Twelve Tribes

[Hevosmies]

It's going to be a source for truth for the Jew in the tribulation. Israel will turn to the Lord and be saved.

James 5
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Description pointing towards Christ's second coming as King.

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. True statement for the Jew in the tribulation.

9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. True statement as the Lord is ready to return. Paul says Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. The Jews are to look to their own prophets for examples.

11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. No better saint to look to for the tribulation saint than Job. Job had all taken from him, but because he endured to the end(Matthew 24:13), the Lord blessed him with much. Job's 42 chapters has long been a picture of the 42 months of tribulation to come.

Except that all of this is a day late. All the people to whom James wrote are DEAD. Why would James send a letter to people in the 1st century when NOTHING of it was applicable to them? But only to people 20 centuries ahead?

A jew who is caught up in a tribulation today has no idea that the NT epistles of Paul arent for him, and that he should go and read the book of James instead.

This is just more dispensational stuff. It seems to be the "status quo" of churches in America.

I need to do some research on WHY this is done, there MUST BE some important vital doctrine hanging on this, otherwise the dispies wouldnt be driving this point so hard.
If anyone knows which doctrine(s) are hanging on this, let me know.

 

[John146]

Except that all of this is a day late. All the people to whom James wrote are DEAD. Why would James send a letter to people in the 1st century when NOTHING of it was applicable to them? But only to people 20 centuries ahead?

A jew who is caught up in a tribulation today has no idea that the NT epistles of Paul arent for him, and that he should go and read the book of James instead.

This is just more dispensational stuff. It seems to be the "status quo" of churches in America.

I need to do some research on WHY this is done, there MUST BE some important vital doctrine hanging on this, otherwise the dispies wouldnt be driving this point so hard.
If anyone knows which doctrine(s) are hanging on this, let me know.

Why would John write a letter that has future ramifications? Was John's letter applicable 2,000 years ago? James is written to those Jews in the tribulation. The tribulation could have begun if the nation of Israel would have received their King. The earthly kingdom reign of Christ was postponed, thus the book of James has future application. Notice it's placed after Paul's epistles to the church. Why? Because it is to the Jew after the church is caught up.

 

[garee]

Whenever the phrase “twelve tribes” is used in scripture, it is always a reference to the whole nation - Genesis 49:28, Exodus 24:4, 28:21, Ezekiel 47:13.

The NT is no exception- Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, Acts 22:7, Revelation 21:12.


Whenever Christians out of the twelve tribes are referred to, they are clearly designated apart from the 12 tribes. Saved Jews are referred to as the remnant (Romans 9:27, 11:5); the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16); believing Jews (Romans 1:16); etc...

I would say 12 represents the whole new born again nation made up of many nations.

12 is a metaphor used in parables is used to represent the whole of whatever is in view . The 12 tribes represent all of the gates by which born again mankind enters the heavenly city of Christ prepared s his chaste virgin bride the church . 12 tribes represent the elect in the Old testament . 12 apostles those sent out of the city represent all the saints that have been elecedt to salvation on this side of the cross. Together making up the whole body of Christ his eternal chaste virgin bride, the church.

 

[obedienttogod]

No Christians in Matthew. The body of Christ did not begin until the death, burial and resurrection. The term "elect" never has salvation as the context, but service. Jesus Christ was God's elect. Was Jesus in need of salvation?

I disagree. Yeshua said the ELECT would go through the Tribulation, suffer during it, and when He returns the angels will gather the Elect. He was speaking in future terms, but He clearly used the word the Elect to represent the living portion of the Bride for that coming day!!

And that term ELECT, had been around for some time and the Jews listening knew what Yeshua was speaking about.

Plus, the moment He fulfilled the Death-Burial-Resurrection, all believers became the "Elect." And we see many Elect from Mary M, the Disciples, and others in Chapter 27-28 of Matthew that would be part of the Elect.

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

This is referred to the Coming Messiah, and the Coming Messiah in Matthew uses it to describe the believers.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Lanolin]

Whenever the phrase “twelve tribes” is used in scripture, it is always a reference to the whole nation - Genesis 49:28, Exodus 24:4, 28:21, Ezekiel 47:13.

The NT is no exception- Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, Acts 22:7, Revelation 21:12.

Whenever Christians out of the twelve tribes are referred to, they are clearly designated apart from the 12 tribes. Saved Jews are referred to as the remnant (Romans 9:27, 11:5); the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16); believing Jews (Romans 1:16); etc...

No those outside the twelves tribes of Israel are just called Gentiles. The Jews were part of the the twelve tribes (Judah) except many of them would not accept Jesus as their Messiah. They were the one tribe that resisted although they gave that name Judah to encompass benjamin If iM not wrong. The gosepl went out from Jerasulem, Judaea, Samaria to the ends of the earth. Believing jews...Paul was one although he said he was from the tribe of Benjamin. JEsus actually was from Judah, born in Bethlehem Judea because of his earthly dad Joseph but not many people knew that. Because he had a Galileean accent and his mother Mary was from the tribe of Levi. Her cousin served in the temple, they had no land whilst all the other tribes had an inheritance of land.

In book of revelation 12,000 from each tribe is saved. They are not all jews, judah was only one tribe. Many people confuse Jesus as the lion of the tribe of Judah actually it is referring to the kings that killed Jesus as Jesus is the Lamb of God. All the kings before Jesus were 'lions' see the prophecy/blessing about Judah..but Jesus came as a lamb. The Lamb is resurrected so even the lion couldnt kill Jesus.

 

[John146]

I would say 12 represents the whole new born again nation made up of many nations.

12 is a metaphor used in parables is used to represent the whole of whatever is in view . The 12 tribes represent all of the gates by which born again mankind enters the heavenly city of Christ prepared s his chaste virgin bride the church . 12 tribes represent the elect in the Old testament . 12 apostles those sent out of the city represent all the saints that have been elecedt to salvation on this side of the cross. Together making up the whole body of Christ his eternal chaste virgin bride, the church.

The term twelve tribes always means the entire nation of Israel as a whole and never a called out group from that nation, aka Jewish Christians. You contradict every usage in Scripture to use the number 12 as a metaphor.

 

[Hevosmies]

Why would John write a letter that has future ramifications? Was John's letter applicable 2,000 years ago? James is written to those Jews in the tribulation. The tribulation could have begun if the nation of Israel would have received their King. The earthly kingdom reign of Christ was postponed, thus the book of James has future application. Notice it's placed after Paul's epistles to the church. Why? Because it is to the Jew after the church is caught up.

Yes, John's letter was applicable to 1st century, thats why he sent it to those churches. as commanded by the Lord

I dont believe the order of books in our bibles is inspired.......

Nobody in church history believed as the hyper-dispensationalists believe today, so its impossible they would of understood as a future application to jews in the tribulation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Many people confuse Jesus as the lion of the tribe of Judah actually it is referring to the kings that killed Jesus as Jesus is the Lamb of God.

But Jesus is plainly called "the lion of the tribe of Judah", so how do you arrive at "it is referring to the kings that killed Jesus"? Neither Herod not Tiberias Caesar were from the tribe of Judah.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda[h], the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. (Rev 5:5).

Christ is both the descendant of David and "the root of David", and David was of the tribe of Judah, as was Christ. And He was the only one qualified to open the scroll with the seven seals.

 

[John146]

Yes, John's letter was applicable to 1st century, thats why he sent it to those churches. as commanded by the Lord

I dont believe the order of books in our bibles is inspired.......

Nobody in church history believed as the hyper-dispensationalists believe today, so its impossible they would of understood as a future application to jews in the tribulation.

Do you think those in the 1st century was concerned about taking the mark of the beast? Was that applicable to them? Of course not, one reads the book of Revelation with the mindset of the future yet to come.

The order of the books can be of great help in discerning time frame in human history.

 

[John146]

Yes, John's letter was applicable to 1st century, thats why he sent it to those churches. as commanded by the Lord

I dont believe the order of books in our bibles is inspired.......

Nobody in church history believed as the hyper-dispensationalists believe today, so its impossible they would of understood as a future application to jews in the tribulation.

Why does James tell his audience that the coming of the Lord is near? Why does he tell his audience that the Judge is standing ready to return? Why the early and latter rain? Why bring up Job? Why condemn the rich?

 

[Hevosmies]

Do you think those in the 1st century was concerned about taking the mark of the beast? Was that applicable to them? Of course not, one reads the book of Revelation with the mindset of the future yet to come.

The order of the books can be of great help in discerning time frame in human history.

Yes they were, very concerned about it. Every generation of Christians have always been waiting and guessing what the mark is, making sure not to take it. Everyone does indeed read the book of Revelation as future to them.

Why does James tell his audience that the coming of the Lord is near? Why does he tell his audience that the Judge is standing ready to return? Why the early and latter rain? Why bring up Job? Why condemn the rich?

Because everyone has always believed the coming of the Lord is near, we dont know when it is, except that its always "near" "soon" "swiftly". Because the judge is standing ready at the door, unless James was lying to the people who he sent the letter to in the 1st century? It is at the door for everyone of us, i can draw my last breath today. Why not bring up Job? Job is a great example of humility and patience. Condemning the rich was something commonly done by Jesus for their greed and hypocrisy and prioritizign wealth over God.

 

[dcontroversal]

How could someone be born again, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, made a new creature in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, before the cross? And besides that, no one understood the gospel message of the cross...that is THE way unto salvation.

I agree, the word elect is descriptive of those in Christ because Christ is God's elect. Once in Christ, one is part of the elect, chosen for service unto God. No where in the Scriptures are there any elect to be in Christ. One has to add to Scripture to make it say that. It's just not there. Israel was God's elect. There are elect angels. Jesus is God's elect. Elect always points to service not salvation.

You have a lot to learn man if you believe the above..............start with the Psalms and pay attention to the words of David......get back with me in a few years!

 

[John146]

Yes they were, very concerned about it. Every generation of Christians have always been waiting and guessing what the mark is, making sure not to take it. Everyone does indeed read the book of Revelation as future to them.

Because everyone has always believed the coming of the Lord is near, we dont know when it is, except that its always "near" "soon" "swiftly". Because the judge is standing ready at the door, unless James was lying to the people who he sent the letter to in the 1st century? It is at the door for everyone of us, i can draw my last breath today. Why not bring up Job? Job is a great example of humility and patience. Condemning the rich was something commonly done by Jesus for their greed and hypocrisy and prioritizign wealth over God.

It’s not a belief that the coming of the Lord is near, but a truth as given by the Holy Spirit. This isn’t James guessing or hoping.

Paul says Jesus is not standing but seated at the right hand of the Father. Which is it?

Job has long been a picture of a tribulation saint, 42 chapters=42 months.

Paul doesn’t condemn the rich, but exhorts him to do good with his riches. In the tribulation, if one is rich, he has sold out to the Antichrist.

 

[John146]

You have a lot to learn man if you believe the above..............start with the Psalms and pay attention to the words of David......get back with me in a few years!

Thanks! What do you disagree with? Are you a disciple of the rcc calvin?

 

[Lanolin]

But Jesus is plainly called "the lion of the tribe of Judah", so how do you arrive at "it is referring to the kings that killed Jesus"? Neither Herod not Tiberias Caesar were from the tribe of Judah.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda[h], the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. (Rev 5:5).

Christ is both the descendant of David and "the root of David", and David was of the tribe of Judah, as was Christ. And He was the only one qualified to open the scroll with the seven seals.

You need to read further down dont just stop at rev 5:5. It was the lamb that opens the scroll only the Lamb of God is worthy.

Read the entire chapter dont just cherry pick verses. Even the next chapter says it is the Lamb who opens the seals.

I have said this so many times to people and yet they refuse to read the entire book of Revelation, only pick one verse, and make a doctrine out of it. Well one is cursed if one takes away or adds to the Book of Revelation but is blessed if one reads it.

Dont wrest scripture to your own destruction. Just warning you.

 

[Hevosmies]

It’s not a belief that the coming of the Lord is near, but a truth as given by the Holy Spirit. This isn’t James guessing or hoping.

Paul says Jesus is not standing but seated at the right hand of the Father. Which is it?

Job has long been a picture of a tribulation saint, 42 chapters=42 months.

Paul doesn’t condemn the rich, but exhorts him to do good with his riches. In the tribulation, if one is rich, he has sold out to the Antichrist.

Okay, lets say all of this is true, and God inspired the order of the NT books and all that:
lets ASSUME thats the case.

HOW on earth are the jews in the tribulation going to know which books to read and which not? Please dont say the Holy Spirit. Last time I checked in the pre-trib system the Holy Spirit is taken out at the rapture, kind of like a pentecost in reverse. SO that one doesnt work.

Also sad to say: We got the Holy Spirit now, and still dont agree on anything at all

 

[John146]

Okay, lets say all of this is true, and God inspired the order of the NT books and all that:
lets ASSUME thats the case.

HOW on earth are the jews in the tribulation going to know which books to read and which not? Please dont say the Holy Spirit. Last time I checked in the pre-trib system the Holy Spirit is taken out at the rapture, kind of like a pentecost in reverse. SO that one doesnt work.

Also sad to say: We got the Holy Spirit now, and still dont agree on anything at all

Two witnesses and 144,000 male Jews...they will point them to the Scriptures especially Hebrews and James.

 

[John146]

Is James writing to Christian Jews in the diaspora? Explain.

2 Ye lust and have not: ye kill and desire to have but can not obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not because ye ask not.
3 ye ask and receive not because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lusts.
4 ye adulterers and aldultresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity against God?

Chapter 4 continued...

 

[John146]

Is James writing to Christian Jews in the diaspora? Explain.

2 Ye lust and have not: ye kill and desire to have but can not obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not because ye ask not.
3 ye ask and receive not because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lusts.
4 ye adulterers and aldultresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity against God?

Chapter 4 continued...

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

[Hevosmies]

Is James writing to Christian Jews in the diaspora? Explain.

2 Ye lust and have not: ye kill and desire to have but can not obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not because ye ask not.
3 ye ask and receive not because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it on your lusts.
4 ye adulterers and aldultresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is enmity against God?

Chapter 4 continued...

Good point! Thanks, something to consider!