets. Romans 3:21-22

We don't boast because of the law that requires works, we boast because of the law that requires faith. Romans 3:27

Paul stated his apostleship was based upon calling all Gentiles to an obedience that comes from faith. Romans 1:5 16:26

Please tell me you did not just pick the last verse in this chapter to prove the opposite?

The law is established through our faith in Messiah. Our faith in Messiah does not establish our obedience to the law that requires works. The law testified of a righteousness given apart from the law that comes from faith. Hence, we establish the (testimony of the) Law when we have faith. Our obedience requires faith, not works of the law. We boast in our faith, not in works of the law. Our faith saves us, the law only reminds us of sins, which should all be counted as forgiven anyway, as we move on away from the life of sin and towards a life of obedient faith in Messiah through the Spirit. Our relationship is with a living God, not a written letter. It's the Spirit that brings life, it's the law that deals with sins and death. We are all called to a living relationship with a living God through the living holy spirit. Which quickens far better than any parchment or stone letter.

Paul said all this and more to both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[WalkingTree]

The law, it seems to me is an insurmountable barrier that prevents people from entering into the presence of God.

As a Jewish believer it's so strange to see you describe it this way. Considering the law was given as a way to enter into the presence of the Holy One of Israel. The law commanded the ark which contained the very presence of God's glory. God gave the law to Israel so they could have a means to enter into his presence. Of course it only really manifested for them when faith was applied to the command. But it was their means of connection none the less. A pattern and image of our relationship with Jesus now. The ark our heart in which he writes and stores his commands.

The law only becomes a barrier when one attempts to use it as a mechanism to attain the presence or righteousness of God. Used without faith it's only going to condemn you. Applying it without the authority of the Spirit is another show stopper. And placing it where it has been removed from, and/or removing it from where it has been placed will definitely get you on the loosing side.

To Paul it was to be seen as holy and usable for many good things. To forsake it would be to shoot yourself in the foot. But to wear it would be to wear a millstone as the waters rise. I like how Paul said we are free, but don't use our freedom to sin. And how he constantly reminded that our union with God through the Spirit is the key to operating our obedience of faith. Because only through faith will the Spirit come and lead you to obedience. That is why the law was to be operated in faith, and why our faith now upholds the law.

 

[Grandpa]

We establish the testimony of the law when by faith we believe in the righteousness that is offered apart from the law as testified by the law and the prophets. Romans 3:21-22

We don't boast because of the law that requires works, we boast because of the law that requires faith. Romans 3:27

Paul stated his apostleship was based upon calling all Gentiles to an obedience that comes from faith. Romans 1:5 16:26

Please tell me you did not just pick the last verse in this chapter to prove the opposite?

The law is established through our faith in Messiah. Our faith in Messiah does not establish our obedience to the law that requires works. The law testified of a righteousness given apart from the law that comes from faith. Hence, we establish the (testimony of the) Law when we have faith. Our obedience requires faith, not works of the law. We boast in our faith, not in works of the law. Our faith saves us, the law only reminds us of sins, which should all be counted as forgiven anyway, as we move on away from the life of sin and towards a life of obedient faith in Messiah through the Spirit. Our relationship is with a living God, not a written letter. It's the Spirit that brings life, it's the law that deals with sins and death. We are all called to a living relationship with a living God through the living holy spirit. Which quickens far better than any parchment or stone letter.

Paul said all this and more to both Jews and Gentiles.

It always bothers me how certain people use Romans 3:31 to try to show Paul as preaching carnal legalism.

Paul is saying the opposite, but he is saying it to Christians. The Christian who exhibits the fruit(s) of the Spirit is actually showing the intent of the law. Establishing the law.

The confusing thing to try and explain, especially to legalists, is that none of this is through carnal "obedience" to the 10 commandments. Its through abiding in Christ and producing Spiritual Fruit. By Grace through Faith.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul shows us the problem with us and why the law presents such a difficulty to us in this small statement.

Without the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit we have no hope of coming anywhere close to Real Obedience to what the Law really commands.

 

[PS]

As a Jewish believer it's so strange to see you describe it this way. Considering the law was given as a way to enter into the presence of the Holy One of Israel. The law commanded the ark which contained the very presence of God's glory. God gave the law to Israel so they could have a means to enter into his presence. Of course it only really manifested for them when faith was applied to the command. But it was their means of connection none the less. A pattern and image of our relationship with Jesus now. The ark our heart in which he writes and stores his commands.

The law only becomes a barrier when one attempts to use it as a mechanism to attain the presence or righteousness of God. Used without faith it's only going to condemn you. Applying it without the authority of the Spirit is another show stopper. And placing it where it has been removed from, and/or removing it from where it has been placed will definitely get you on the loosing side.

To Paul it was to be seen as holy and usable for many good things. To forsake it would be to shoot yourself in the foot. But to wear it would be to wear a millstone as the waters rise. I like how Paul said we are free, but don't use our freedom to sin. And how he constantly reminded that our union with God through the Spirit is the key to operating our obedience of faith. Because only through faith will the Spirit come and lead you to obedience. That is why the law was to be operated in faith, and why our faith now upholds the law.

We are going to get into a hornets nest here if we are not careful. Perhaps you will understand why the law is a barrier to salvation when we compare the 6th commandment that God gave to Moses with the Mitzvot. Remember it was the faith of Moses that saved him, not his keeping of the law.

487 Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer — Deut. 25:12

488 Not to pity the pursuer — Num. 35:12

545 The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning — Deut. 22:24

546 The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning — Lev. 20:14

547 The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword — Ex. 21:20

548 The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation — Lev. 20:10

549 The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry — Deut. 21:22

550 Bury the executed on the day they are killed — Deut. 21:23

555 The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence — Ex. 23:7

51 Not to bow down before a smooth stone — Lev. 26:1 (Idolotry)

189 Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned — Ex. 21:2 (Cruelty)

008 Not to destroy objects associated with His Name — Deut. 12:4 (Idolotry)

596 Destroy the seven Canaanite nations — Deut. 20:17

597 Not to let any of them remain alive — Deut. 20:16

598 Wipe out the descendants of Amalek — Deut. 25:19

599 Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people — Deut. 25:17

600 Not to forget Amalek's atrocities and ambush on our journey from Egypt in the desert — Deut. 25:19

603 Not to offer peace to Ammon and Moab while besieging them — Deut. 23:7

 

[TMS]

Can i keep the law because i love God? Can i obey Gods laws because i love Him? Or is it legalism to do this?
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The law does not seperate us from God. Sin does, and we continue to sin when we are in the flesh, but in the Spirit we do not sin.
The law can't condemn us when we are not sinning (walking in the Spirit).
Jesus has freed us from the condemnation of the law, but I'm not going to continue to sin that grace might abound. By faith I'll trust in His grace to forgive and to help me overcome.

 

[TMS]

If all speed limits were removed, could you be fined for speeding?
If all laws are removed can we be sinners today?
Laws are for our safty, they protect us from hurting ourslves and others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If all speed limits were removed, could you be fined for speeding?
If all laws are removed can we be sinners today?
Laws are for our safty, they protect us from hurting ourslves and others.

If there is no speed limit sign then they can not legally charge you.

All christians know they were sinners, its what brought them to christ. No, they do not need the law telling them they still,sin, if they do, then something is wrong,

The law is their for the sinner, not the righteous.

 

[calibob]

If there is no speed limit sign then they can not legally charge you.

All christians know they were sinners, its what brought them to christ. No, they do not need the law telling them they still,sin, if they do, then something is wrong,

The law is their for the sinner, not the righteous.

The first sentence is WRONG. You can get a ticket for unsafe speed due to road conditions or wreck less driving even going slower than the posted speed limit. We should have known better.

I'll cosign the rest of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The first sentence is WRONG. You can get a ticket for unsafe speed due to road conditions or wreck less driving even going slower than the posted speed limit. We should have known better.

I'll cosign the rest of it.

Actually you just proved my point, if we were not so selfish and thouht of others like we are supposed to and their safety, we would never drive wrecklessly. And we would never need a speed limit signs

If we are selfish and do not care, no speeding sign will stop us.

 

[calibob]

The first sentence is WRONG. You can get a ticket for unsafe speed due to road conditions or wreck less driving even going slower than the posted speed limit. We should have known better.

Correction. I didn't believe in hell at all before I was saved. I was lonely and I hoped there was a God so I asked him to come into my life if he was real. He is and he did. That's when everything changed for me.