Sons of God and daughters of Men

[jaybird88]

a. There is a heavenly FORM which is spiritual and a EARTHLY form which takes FLESH (numerous examples of ANGELS and even JESUS taking flesh)

sons of Most High and sons of man denotes the two forms it also denotes a beings origin. people in the old days knew this. the ancient Hebrews were not the only ones to use the term. people in Babylon, Canaan and Egypt use the same "sons of the Most High" phrase when referring to those that came from the heavens.
also "sons of the Most High" is a specific phrase, its not the same as a prophet talking the Father and the people of Israel are His children.

 

[Blik]

When the ancient writings we have decided not to believe explain the Sons of Men and giants, so completely it seems to me that we should listen to what they say. How they are explained fits perfectly with what the scriptures we accept say. If you search for the time, reasons, and place for taking these books out of scripture, it was for political reasons, not as a means for following God.

Enoch tells us that a group of angels rebelled and were led to take on human form and make children with humans. These children were evil and so large, requiring much food. God destroyed them with the flood to protect people. They endangered everyone.

Scripture tells us that one group of angels can take on human form. “Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it” (Hebrews 13:2, NIV).

 

[obedienttogod]

Well, for one thing, this is not a vision of Job's nor is he recounting this story. Also, the book of Job was written more than likely by Moses, not Job. So, are you assuming that because Satan and God are having this conversation that this "presentation" of the sons of God is something that is taking place in heaven? If so, what could this possibly have to do with Job and why would one automatically assume that Satan must be in heaven for this conversation between Satan and God to be taking place?

Leviticus defines the terminology for us about one's presentation to Jehovah. The presentation of one's self before God is precisely what those in the Levitical system did who brought their sacrifices to the altar. God told them that when they brought their gifts to the altar, he would meet them there and bless them and forgive their sins. This is indicative of an act of worship. There is no reason that this is not simply referring to the worshipers of God - sons of God, who lived in the time of Job. It seems rather obvious that Job is one of these and God points him out to Satan and asks have you considered my servant Job? Would this not seem to better fit the context?

If this is a worship scenario the presence of God is among his worshipers (See the examples of the offering of sacrifices in Exodus 25:22 "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.") This then is an earth-bound experience. Clearly, Satan is also present. This does not necessitate that this is taking place in heaven. This is unwarranted conjecture.

I have a question for you after you have had time to read these scriptures (especially certain words I have in bold)

1 Kings 22:
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Interesting enough, 2 chronicles 18 states same scriptures:
18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.





Notice verses 19 of Kings and 18 of Chronicles: the LORD was sitting upon His throne and the [[host of heaven]] were standing on His right and left side.

Not notice verses 21 of Kings and 20 of Chronicles: a SPIRIT stood before the LORD and said he would be a lying spirit.

Interesting here, we have [[HOST of Heaven]] and then it breaks down to a [[SPIRIT]] stood before the LORD.



Now my question:

It would seem by reasoning and common sense here, this [[SPIRIT]] that volunteered would not be a good angel, but rather a fallen angel for what he is volunteering to do (he is basically going to LIE). It does not seem logical that God would have a good angel do such a task. So, for the sake of an debated argument, I am assuming this SPIRIT was an actual [[fallen angel - fallen sons of God]].

Now why is that important?

Because verses 19 of Kings and 18 of Chronicles: [[makes it clear WHO is standing before God]] : the LORD was sitting upon His throne and the [[host of heaven]] were standing on His right and left side.

This would mean when Satan presented himself before God, with the [[sons of God]] in the Book of Job, the sons of God include both good and fallen angels.




A side note: I agree that Job was written by Moses. Job is our oldest Book of the Canon, Moses wrote it before his most famous work.

 

[oldhermit]

I have a question for you after you have had time to read these scriptures (especially certain words I have in bold)

1 Kings 22:
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Interesting enough, 2 chronicles 18 states same scriptures:
18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.





Notice verses 19 of Kings and 18 of Chronicles: the LORD was sitting upon His throne and the [[host of heaven]] were standing on His right and left side.

Not notice verses 21 of Kings and 20 of Chronicles: a SPIRIT stood before the LORD and said he would be a lying spirit.

Interesting here, we have [[HOST of Heaven]] and then it breaks down to a [[SPIRIT]] stood before the LORD.



Now my question:

It would seem by reasoning and common sense here, this [[SPIRIT]] that volunteered would not be a good angel, but rather a fallen angel for what he is volunteering to do (he is basically going to LIE). It does not seem logical that God would have a good angel do such a task. So, for the sake of an debated argument, I am assuming this SPIRIT was an actual [[fallen angel - fallen sons of God]].

Now why is that important?

Because verses 19 of Kings and 18 of Chronicles: [[makes it clear WHO is standing before God]] : the LORD was sitting upon His throne and the [[host of heaven]] were standing on His right and left side.

This would mean when Satan presented himself before God, with the [[sons of God]] in the Book of Job, the sons of God include both good and fallen angels.




A side note: I agree that Job was written by Moses. Job is our oldest Book of the Canon, Moses wrote it before his most famous work.

Wow, that is quite an assumption. Why would you assume this is a fallen angel simply because he put a lie in the mouths of the prophets of Baal? God himself agreed to the idea. Does this make God evil? In 2 Thess 2:11-12, Paul says concerning those who would not believe that, "God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." Also, in 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that God has "blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Does this make God an evil spirit?

 

[Nehemiah6]

A side note: I agree that Job was written by Moses. Job is our oldest Book of the Canon, Moses wrote it before his most famous work.

No one really know who wrote the book of Job, even though the rabbis assumed it was Moses. It is entirely possible that Job himself wrote this book after his excruciating experiences, since the language of Job does not resemble the language of Moses. Since it is definitely a part of the Hebrew canon, this book was divinely inspired and has many insights which are amazing.

 

[oldhermit]

No one really know who wrote the book of Job, even though the rabbis assumed it was Moses. It is entirely possible that Job himself wrote this book after his excruciating experiences, since the language of Job does not resemble the language of Moses. Since it is definitely a part of the Hebrew canon, this book was divinely inspired and has many insights which are amazing.

You are right that we really do not know for sure that Moses was the author however it is highly unlikely that it was Job because Job lived in a time before Abraham and may have lived before the development of written languages.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are right that we really do not know for sure that Moses was the author however it is highly unlikely that it was Job because Job lived in a time before Abraham and may have lived before the development of written languages.

As far as we know, written languages were in existence around 2,500 BC. Abraham was born around 2,000 BC. Job was probably a contemporary of Abraham, living in the land of Uz, which was due east of Israel, therefore somewhere in the Arabian peninsula, probably close to the border of Chaldea (Iraq).

 

[oldhermit]

As far as we know, written languages were in existence around 2,500 BC. Abraham was born around 2,000 BC. Job was probably a contemporary of Abraham, living in the land of Uz, which was due east of Israel, therefore somewhere in the Arabian peninsula, probably close to the border of Chaldea (Iraq).

It may be possible that he was a contemporary with Abraham, but if he was, he would have been old when Abraham was a young man. Job lived at a time when men were still living 300 years or more. Abraham was a very old man at 175. The Sumerians may have developed a written language as early as 3500 BC.

 

[dcontroversal]

I think it is hilariously sad that people believe that man was stupid and did not have written language until 3500 B.C...........oblivious to the fact that the old world perished in the flood....when evidence globally when not suppressed indicates that man from day one was as smart if not smarter than men today.....!!!

 

[jaybird88]

I think it is hilariously sad that people believe that man was stupid and did not have written language until 3500 B.C...........oblivious to the fact that the old world perished in the flood....when evidence globally when not suppressed indicates that man from day one was as smart if not smarter than men today.....!!!

apparently man knew how to design cities but didnt know how to write their name? hard to believe.

 

[jaybird88]

gobekli tepe is 12500 years old and they had writing.

 

[oldethennew]

ROMANS 11:34.
For who has known the mind of The Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?

 

[obedienttogod]

Wow, that is quite an assumption. Why would you assume this is a fallen angel simply because he put a lie in the mouths of the prophets of Baal? God himself agreed to the idea. Does this make God evil? In 2 Thess 2:11-12, Paul says concerning those who would not believe that, "God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." Also, in 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that God has "blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Does this make God an evil spirit?

Paul said many thing believers seem to twist out of context. One of them being Grace!!

But, if you read that entire passage of scripture, the king refused to obey God's direction. Ultimately, what God proposed, what the Spirit was granted to do, ended the life of this king. So bottom line, God allowed a lie to be told that cost the life of an unruly king. I never said God did lie, I said He allowed the lie knowing the end result. Why would a good angel be able to lie? That ultimately would make God a liar. But if a fallen angel was allowed to do as such, it would remove God from the responsibility of telling the lie.

 

[obedienttogod]

I think it is hilariously sad that people believe that man was stupid and did not have written language until 3500 B.C...........oblivious to the fact that the old world perished in the flood....when evidence globally when not suppressed indicates that man from day one was as smart if not smarter than men today.....!!!

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, clearly had a language and wrote a Book.

 

[obedienttogod]

No one really know who wrote the book of Job, even though the rabbis assumed it was Moses. It is entirely possible that Job himself wrote this book after his excruciating experiences, since the language of Job does not resemble the language of Moses. Since it is definitely a part of the Hebrew canon, this book was divinely inspired and has many insights which are amazing.

Something very interesting about the Book of Job, and why many call it the oldest book of the Canon:

Job 40 (this is God speaking about His creation):

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.



Here is a definition of the behemoth from OXFORD.


A huge or monstrous creature.

‘behemoths like the brontosaurus’


Let's say that God is speaking about an actual brontosaurus to Job. God is speaking to Job, like Job has first hand knowledge of what a behemoth (brontosaurus) is. If the behemoth was in fact a brontosaurus, that puts Job at the time of all dinosaurs, maybe even just before the "Ice Age." Which means, if Job wrote his own Book, he did it before any known language was even developed.

But then again, I believe the earth is much much older than 6,000 years, as in at least a couple hundred thousand years or more.

Clearly when Adam was created, then his departure from Eden, later on after his son Cain killed his brother Abel and then went to the land of Nod and met himself a wife, these were not direct descendants of Adam. These people had lineages longer than Adam.

 

[oldhermit]

Paul said many thing believers seem to twist out of context. One of them being Grace!!

But, if you read that entire passage of scripture, the king refused to obey God's direction. Ultimately, what God proposed, what the Spirit was granted to do, ended the life of this king. So bottom line, God allowed a lie to be told that cost the life of an unruly king. I never said God did lie, I said He allowed the lie knowing the end result. Why would a good angel be able to lie? That ultimately would make God a liar. But if a fallen angel was allowed to do as such, it would remove God from the responsibility of telling the lie.

You are trying to make an angel an evil spirit because YOU don't think he could put a lie in the mouths of false prophets. There is no way you can force that conclusion from the text.

 

[oldhermit]

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, clearly had a language and wrote a Book.

LOL. Enoch did not write anything. The so-called Book of Enoch is nothing more than non-inspired nonsense. It is what is called a pseudo document.

 

[PennEd]

Well, for one thing, this is not a vision of Job's nor is he recounting this story. Also, the book of Job was written more than likely by Moses, not Job. So, are you assuming that because Satan and God are having this conversation that this "presentation" of the sons of God is something that is taking place in heaven? If so, what could this possibly have to do with Job and why would one automatically assume that Satan must be in heaven for this conversation between Satan and God to be taking place?

Leviticus defines the terminology for us about one's presentation to Jehovah. The presentation of one's self before God is precisely what those in the Levitical system did who brought their sacrifices to the altar. God told them that when they brought their gifts to the altar, he would meet them there and bless them and forgive their sins. This is indicative of an act of worship. There is no reason that this is not simply referring to the worshipers of God - sons of God, who lived in the time of Job. It seems rather obvious that Job is one of these and God points him out to Satan and asks have you considered my servant Job? Would this not seem to better fit the context?

If this is a worship scenario the presence of God is among his worshipers (See the examples of the offering of sacrifices in Exodus 25:22 "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.") This then is an earth-bound experience. Clearly, Satan is also present. This does not necessitate that this is taking place in heaven. This is unwarranted conjecture.

I guess the term "sons of God" used later in Job, WHO REJOICED UPON SEEING THE EARTH CREATED, were Job and other humans?

The violence done to God's Word by these type of private interpretations is dangerous, and foolhardy.

None of these guys that twist Scripture in Genesis 6 can explain why the heck the Angels that sinned, IN A SIMILAR MANNER TO SODOM, BY GOING AFTER STRANFE FLESH, are in chains in Tartarus!

 

[louis]

God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16).
God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

With the comprehension that God is a Spirit, and Love, the sons of God would then be spiritually attuned and know love.
The daughters of men on the other hand would not be spiritually attuned and not know love, but would instead be carnally focused.

 

[oldhermit]

I guess the term "sons of God" used later in Job, WHO REJOICED UPON SEEING THE EARTH CREATED, were Job and other humans?

The violence done to God's Word by these type of private interpretations is dangerous, and foolhardy.

None of these guys that twist Scripture in Genesis 6 can explain why the heck the Angels that sinned, IN A SIMILAR MANNER TO SODOM, BY GOING AFTER STRANFE FLESH, are in chains in Tartarus!

I don't think you are quite understanding what Jude says. Look at the construction of the text. "Which likewise indulged in sexual immorality" is not linking the angels who left their first estate to Sodom and Gomorrah, it is linking the behavior of the "surrounding cities" to the like behavior of Sodom and Gomorrah. The sin of the angels is specified simply as having left their "own position of authority" not sexual immorality.

"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."