The Prophet John the Baptist’ Message

[posthuman]

Not only that, Mark says you must believe AND be baptized in order to be saved. Doesn't that show that water baptism is required for salvation?

the next verse says who does not believe is condemned, but it does not say who is not baptized is condemned. this is not to say that anyone should refuse or neglect baptism, but belief is the pivot of salvation, not sacramental actions. there are several baptisms mentioned in the NT - water via John, water into Christ, spirit & fire by Christ, into Moses through the sea and the cloud. but the scripture says also, there is now only one baptism. there is also one circumcision for us, and it is not by human hands.
i would hesitate to say salvation is contingent on water baptism; Christ told the disciples they were clean by the word He spoke to them, and the NT doesn't record any of their baptisms in water. this doesn't mean they weren't, but it is a big indication about priority

 

[posthuman]

My guess is that you attend a church belonging to the Church of Christ or similar? They are well known for their insistence on the requirement of water baptism.

he sounds presbyterian to me *shrug*

 

[Wansvic]

My guess is that you attend a church belonging to the Church of Christ or similar? They are well known for their insistence on the requirement of water baptism.

One would think all churches would be insisting on doing what Jesus commanded; go into all the nations teach and water baptize. Also, He said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

 

[Wansvic]

Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. This is being baptized in the name of Jesus is the power of Jesus. We are baptized when we hear the gospel and believe .The gospel and not water is the power of God unto salivation.


Water baptism has a different understanding having to do with a ceremonial law .

You need only read the Book of Acts to know that one is to be baptized in water and baptized with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Wansvic]

My guess is that you attend a church belonging to the Church of Christ or similar? They are well known for their insistence on the requirement of water baptism.

Which church one attends is irrelevant. A person cannot go astray by obeying what the bible record teaches.
Matt 28:19-20
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Matt 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

[Wansvic]

he sounds presbyterian to me *shrug*

Which church one attends is irrelevant. A person cannot go astray by obeying what the bible record teaches.
Matt 28:19-20
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Matt 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

[Wansvic]

the next verse says who does not believe is condemned, but it does not say who is not baptized is condemned. this is not to say that anyone should refuse or neglect baptism, but belief is the pivot of salvation, not sacramental actions. there are several baptisms mentioned in the NT - water via John, water into Christ, spirit & fire by Christ, into Moses through the sea and the cloud. but the scripture says also, there is now only one baptism. there is also one circumcision for us, and it is not by human hands.
i would hesitate to say salvation is contingent on water baptism; Christ told the disciples they were clean by the word He spoke to them, and the NT doesn't record any of their baptisms in water. this doesn't mean they weren't, but it is a big indication about priority

He who believes will obey the Word and get water baptized and be saved. He who does not believe is damned already because without belief when one gets water baptized the only thing that happens is they get wet. Nothing takes place in the spiritual realm without belief prior to one's action in accordance to God's commands.

 

[Guojing]

the next verse says who does not believe is condemned, but it does not say who is not baptized is condemned. this is not to say that anyone should refuse or neglect baptism, but belief is the pivot of salvation, not sacramental actions. there are several baptisms mentioned in the NT - water via John, water into Christ, spirit & fire by Christ, into Moses through the sea and the cloud. but the scripture says also, there is now only one baptism. there is also one circumcision for us, and it is not by human hands.
i would hesitate to say salvation is contingent on water baptism; Christ told the disciples they were clean by the word He spoke to them, and the NT doesn't record any of their baptisms in water. this doesn't mean they weren't, but it is a big indication about priority

Actually, that is a very minor point. If you don't believe, you will certainly not be willing to undergo water baptism.

So there is no need for the Great Commission in Mark to say he that does not believe AND is not baptized shall be condemned. If you truly believe in the Great Commission is for us today, you have to interpret Mark as saying both conditions are necessary for salvation. That was what Peter also said at Pentecost for the Jews who asked him, "What must we do to be saved?"

But I agree with you, water baptism is no longer necessary for salvation, but that is because I adopt a dispensationalist view towards the New Testament, as I have discussed here.

 

[Guojing]

Which church one attends is irrelevant. A person cannot go astray by obeying what the bible record teaches.
Matt 28:19-20
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Matt 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

You are a Gentile and not a Jew correct? Ever heard the perspective that Paul is our Apostle and we should look towards his letters for Church Doctrine instead?

 

[posthuman]

Actually, that is a very minor point. If you don't believe, you will certainly not be willing to undergo water baptism.

i am not sure i would say that everyone who is baptized, believes. who are those John says 'went out from us' proving that they 'were never of us' ? unbaptized people, or baptized people? and don't we often lament about shallow evangelical ministries that leave essential truths out, producing people who believe they are 'Christian' simply because they were baptized and attend church with some kind of regularity, but who, in truth, have never really known and fully received the gospel?

whatever level of qualitative significance you attach to the point - that lack of belief is specified as resulting in condemnation, but lack of H2O baptism is not specified in the same way - to my understanding this point shows that Mark 16:16 does not prove baptism is necessary for salvation. it proves belief is, but it is ambiguous about the necessity of baptism, though it certainly recommends it.

all i am saying is, no, Mark 16:16 is not a proof text for H2O baptism as prerequisite to salvation.
you may find proof elsewhere, in another text or combination of texts, and i don't contest that this verse strongly encourages baptism, but it does not say 'whoever is not baptized is condemned' and that is what it would need to say to prove that is the case.

 

[garee]

You are a Gentile and not a Jew correct? Ever heard the perspective that Paul is our Apostle and we should look towards his letters for Church Doctrine instead?

If the prophecy of Christ was from the mind and will of Paul we could look for a difference between one prophet or another .

But being a Jew that were used to either represent one who believes in a God not seen (a inward born again Jew) and another as one that has no faith as a "outward Jew pertaining to the corrupted flesh.... no belief in a God not seen. The latter stands in the same place of the gentile nations .God puts no difference between the two.

Now that the reformation( first century) has come there is no longer a need for a outward representative in ceremonial laws . The government as a result of the fist century reformation has been restored to the time period when their was Judges . Men and woman alike to be as prophets and priests after the order of Melchezedek as two personalities working together as one body, used to bring the gospel into the world.

We are given a new ceremonial law as a shadow used for when a family gathers together as one ordinance, two fold to be used as a representative glory of the unseen glory of God that will be revealed when we receive our new bodies, as the bride of Christ. .

The head un-covering for the man to represent Christ is our unseen head. Using a woman as a representative glory for her husband to reflect the represent the bride of Christ as the new unseen creature we will be. We are not what we will be today. And not leaving a woman without her own representative glory "her hair". It must be covered seeing the only glory to be shown is the glory of faith .It will become sight when we receive the promise of out new bodies. We celebrate the upcoming event of the wedding supper when we have received our new bodies using the with the breaking of bread and drinking the blood of grapes.

Today the head covering..... un-covering portion of that part of the ceremony has all but lost its ability to shine as representative witness to the angels who long to look into the things of salvation

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for "the time" then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them "until" the time of reformation .Hebrews 9:8-10

 

[garee]

Actually, that is a very minor point. If you don't believe, you will certainly not be willing to undergo water baptism.

So there is no need for the Great Commission in Mark to say he that does not believe AND is not baptized shall be condemned. If you truly believe in the Great Commission is for us today, you have to interpret Mark as saying both conditions are necessary for salvation. That was what Peter also said at Pentecost for the Jews who asked him, "What must we do to be saved?"

But I agree with you, water baptism is no longer necessary for salvation, but that is because I adopt a dispensationalist view towards the New Testament, as I have discussed here.

The person that the Holy Spirit does not baptize with His Spirit will be condemned because he has not believed in a God, not seen. (no faith)

For if any man has not the Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to Him Christ. Romans 8:9

The key to understanding water purifying ceremony is found in the Old testament .Its roots as a foundation are not found in the Great Commission. But rather when a new priest would desire to be part of the ministry . It was that in which the discussion was about in John 3:25

Not sure where or when the H20 tradition became more a new testament foundation to confirm something rather that to express a desire to serve? I think it was more of those who desire a sign other than they have believed .

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John 3:25

I believe the question was. Why was Jesus from the tribe of Judah performing the work of a Levi?

 

[Wansvic]

You are a Gentile and not a Jew correct? Ever heard the perspective that Paul is our Apostle and we should look towards his letters for Church Doctrine instead?

The salvation message that includes water and Holy Ghost baptism was made available to the Gentiles as recorded below:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." Acts 10:43-48

Also, Paul's own baptism is recorded:
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:15-16

Lastly, Paul's own epistles reference water and Holy Ghost baptism:
Rom 6:3-5 (Water Baptism) “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”

1 Cor 1:15-16 (Water Baptism) “Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.”

1 Cor 12:13 (Water and Spirit Baptism) “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Gal 3:2 (Spirit Baptism) “This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

Gal 3:27 (Water Baptism) “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Eph 4:4-5 (Water and Spirit Baptism) “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,”

Col 2:12 (Water Baptism) “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Titus 3:5-6 (Water and Spirit Baptism) “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;”

Heb 4:1-2 “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

 

[Nehemiah6]

The salvation message that includes water and Holy Ghost baptism was made available to the Gentiles as recorded below

Water is a metaphor for the Word of God, not ordinary H2O. It can also be a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26)

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Ezek 36:25,26).

Ordinary water cannot wash away internal filthiness and idolatry.

 

[oldethennew]

hub's and my 'safety-net', is to do what our Holy Saviour has done -
we could care less what the 'world' says that we should do...

 

[Guojing]

all i am saying is, no, Mark 16:16 is not a proof text for H2O baptism as prerequisite to salvation.
you may find proof elsewhere, in another text or combination of texts, and i don't contest that this verse strongly encourages baptism, but it does not say 'whoever is not baptized is condemned' and that is what it would need to say to prove that is the case.

Peter understood Mark 16:16 completely, that was why he replied in Acts 2 to the classic question.

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the [k]remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Its only when it came to Paul, under the dispensation of grace, when he changed it to, in Acts 16

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

They were baptized only after they are saved from believing, which fits what you are trying to say here.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Thus, if you don't rightly divide the word into those under law dispensation and grace dispensation, you cannot be conclude that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

 

[Guojing]

The salvation message that includes water and Holy Ghost baptism was made available to the Gentiles as recorded below:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." Acts 10:43-48

Also, Paul's own baptism is recorded:
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:15-16

Lastly, Paul's own epistles reference water and Holy Ghost baptism:

You could have quote that classic verse of his, 1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Look, I have no objections to Christians wanting to get water baptized to testify publicly, to their parents and friends, that they believe in the Lord Jesus and his resurrection.

But to call water baptism as necessary for salvation, I would disagree.

 

[Wansvic]

Water is a metaphor for the Word of God, not ordinary H2O. It can also be a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word (Eph 5:26)

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (Ezek 36:25,26).

Ordinary water cannot wash away internal filthiness and idolatry.

The bible record clearly shows a need for obedience by immersing in water baptism, and afterward continual washing of water by the Word.
The natural flow of water over one's body plays absolutely no part in one's sins being remitted. One can conclude from many scriptures on the topic that when one is obedient to God's command to be water baptized something is activated in the spiritual realm.
Jesus left us an example to follow when He was water baptized by John the Baptist. (Mark 1:9-11)
He also said mankind is to follow Him in the regeneration. (Matthew 19:28)
Paul also states one's need to be water and Holy Ghost baptized. (Titus 3:5)
Each and every group of people; Jewish, Gentile and Samaritans (half-Jewish and half-Gentile), received and obeyed the message they were given. The following scriptures clearly indicate that no one was excluded from the need to obey God's plan of salvation: Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16.

 

[Lanolin]

You could have quote that classic verse of his, 1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Look, I have no objections to Christians wanting to get water baptized to testify publicly, to their parents and friends, that they believe in the Lord Jesus and his resurrection.

But to call water baptism as necessary for salvation, I would disagree.

Paul was saying he was preaching the gospel as that was his calling other people administered baptism after they heard it. Like silas and barnabas. PAul actually did baptise a few people like Crispus and Gaius, if you read the who,e passage. He just didnt want anyone accusing him of baptising people in his own name.

When we baptise, we baptise in the name of Jesus. Not by the person doing the baptism or the church denom. And its not solely for our parents and friends to see its for our Father to fufill all rightoeusness. Why did Jesus do it? To obey His Father...even John did not want to baptise him at first.

 

[Wansvic]

You could have quote that classic verse of his, 1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Look, I have no objections to Christians wanting to get water baptized to testify publicly, to their parents and friends, that they believe in the Lord Jesus and his resurrection.

But to call water baptism as necessary for salvation, I would disagree.

Salvation requires sin be remitted. Ananias told Paul water baptism was needed in order to wash away sins and he did it. So it does not make sense that he would say it was not necessary: "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

The scripture you quote in 1 Corinthians does not mean baptism was not needed. Water baptism was not Paul's primary ministry. He preached the gospel, others performed water baptism, others taught, etc. This truth can be seen in the many references to water baptism in his epistles: Rom 6:3-5, 1 Cor 1:15-16, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, Eph 4:4-5, Col 2:12, Titus 3:5-6, Heb 4:1-2.

Day of Pentecost - Jews present asked what they needed to do beings they played a part in the Messiah's crucifixion:
Acts 2:37-39
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jailer and his family told how to be saved. Notice they were water baptized at midnight confirming baptism is not done merely as a public display.
Acts 16:30-33
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

God sent and angel to advise Cornelius (Gentile) how to find out what was needed to be saved:
Acts 11:13-14
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 10:45-48
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.