The Lake of Fire

[louis]

I don't think darkness is a place. I think it's a state people are in,

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1Jn.2:9

But even until now, those in darkness may come into the light through Jesus. So "outer darkness" can mean a persons state of being unsaved is permanent and this judgment may cause tears and wailing without the tears and waIling lasting eternally.

It's interesting that passages about "outer darkness" have to do with hypocrisy. John says that without are murderers, sorcerers, etc. Doesn't that go without saying? Could it be people think they're saved, but they're not,

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1Jn.3:15

So Jesus said,

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Mt.5:22

I mention these things because the passage you fired says,

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev.22:11

In other words, how we are now, is how we will be seen later and Jesus tries not only people's works, but people themselves.

All who are not written in the book of life, shall all be together with death, hell, the Antichrist, and the devil in the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20; 20:10; 20:14; 20:15), which then would have to be they who are without/outside in Revelation 22:15.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[louis]

I don't think darkness is a place. I think it's a state people are in,

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1Jn.2:9

And yes, darkness is a state people are in, when the light, the Lords illumination is not present (Isaiah 60:2).

Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

 

[Journeyman]

You need to go back to square one, since you are equating the judgment of the Church with the judgment of the unsaved. Two totally separate and UNRELATED judgments.

I've been to square one. They're separate only because of who is in us, not because of the time it takes place.

 

[Journeyman]

All who are not written in the book of life, shall all be together with death, hell, the Antichrist, and the devil in the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20; 20:10; 20:14; 20:15), which then would have to be they who are without/outside in Revelation 22:15.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

He's not only saying "you shall be". He's saying "you are now". Death and the grave being cast into the lake of fire no longer exist and neither does anyone with them.

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Mt.8:22

Why? Because in Christ, death and the grace no longer pertain to us. These things are done away in Christ. It's only the manifestation of this truth unbelievers haven't seen yet.

 

[louis]

He's not only saying "you shall be". He's saying "you are now". Death and the grave being cast into the lake of fire no longer exist and neither does anyone with them.

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Mt.8:22

Why? Because in Christ, death and the grace no longer pertain to us. These things are done away in Christ.

As the events in Revelation 20-22 come in at the end of the millennium reign, at which time all who are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake, including death and hell; your assertion then that the lake of fire no longer exists denies Gods Word where these do exist.

 

[Journeyman]

As the events in Revelation 20-22 come in at the end of the millennium reign, at which time all who are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake, including death and hell; your assertion then that the lake of fire no longer exists denies Gods Word where these do exist.

Well Louis, I think its sad that people are waiting for Jesus to come and begin his reign, instead of submitting to his reign over them now.

To me, the only time factor that separates the saved from the unsaved is the longsuffering he has for us now.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor.15:54

So when we receive our new glorified bodies, believe there is another 1000 years and then more enemies after that If you want to. I dont.

 

[Lanolin]

Well Louis, I think its sad that people are waiting for Jesus to come and begin his reign, instead of submitting to his reign over them now.

To me, the only time factor that separates the saved from the unsaved is the longsuffering he has for us now.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor.15:54

So when we receive our new glorified bodies, believe there is another 1000 years and then more enemies after that If you want to. I dont.

The bible says the two resurrections are separated by 1000 years. I believe the Bible.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I never said or implied this.

Well, the suffering that Jesus experienced is the wrath that all believers deserve. As the scripture states, "He was crushed for our sins." The wrath that we deserve was placed on Him and therefore the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer because Jesus satisfied it on our behalf.

He's not only saying "you shall be". He's saying "you are now". Death and the grave being cast into the lake of fire no longer exist and neither does anyone with them.

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Mt.8:22

Why? Because in Christ, death and the grace no longer pertain to us. These things are done away in Christ. It's only the manifestation of this truth unbelievers haven't seen yet.

Everyone, Satan, his angels, the beast, the false prophet, death and Hades (personified) and all of humanity who are cast into the lake of fire will exist forever. Life and death or both states of on-going existence. The second Death is the state is existing in separation from God and all His glory in the lake of fire. Death is not annihilation or extinction. The rich man of Lazarus fame whom Jesus spoke of, is still conscious and aware in torment in flame in Sheol/Hades till this very moment and will continue to be so until the great white throne judgment, where he, along with the rest of the wicked dead throughout all of history, will be resurrected and will stand before God to be condemned to be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont think the sun will burn itself out anytime soon. But anyone cast there probably would be fried to a crisp. You couldnt get them back.

I think the problem is seeing things from eternity. According to some scientists all that ever exists will always be no new atoms are made and nothing can be destroyed just changes existence. But apparently suns that burn themselves out become black holes. Who can explain black holes? They are like holes in the universe that suck all light and everything down them into who knows where?? The outer darkness? Is this annihlations? I dont know all I know is, if one falls into a black hole, one can never escape.

 

[Journeyman]

The bible says the two resurrections are separated by 1000 years. I believe the Bible.

That's fine. The Bible says scripture is spiritually discerned. There's an understanding to it that isn't physical.

 

[Lanolin]

That's fine. The Bible says scripture is spiritually discerned. There's an understanding to it that isn't physical.

What is your understanding then. That a thousand years is as one day.. but that is to the Lord isnt it. Maybe it passes by quicker for you.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What is your understanding then. That a thousand years is as one day.. but that is to the Lord isnt it. Maybe it passes by quicker for you.

Hello Lanolin,

You are correct in that, the thousand years, is referring to a literal thousand years, not one that is not physical as Journeyman implied. A literal thousand years is further cemented in, as it is stated 6 times throughout Rev.20:1-7. When something is repeated over and over again, we should pay attention, understanding that this is what is meant.

 

[Hevosmies]

Well Louis, I think its sad that people are waiting for Jesus to come and begin his reign, instead of submitting to his reign over them now.

So you are amill? I got no problem with that. I disagree though

I just want to ask you to reconsider. Just take a step back, chuck out everything you've ever heard and take a look at this world, actually even take a look at believers and the Church. Then ask yourself: Is this THE Kingdom spoken of in the OT?

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Have the nations been judged? Or are the nations still wicked and persecuting Christians worldwide?
Has warfare ceased? Or are there still wars constantly?

If you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit that Isaiah 2:4 HAS NOT been fulfilled yet. Do you agree with this?

 

[Nehemiah6]

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26

Death is personified in Revelation. And death is *destroyed* by being abolished. That happens AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and just BEFORE the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.

And death and hell [HADES] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death... And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev 20:14; 21:1)

Since death and Hades cannot be literally cast into the Lake of Fire, they are personified. What it actually means is that death will be abolished from the earth because sin and evil will be eradicated from the earth, and all the unbelievers, the wicked and the evildoers will be in the Lake of Fire (which is in outer darkness, meaning outside of space). Therefore there will be no need for Hades either, which was for the unrighteous dead.

 

[Journeyman]

Well, the suffering that Jesus experienced is the wrath that all believers deserve.

No he didn't, because the scriptures say,

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree Deu.21:22.

Jesus committed no sin worthy of death. He was falsely accused and put to death unjustly. Furthermore, believers are not worthy of death in God's eyes because they repent. God says,

when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Eze.18;27-28

Jesus said, I tell you....except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:5

As the scripture states, "He was crushed for our sins."

Yes brother, I've told you repeatedly, Jesus came preaching repentance because we're sinners and men judged him for it.

every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

In other words, you will not falsely convict another person.

shed not innocent blood Jer.7:6

That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee. Deu.19:10

The wrath that we deserve was placed on Him and therefore the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer because Jesus satisfied it on our behalf.

No. The judgment reserved for people who are truly guilty was unjustly put on Jesus,

we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24

If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. Jn.18:30

Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death. Mk.14:64

All lies.

The truth is, God said,

I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him....but the husbandmen....killed him Lk.20:13-15

The truth is, Jesus taught that God forgives the repentant,

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:16-17

God was not happy that Jesus was killed, but was happy that he remained faithful even if it meant being killed.

Everyone, Satan, his angels, the beast, the false prophet, death and Hades (personified) and all of humanity who are cast into the lake of fire will exist forever. Life and death or both states of on-going existence. The second Death is the state is existing in separation from God and all His glory in the lake of fire. Death is not annihilation or extinction. Tell man of Lazarus fame whom Jesus spoke of, is still conscious and aware in torment in flame in Sheol/Hades till this very moment and will continue to be so until the great white throne judgment, where he, along with the rest of the wicked dead throughout all of history, will be resurrected and will stand before God to be condemned to be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire.

Death for sin is just. Unendinding torment isn't justice. And casting inanimate concepts like death and the grave into fire should conjure the thought of extinguishing, not continuing.

 

[Journeyman]

What is your understanding then. That a thousand years is as one day.. but that is to the Lord isnt it. Maybe it passes by quicker for you.

I believe Peter's statement is related to the thousand years reign of Christ and to creation itself.
God created Adam in one day (a 24 hour period). Paul calls Jesus the 2nd Adam, but he is God in flesh. Paul also says his purpose is to create in himself "one new man". Not one man, but believers collectively one in Christ, one man created in Gods image.

After creating Adam (the 1st Adam, the man of the earth) in his image, God rested the 7th day. But this is the earthly version. Jesus said, my Father is still working. The 2nd Adam is "the Lord from heaven". The heavenly version is, when the new man (all of us one in Jesus) is complete in the image of God, when the last believer is saved, when the church is complete, the work of God is done. So, Christ ruling for a thousand years (in one day) made the man in Gods image. Then, he rested. No 1000 years later and then more rebellion. No.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No he didn't, because the scriptures say,

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree Deu.21:22.

Jesus committed no sin worthy of death. He was falsely accused and put to death unjustly. Furthermore, believers are not worthy of death in God's eyes because they repent. God says,

Without Jesus their would be no option of repentance! Salvation is obtained by believing in Jesus who provided salvation by the shedding of His blood and repentance follows. Jesus suffered God's wrath on every believers behalf, which is why the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer.

every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

The above is true for those without faith, not those with faith. For Jesus also said, "though they (believers) die, yet shall they live.

Jesus did the following:

He took upon himself the wrath of God that all believers deserve because of sin

He met the righteous requirements of the law on every believers behalf

He paid the penalty for our sins by the shedding of His blood. For scripture states that "unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins.

This is the truth and I am not going to debate it with you any longer. Believe what you will.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe Peter's statement is related to the thousand years reign of Christ and to creation itself.
God created Adam in one day (a 24 hour period). Paul calls Jesus the 2nd Adam, but he is God in flesh. Paul also says his purpose is to create in himself "one new man". Not one man, but believers collectively one in Christ, one man created in Gods image.

After creating Adam (the 1st Adam, the man of the earth) in his image, God rested the 7th day. But this is the earthly version. Jesus said, my Father is still working. The 2nd Adam is "the Lord from heaven". The heavenly version is, when the new man (all of us one in Jesus) is complete in the image of God, when the last believer is saved, when the church is complete, the work of God is done. So, Christ ruling for a thousand years (in one day) made the man in Gods image. Then, he rested. No 1000 years later and then more rebellion. No.

Journeyman, Peter's saying "With God a thousand years is as one day and a day is as a thousand" was never meant as a plumb line for figuring out prophesy, or anything else. If you read the entire context, that saying is meant to show God is not restricted to time as we are. People like to attempt to make this a formula to set dates for the Lord's return and such, which is their error. It is only meant to show that God is not bound by time.

The thousand years referred to in Rev.20:-7 is referring to a literal thousand year period, not figurative or spiritual, but literal. This millennial kingdom is even spoken of in Dan.2 when the Rock that was cut out of the mountain without human hands falls on the feet of the statue, smashing it to pieces. Then the Rock that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

The statue was made up of Babylon, Medio/Persia, Greece and Rome, which are gentile nations and which represent all of the Gentile governments.

The Rock cut out of the mountain is Jesus.

The Rock's falling on the feet of the statue (Gentile nations) is referring to "the day of the Lord" when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The Rock becoming a huge mountain and filling the entire earth, is referring to that thousand year kingdom mentioned in Revelation.

There is no need to allegorize or symbolize the thousand years, for it will be a literal thousand year period.

1) He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

2) And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete.

3) And they (great tribulation saints) came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

4) The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.

5) The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

6 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations)

Anyone who attempts to allegorize or symbolize those verses above which is declaring a literal thousand year time span, are simply not believing what the scripture is saying and thereby distorting the word of God.

Satan is thrown into the Abyss at the on-set of the thousand years and is released at the end of the thousand years.

When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the thousand years begins and the great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during that same thousand.

At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released from the Abyss and will deceive the inhabitants of the earth one last time and will then be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Journeyman]

So you are amill? I got no problem with tha I disagree though.

I guess I'm a "now" mil.

I just want to ask you to reconsider. Just take a step back, chuck out everything you've ever heard and take a look at this world, actually even take a look at believers and the Church. Then ask yourself: Is this THE Kingdom spoken of in the OT?

I have and I will ask you to do the same.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Have the nations been judged? Or are the nations still wicked and persecuting Christians worldwide?
Has warfare ceased? Or are there still wars constantly?

If you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit that Isaiah 2:4 HAS NOT been fulfilled yet. Do you agree with this?

I agree with what Isaiah is saying, but not how you understand him. You're understanding is exactly how Jews who reject Jesus read the passage. The argument that, "Jesus isn't the Messiah, because the Messiah will bring world peace.

We need to interpret Isaiah in light of what Jesus said.

Isaiah said the Messiah would being peace to the world, not world peace.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jn.14:27

So the nations (the gentiles) who beat their swords into plowshares are believers in Christ, not every person on earth.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa.2:2

People from all nations, not every person in every nation, will come to his church,

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa.11:9

The knowledge of God comes from the gospel being spread to the world, but "they" (Christs followers, in the church, in Gods holy mountain) do not hurt or destroy..

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb.12:22

 

[TheLearner]

No the lake of fire is an actual place I have seen it with my own eyes when I was in hell, not that I was sent there to be damned it was for a different reason. The lake of fire is literal it is huge and people are screaming and burning literally begging for death but they never die they have immortal bodies that never die yet feels pain and flesh burns just like a real body.

how do you answer the luke 16 thread?