The Lake of Fire

[Journeyman]

The Day of the Lord spans from the beginning of the tribulation through the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
The Day of the Lord begins with wrath and judgment. It's description is all over the Bible. We are currently in the Church age/the age of grace/the times of the Gentiles. The Chuch is not destined for wrath (Romans 5).
As soon as the rapture takes place, The Day of The Lord begins with the Tribulation

I think the revelation of Jesus Christ goes back to the beginning of creation. I believe all the "end time" events can be seen in ways throughout history. For instance,

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness Rom.1:18

And God has always offered grace to people and protected his people through tribulation. I have a thought that "Jesus being revealed" doesn't only occur at the end of this world, but also includes the end of this world in the lives of believers throughout the history of mankind.

 

[Deade]

And God has always offered grace to people and protected his people through tribulation. I have a thought that "Jesus being revealed" doesn't only occur at the end of this world, but also includes the end of this world in the lives of believers throughout the history of mankind.

God is not a man that can change. Mal. 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

How do we suppose Enoch, Noah and Moses found grace with God? God has always been approachable to those that really sought Him.

Jer. 29:11-14 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

 

[Journeyman]

Yes sir, Satan will be brought down and the world will be astonished at how little power he had to accomplish that.

Isa. 14:12-17 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"

Satan and his demons are just tools for us to overcome. That said, he runs this world system by leading men unbeknownst to them to do his will. He accused mankind as not ever able to obey God. Christ showed him otherwise, thus, defeating him.

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

Amen!

I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee Eze.28:18

I do believe this is the end of the devil.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Then we a problem, because as I read the Bible and pray, asking God for help in understanding, it's becoming clearer to me that our merciful Savior doesn't torture anyone. People who hurt others, who portray themselves as mighty, are tormented by being exposed for the cowards they truly are. And as Jesus said,

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothingcovered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. Mt.10:26

So when we read,

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev.20:10

We can understand it to mean in the light of Christ, Satan is tormented by having his weaknesses exposed by the evil he committed day and night throughout the ages of mankind.

Hello Journeyman,

Respectfully, I would say that you need to do a lot more study and that because torture is exactly what the word teaches. Here is one scripture that uses the word, torture:

"Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

Below is the Greek word basanizo translated as "tormented."

Strong's Concordance
basanizó: to torture
Original Word: βασανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: basanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo)
Definition: to torture
Usage: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.

HELPS Word-studies
928 basanízō (from 931 /básanos, "a tormenting trial") – properly, to examine (literally by using torture).

So, as you can see from the scripture and the definition about, your claim is already disproved.

What you need to understand is that, God's love, grace and His mercy are applied only while an individual is alive. To be clear, once a person dies in the sins, there will be no grace or mercy.

There are two groups of people: 1) Those who believe and therefore Christ being held accountable for their sins and 2) those without faith who will be held accountable for their own sins. All sin must and will be accounted for without any grace or mercy mixed in. Therefore, anyone who has not trusted in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them, they will be held account able for their own sins. As Jesus said, "every idle word that men shall speak, they will give an account thereof.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev.20:10

The above has to do with Satan being thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, which is where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and which takes place at the beginning of the thousand years.

We can understand it to mean in the light of Christ, Satan is tormented by having his weaknesses exposed by the evil he committed day and night throughout the ages of mankind.

The above does not mean what you stated, but means exactly what it says. When Jesus Returns to the earth to end the age, Satan and His angels will be thrown into the Abyss, which is located underneath the earth. They will be imprisoned there during the thousand year reign of Christ so that they cannot deceive human beings during the millennial kingdom (Rev.20:1-7). At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released from the Abyss and will go throughout the earth to deceive the inhabitants of the earth. They will surround the camp of God's people, the city that He loves (Jerusalem) and God will destroy them by raining fire down upon them. Then Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire where he, the beast, the false prophet and all human beings whose names are not found written in the book of life and they will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire, which is the second death (Rev.20:11-15).

Regarding the wicked, the scripture further states the following:

"the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

The scripture mean exactly what they say at face value.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think the revelation of Jesus Christ goes back to the beginning of creation. I believe all the "end time" events can be seen in ways throughout history. For instance,

The word "apokalupsis" translated "Revelation" means to reveal something that was previously hidden. The Revelation is not the revealing of Christ, but the revealing of the events that will take place in the very last days. Here is the scripture:

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass."

"What must soon come to pass," would be referring to future events from the time that Revelation was written and therefore cannot be speaking about events that have taken place throughout history. But being shown these things help you to learn more about end-time events, that is, if you receive them as a learning experience.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness Rom.1:18

Context is always paramount to understanding scripture. If you will go back and read Romans again, you will see that the wrath "orge" is defined as a slow festering wrath, which is being poured out upon those who suppress the truth, i.e. keep it from being known, by their wickedness. It is being directed at those who knew God, but neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, those who instead of worshiping God, worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. As a result, God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

And God has always offered grace to people and protected his people through tribulation. I have a thought that "Jesus being revealed" doesn't only occur at the end of this world, but also includes the end of this world in the lives of believers throughout the history of mankind.

Again, though Jesus will be revealed after His wrath has been poured out, the revelation is not the revealing of Christ, but the events that are about to take place.

In addition, Jesus said that all believers would have trials and tribulation, which come at the hands of the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the spiritual realm. However, what is going to ensue once the church is removed from the earth, will be God's direct, unprecedented wrath also known as "the day of the Lord" And which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The church cannot be on the earth to be exposed to God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Regarding this, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (Rom.5:9, 1 Thess.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10).

 

[Lanolin]

Well its not Jesus personally doing the tormenting its the fire. The wicked are just in His and the holy angels presence. The wicked refused to repent, and so will be tormented. Gods wrath is such, that his judgement and punishment is just. God avenges those who made the saints suffer.

Why should unrepentant murderers, molesters, thieves, extortionists, drugdealers, pimps etc get off easy? They caused so much damage to the saints and broken lives. They polluted the earth. Theres no way they can enter heaven.

And Jesus had already warned them time and time again to repent and they did not listen.
I cant quite picture this though and one thing that puzzles me...can anyone explain Revelation 9:5-6

It seems this particular torment only lasts five months. Im not sure if they repent at the end of 5 months...but it doesnt last forever. Maybe the ones that are tormented for eternity are the absolutely hardened ones that despite being tormented, refuse to ever repent.

 

[Diakonos]

I think the revelation of Jesus Christ goes back to the beginning of creation. I believe all the "end time" events can be seen in ways throughout history. For instance,

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness Rom.1:18

And God has always offered grace to people and protected his people through tribulation. I have a thought that "Jesus being revealed" doesn't only occur at the end of this world, but also includes the end of this world in the lives of believers throughout the history of mankind.

For the sake of gaining some common ground, What do you know about the Rapture of the Church?

 

[Journeyman]

God is not a man that can change. Mal. 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

How do we suppose Enoch, Noah and Moses found grace with God? God has always been approachable to those that really sought Him.

Jer. 29:11-14 "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

That's right Deade, God has never changed and Jesus has shown us this. He endured all the injustice mankind could do to him, all the "power" of Satan and what was the outcome? Jesus is immortal, always has been always will be.

 

[Journeyman]

Hello Journeyman,
Respectfully, I would say that you need to do a lot more study

Hello Ahwatukee.
Respectfully, I would say you have a lot of company.

and that because torture is exactly what the word teaches. Here is one scripture that uses the word, torture:

"Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

Below is the Greek word basanizo translated as "tormented."

Strong's Concordance
basanizó: to torture
Original Word: βασανίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: basanizó
Phonetic Spelling: (bas-an-id'-zo)
Definition: to torture
Usage: I examine, as by torture; I torment; I buffet, as of waves.

HELPS Word-studies
928 basanízō (from 931 /básanos, "a tormenting trial") – properly, to examine (literally by using torture).

So, as you can see from the scripture and the definition about, your claim is already disproved. What you need to understand is that, God's love, grace and His mercy are applied only while an individual is alive. To be clear, once a person dies in the sins, there will be no grace or mercy.

My claim that Satan, demons and unbelievers will be tormented by having their deeds exposed in the light of Christ has not been disproved. Hey brother, have you ever had a dream that were outside, but you were naked and you were trying to hide from people? I had a dream like that once. I was ducking behind cars, trees....I was in a panick. Sure was glad when I woke up! But you see my brother, at Christ's judgment seat, there won't be anything to hide behind. Every sinful thing Satan and company have done "forever and ever" (that is, from age to age), will be seen. Please read 1Jn.4:18

There are two groups of people: 1) Those who believe and therefore Christ being held accountable for their sins

The only way Jesus was "held accountable" for our sins is found in Eze.3:18-21. Jesus did not suffer "the wrath of God in place of us." He suffered "at the hand of men for us." As Peter says,

suffering wrongfully....when ye do well, and suffer for it....because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example 1Pet.2:19-21

And as Paul, who followed Jesus's example said,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death Phi.3:10

So, if Jesus suffered "in place of us", there would be no way to follow his example, to suffer as he did.

and 2) those without faith who will be held accountable for their own sins. All sin must and will be accounted for without any grace or mercy mixed in. Therefore, anyone who has not trusted in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them, they will be held account able for their own sins. As Jesus said, "every idle word that men shall speak, they will give an account thereof.

Those who "trust Christ", know that God forgives the repentant.

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3

The above has to do with Satan being thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, which is where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and which takes place at the beginning of the thousand years.

The above does not mean what you stated, but means exactly what it says. When Jesus Returns to the earth to end the age, Satan and His angels will be thrown into the Abyss, which is located underneath the earth. They will be imprisoned there during the thousand year reign of Christ so that they cannot deceive human beings during the millennial kingdom (Rev.20:1-7). At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released from the Abyss and will go throughout the earth to deceive the inhabitants of the earth. They will surround the camp of God's people, the city that He loves (Jerusalem) and God will destroy them by raining fire down upon them. Then Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire where he, the beast, the false prophet and all human beings whose names are not found written in the book of life and they will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire, which is the second death (Rev.20:11-15).

Regarding the wicked, the scripture further states the following:

"the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

The scripture mean exactly what they say at face value.

Well brother, I do ages there only two types of people and for that reason, Jesus won't be returning so that people may have faith in God. He did everything necessary for people to have faith in God when he came here the first time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well its not Jesus personally doing the tormenting its the fire. The wicked are just in His and the holy angels presence. The wicked refused to repent, and so will be tormented. Gods wrath is such, that his judgement and punishment is just. God avenges those who made the saints suffer.

Why should unrepentant murderers, molesters, thieves, extortionists, drugdealers, pimps etc get off easy? They caused so much damage to the saints and broken lives. They polluted the earth. Theres no way they can enter heaven.

And Jesus had already warned them time and time again to repent and they did not listen.
I cant quite picture this though and one thing that puzzles me...can anyone explain Revelation 9:5-6

It seems this particular torment only lasts five months. Im not sure if they repent at the end of 5 months...but it doesnt last forever. Maybe the ones that are tormented for eternity are the absolutely hardened ones that despite being tormented, refuse to ever repent.

Good day Lanolin,

The 5 months of torment that you referred to in Rev.9-5-6, is the 5th trumpet judgment and is also the first woe, of which there are three. The reason that I believe that trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are referred to as woes, is because they are all Satanic in nature:

5th Trumpet/1st Woe

Demonic beings resembling locusts, like horses prepared for battle, having hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth, human faces and tails and stingers like that of a scorpion. These are commanded to not harm any green thing, but only to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. During the time of this plague of wrath, no one will be able to die in order to escape the torment inflicted by these demonic beings. For they will desire to die, but death will flee from them. Their king is that angel of the Abyss.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe

Four evil angels who are currently bound somewhere along the Euphrates River, will be released at the sounding of the 6th trumpet. They will gather 200 million demonic beings and will kill a third of the earths population via the fire, smoke and sulfur which will proceed from their mouths.

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe

At the middle of the seven years, Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth and will turn all of their evil and malice upon the earth during that last 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

The 5th trumpet just happens to be five months in length to carry out their time of torment. though there are no fatalities as a result of the 5th trumpet but only torment, the 6th trumpet will cause a third of the earths population to be killed. And that is not counting the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities caused by the seven bowl judgments, which will complete God's wrath.

Hope this is beneficial

 

[Lanolin]

Good day Lanolin,

The 5 months of torment that you referred to in Rev.9-5-6, is the 5th trumpet judgment and is also the first woe, of which there are three. The reason that I believe that trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are referred to as woes, is because they are all Satanic in nature:

5th Trumpet/1st Woe

Demonic beings resembling locusts, like horses prepared for battle, having hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth, human faces and tails and stingers like that of a scorpion. These are commanded to not harm any green thing, but only to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. During the time of this plague of wrath, no one will be able to die in order to escape the torment inflicted by these demonic beings. For they will desire to die, but death will flee from them. Their king is that angel of the Abyss.

6th Trumpet/2nd Woe

Four evil angels who are currently bound somewhere along the Euphrates River, will be released at the sounding of the 6th trumpet. They will gather 200 million demonic beings and will kill a third of the earths population via the fire, smoke and sulfur which will proceed from their mouths.

7th Trumpet/3rd Woe

At the middle of the seven years, Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth and will turn all of their evil and malice upon the earth during that last 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

The 5th trumpet just happens to be five months in length to carry out their time of torment. though there are no fatalities as a result of the 5th trumpet but only torment, the 6th trumpet will cause a third of the earths population to be killed. And that is not counting the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities caused by the seven bowl judgments, which will complete God's wrath.

Hope this is beneficial

Are the ones dispensing the woes and sounding the trumpets evil angels. I thought they were Gods holy angels.
The 5 month torments when people seek to die but cant...how is that related to the neverending torment and the lake of fire...it seems some people are claiming that those people cant ever die, yet scripture refers to the second death.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ahwatukee.
Respectfully, I would say you have a lot of company.

If after 45 years of study of God's word and specifically end-time events and I still don't know what I am talking about, then I would have no business teaching these truths. But in fact, through constant study and the teaching of the Spirit, I am proclaiming the truth regarding this subject. You would do well to listen and check the scriptures that I am providing.

My claim that Satan, demons and unbelievers will be tormented by having their deeds exposed in the light of Christ has not been disproved. Hey brother, have you ever had a dream that were outside, but you were naked and you were trying to hide from people? I had a dream like that once. I was ducking behind cars, trees....I was in a panick. Sure was glad when I woke up! But you see my brother, at Christ's judgment seat, there won't be anything to hide behind. Every sinful thing Satan and company have done "forever and ever" (that is, from age to age), will be seen. Please read 1Jn.4:18

First of all, demons would not be tormented because of their deeds, as they are purposeful. They do not regret doing them, as it is apart of their purpose and decisive. The torment has nothing to do with their deeds being exposed, but is torment, pure and simple for being God's enemies. Jesus said that everlasting fire/lake of fire, was prepared for Satan and his angels. And any human being who rejects Christ and dies in that state will be eternally separated from God and punished in the lake of fire along with them. As I stated in a previous post, all sin must and will be accounted for. Those who believe in Christ, He was held accountable experiencing God's wrath one behalf of every believer. Those who die without Christ, will be held accountable for their own sins. All sin must and will be addressed. King David understood this after his sin of adultery and murder with Bathsheba and Uriah when he confessed to God, "against you alone have I sinned." Therefore, all sin that mankind commits is against God and which is the reason for the severity of punishment. There is no mercy and grace after death for those who have died in their sins.

There is a time of wrath coming know also as "the day of the Lord" which the prophets and the apostles all prophesied about. Prior to that time of wrath, the Lord will keep His promise and gather His church, removing them from the earth. This wrath will be upon all of those who have rejected Christ and continue living according to the sinful nature.

The only way Jesus was "held accountable" for our sins is found in Eze.3:18-21. Jesus did not suffer "the wrath of God in place of us." He suffered "at the hand of men for us." As Peter says,

Oh really?! Jesus did not suffer?! God handed Jesus over to humiliation, persecution and a terrible death, suffering the wrath that every believer deserves:

"But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed."

So, if Jesus suffered "in place of us", there would be no way to follow his example, to suffer as he did.

We are to take up our crosses daily, which means that we are to be committed to Christ even in the face of persecution and the threat of death. By doing so, we are not taking God's wrath upon us, but enduring while keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

You shouldn't be teaching these things, because you know nothing of them. You need to listen and search the scriptures which are given to you. You are acting just like many other who are more concerned about being right, then learning the truth.

Jesus did indeed take upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve. For when we believed in Christ we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Regarding God's wrath, consider the following:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Since we believe in Christ, God's wrath no longer rests upon us, because it was already satisfied by Christ. He also met the righteous requirements of the law on every believers behalf and paid the penalty for our sins.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Deade]

If after 45 years of study of God's word and specifically end-time events and I still don't know what I am talking about, then I would have no business teaching these truths. But in fact, through constant study and the teaching of the Spirit, I am proclaiming the truth regarding this subject. You would do well to listen and check the scriptures that I am providing.

Whoa! Someone's ego is showing.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Are the ones dispensing the woes and sounding the trumpets evil angels. I thought they were Gods holy angels.

During the time of His wrath, God will be using His holy angels and will be utilizing fallen angels as well. For example: At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, an angel will fall from heaven to the earth having the key to the Abyss and will unlock it in order to release those demonic locust beings. Though the trumpet is sounded by a holy angel, the result will be demonic beings carrying out God's torment upon the inhabitants of the earth. Likewise, the angels who pour out the bowl judgments will also be holy angels. The first four seals will be opened by the four living beings, which are another class/type of angelic beings, which are also mentioned in Ezekiel and Isaiah.

The 5 month torments when people seek to die but cant...how is that related to the never-ending torment and the lake of fire...it seems some people are claiming that those people cant ever die, yet scripture refers to the second death.

The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place on this earth. Those who die who are against God, their spirits will depart from their bodies and will go into Sheol/Hades, the same place where the rich man of Lazarus fame went to, where he is in torment in flame. At the end of the millennial kingdom at the great whit throne judgment, all of the wicked will be resurrected out of Sheol/Hades and will stand before God to be judged. Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will then be thrown into the lake of fire, where they will be eternally separated from God in torment in flame.

So the answer to your question is that, there is going to be seven years of God's wrath upon this earth. And there will also be a judgment of the unrighteous dead and God's final wrath in the lake of fire.

 

[Journeyman]

The word "apokalupsis" translated "Revelation" means to reveal something that was previously hidden. The Revelation is not the revealing of Christ, but the revealing of the events that will take place in the very last days. Here is the scripture:

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass."

"What must soon come to pass," would be referring to future events from the time that Revelation was written and therefore cannot be speaking about events that have taken place throughout history. But being shown these things help you to learn more about end-time events, that is, if you receive them as a learning experience.

The Book of Revelation isn't describing the previously unknown future, because all the characters in it are described in the Prophets and can be seen to some degree throughout the history of this world. Examples of the suffering of God's people and those who caused it, the judgment of the wicked, etc has never changed, except in numbers. Jesus unsealing the scroll is teaching us that only those in Christ may know the scriptures.

Context is always paramount to understanding scripture. If you will go back and read Romans again, you will see that the wrath "orge" is defined as a slow festering wrath, which is being poured out upon those who suppress the truth, i.e. keep it from being known, by their wickedness. It is being directed at those who knew God, but neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, those who instead of worshiping God, worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. As a result, God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

In other words, nothing has changed.

Again, though Jesus will be revealed after His wrath has been poured out, the revelation is not the revealing of Christ, but the events that are about to take place.

Jesus has already been revealed to us through faith,

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you Act.3:19-20

In addition, Jesus said that all believers would have trials and tribulation, which come at the hands of the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the spiritual realm. However, what is going to ensue once the church is removed from the earth, will be God's direct, unprecedented wrath also known as "the day of the Lord" And which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The church cannot be on the earth to be exposed to God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. Regarding this, scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (Rom.5:9, 1 Thess.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10).

Jesus suffered at the hands of the world with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the spiritual realm and defeated them all. Your belief is the worst heresy that has ever infected the church. And I'm telling you this with no malice at all, but with sadness.

 

[RickyZ]

The smoke of their torment ascending before the throne forever speaks volumes.......!!

So here's a question... the Bible says on the New Earth we won't remember anything from this one. Ok, so if God's Throne is upon the New Earth, and the smoke ascends before the throne, will we not see that smoke as well and wonder what it's from?

 

[RickyZ]

The lake of fire is an actual place.

The Bible says that the wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth.

Jesus descended in to the lower parts of the earth, and then ascended.

So hell is in the lower parts of the earth.

Jesus went to conquer death, and hell, which He was given the keys of hell, and death, to release the sinners from it, and those that accept Him while alive to not go there.

The Bible says the earth shall be burned up, and all that is therein, for the earth is tainted with sin, and all sin must be purged with fire.

The Bible says that hell, and death, were thrown in to the lake of fire, so if hell is in the lower parts of the earth, and the earth shall be burned up, then the earth shall be thrown in to the lake of fire.

Which all the sinners are in the lower parts of the earth, and when the devils are cast to earth in the future, and they deceive all people that do not love God, the earth becomes the habitation of devils, which is their holding cell and they are confined to the earth.

And this supports my theory that the lake of fire IS this earth and universe, decreated. If atomic chaos is the interior state of this world, and that is where hell resides during it's existence, lends credence to the idea that will be it's outward state once God lets it go.

 

[dcontroversal]

So here's a question... the Bible says on the New Earth we won't remember anything from this one. Ok, so if God's Throne is upon the New Earth, and the smoke ascends before the throne, will we not see that smoke as well and wonder what it's from?

Why would you think we would know or understand what is taking place?.......the bible states clearly we will see things as he sees things and do you think our perspective will be the same......? These people die as enemies of the cross and of us.......and since when is the throne in heaven part of this world that will be forgotten......?

 

[RickyZ]

I think the revelation of Jesus Christ goes back to the beginning of creation. I believe all the "end time" events can be seen in ways throughout history. For instance,

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness Rom.1:18

And God has always offered grace to people and protected his people through tribulation. I have a thought that "Jesus being revealed" doesn't only occur at the end of this world, but also includes the end of this world in the lives of believers throughout the history of mankind.

Where's the rep button of old.

Many will not understand what you said here.

But yes, the word of God is eternal and as such reverberates thru all of time. One manifestation of it does not render it moot. The Day of the Lord will manifest in a physical 1,000 year rule over earth by Christ; but the effects of that time echo all the way back to the first day of creation.

And your statement "also includes the end of this world in the lives of believers throughout the history of mankind" - exactly. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment - that's your rapture, baby. That's your end o the world. That's your gathering to the Day.

 

[RickyZ]

Why would you think we would know or understand what is taking place?.......the bible states clearly we will see things as he sees things and do you think our perspective will be the same......? These people die as enemies of the cross and of us.......and since when is the throne in heaven part of this world that will be forgotten......?

Ok just to set the time frame, we're talking new earth, New Jerusalem upon the New Earth, God's Throne now residing upon earth in New Jerusalem. This is after the tribulation and rapture and millennium, and after the decreation of this world and creation of the new. There are nations of the saved upon the New Earth.

This is also after all those gifts we argue about are fully restored - what we know now in part, we will know then in full, right?

Ok so the smoke from the lake of fire rises up before the throne of God, on the new earth, before the nations of the saved. Will the nations of the saved not also see it, and having full knowledge restored, know what it is from?