What is a true church?

[Scotth1960]

A body of people with changed hearts the are reaching out to make disciples of the nations with the Gospel through their deeds.

Dear DanuckInUSA, I am persuaded there may indeed be true, real Christians in almost every denomination, as long as they all believe Christ is Lord, and don't deny the Trinity, or salvation by the blood of the Cross and the resurrection of Christ. But that doesn't mean there is not a specific Church that was founded and established by Christ, and that this Church is knowable by its life and teachings, and by its saints and teachers and prophets. The successors of the 12 Apostles and by its bishops in apostolic succession. Following after as bishops from St. Peter, St. Andrew, St. John, St. James, St. Thomas, etc. All real churches, in places like Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, and in later times in Moscow and other places. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[dscherck]

The Bible is the final authority on the Church. Not the baptist code nor the methodist code ,or any of the protestant codes.. those are all man-made doctrines from satan himself

Actually, the Scripture itself contradicts your claim. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15). The New Testament is composed of letters and books written to the Church that was already existant prior. Christianity is not a bible based religion, the inverse is in fact true. The Scriptures (the New Testament specifically) are based on the teachings of the Christian religion.

 

[contemplative]

James and Paul both ascribe to the fact that the grace which has been shaved should have altered your heart in such a way that your actions can't help but illustrate Christ.

A minor lol at shaven grace.

Anyway, do they say that all actions will be unambiguously interpreted as illustrating Christ? No one can force another to see his intentions. Saul, for instance, needed more than a faithful Christian's martyrdom to see Christ. He obviously had enough exposure to them that he felt they deserved his attention. If Saul had gone by the definition it seems you're proposing here, these heretics weren't the true church.

Whose judgment do we rely on, then?

If the actions aren't there it is not a sign that your deeds arent saving, it is a sign that you have not received the Grace that Christ brings.

The accuracy of the definition it seems you're trying to create here is necessarily dependent on the objectivity of the observer. I suppose what I'm saying is this - there are two separate questions which I think we're conflating here:

#1) What is a true church?
#2) How do we recognize one?

In my reading of the scriptures, a true church can waver in its actions and doctrine. They, like Israel, are called back or chastised. In fact, getting spanked attests to your identity:

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

A church doesn't have to be a good church to be a church. We can misuse the grace we've been given, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that God gave it.

It is true that we have signs, but these are hints, not definitions, and should not be used as such. If we don't have a perfect rule by which we can classify churches, this is a failure of our faculties, not of the question.

 

[Sinnner]

I'll tell you exactly WHO the true Church is. The true Church isn't found in a building or in a denomination. The true Church of Christ are those who believe Jesus is the son of God, whose father is Our Creator, and whose Holy Spirit is the one who inspired the Word of God and is the one who lives in us once we give our lives over to Him accepting we are sinners and are saved only by the Grace of God Through Jesus's Sacrifice. The true Church submits it's will and gives it over to the will of God that is found in His Word which is taught to us ONLY by the Holy Spirit. Those who TRULY Love God Keep his commands. AND that is the true Church of Christ.

Clapping out loud, amen brother.

 

[Scotth1960]

Actually, the Scripture itself contradicts your claim. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15). The New Testament is composed of letters and books written to the Church that was already existant prior. Christianity is not a bible based religion, the inverse is in fact true. The Scriptures (the New Testament specifically) are based on the teachings of the Christian religion.

As for Protestantism coming from satan, anything that denies the Trinity and Jesus Christ is God comes from satan. Some Protestants do this. NOT ALL. Some are TRINITARIAN, and, THEREFORE, are CHRISTIANS. Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, all of THESE, ALL OF THESE ARE CHRISTIANS. Christianity is not a Bible based religion. It is a Church-based religion, and a Christ-based religion. Christ is inseparable from His Church. It is only a question of WHICH CHURCH is the same CHURCH as the CHURCH OF THE NT. We have three or four, maybe five possible answers 1 Eastern Orthodox 2 Oriental Orthodox 3 Roman Catholic 4 Old Catholic 5 Protestant possibly 6 Anglican In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[DanuckInUSA]

I agree a church could be imperfect and not all of their actions would indicate the saving Grace. But a true church's actions would illustrate the Spirit within the hearts of the body.

 

[Red33]

As for Protestantism coming from satan, anything that denies the Trinity and Jesus Christ is God comes from satan. Some Protestants do this. NOT ALL. Some are TRINITARIAN, and, THEREFORE, are CHRISTIANS. Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, all of THESE, ALL OF THESE ARE CHRISTIANS. Christianity is not a Bible based religion. It is a Church-based religion, and a Christ-based religion. Christ is inseparable from His Church. It is only a question of WHICH CHURCH is the same CHURCH as the CHURCH OF THE NT. We have three or four, maybe five possible answers 1 Eastern Orthodox 2 Oriental Orthodox 3 Roman Catholic 4 Old Catholic 5 Protestant possibly 6 Anglican In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Not everything comes from the devil. There are some things that come from the mind of the flesh that we can label as humanism. The sins of the flesh come from the flesh. We can be tempted by the devil and not give place and we can be stimulated by the lust of our own flesh and give place to it and it had nothing to do with the devil. There are doctrines that come from men (Mt 5:19, Col 2:22) and their is doctrine that comes from devils (1Tim 4:1).

As far as the church goes you are very confused and way off base. The church is made up of all blood bought born again believers where ever they are. They can be in many different denominations including the RRC. This Scott Harrington fellow ought to leave all these preachers to the Christ who is over all. When you get into judging these men and what they believe you stop doing what God has called you to do, preach Christ and Him crucified. When you judge others you begin to think evil and that's why you stay away. Whenever you judge others as this man is doing, it never is for the glory of God. You want to glorify the Father, let your light shine before men and preach the gospel, but stay away of condemning others.

 

[Lalilo]

A true church would be a united church following the word of God, united in its purpose and beliefs and fill with the present of the holy spirit..

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

A true church would be a united church following the word of God, united in its purpose and beliefs and fill with the present of the holy spirit..

The church is made up of all blood bought born again believers where ever they are.

I think the two of these quotes fit together fairly nicely.

There really is no point in being a church if the church isn't doing it's job (i.e. showing the values of the kingdom of heaven to the rest of the world).

Luk 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve [were] with him,

I like this verse because it talks about preaching, but then it also talks about showing the glad tidingsof the kingdom of heaven. People need to SEE that the (or "a") church really does have something to offer.

Everyone in the world knows that if you want to hear preaching you just go to ANY church regardless of denomination. But if they want to find people who are willing to work for love 7 days a week helping one another just because they want to help, where do they go? I've not seen any churches doing that.

But that's what Jesus and his followers did. That's what the believers in acts, who sold everything they had, shared all things in common, and preached the gospel full time did and look at what kind of response it drew from the world around them...

Act 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

What a fantastic witness for the kingdom of heaven, and yet it certainly didn't come through preaching alone!

I believe that is the kind of faith that the world needs to see today but where is it? After telling a story about a widow who went to extreme measures to get what she wanted Jesus said

Luk 18:8 ... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

What a said commentary on the people of this world from our Lord and Saviour. Where are the Christians with enough faith to just do what Jesus said; even the really hard stuff like forsaking all, living by faith, and going into all the world to preach the gospel?

When you see a church doing that (not just a few "special" people in the church with a congregation paying tithes to them to do all the hard work for them), then you will have seen "A" true church on this world.

So, anyone here wanna give it a try?

 

[wisdomseeker]

It is evident from the letters to the seven churches in Asia (Rev.2:1-3:11), that not every group of people that call themselves a church are indeed a church. Jesus told the church of Sardis that, even though they had a name for being alive, they were dead. Laodicea made Our Lord want to puke, and the most doctrinally orthodox church, Ephesus, was about to lose its status as a church, and later did when God removed their lampstand. I was curious as to what criteria the members of this forum would use to define a true church?

Those people of coarse Chosen by God that meet together in his name.I will remind you of the parable of the chosen one taken the other left.As you recall paul preached in all churches trying to save all he could to the jew he acted as a jew that he might save them.The church isnt a building anymore but people are the building.Jesus being the corner stone and the rest of us the bricks after him.I have met people of God all over and Love them one of this denomination and one of another.God knows his children and nothing keeps him from them.In revelation he is speaking with the angels running the churches as you read understand those who have ear hear.There has aways bin false teachers crept in to lead astray in the church unfortunatly.The real church of God you ask what it is, well it resides in heaven of Coarse.Starting with God and then Jesus and then its members remeber the scripture taking about how heaven is filled with gold.Well lets just say a man of God is more precious than fine gold more than rubies some could even compare them to such if they chose to.

Love a friend in God

 

[ONE_LORD]

pasive belief in a set of facts will do you no good.. faith is not passive belief. Faith is hearing and doing.. Simply hear and obey

 

[ONE_LORD]

I can believe my car will get me from a to b, but if I get in my car , prop my feet up and fall asleep.. I will get nowhere !! I must put the KEYS in turn it, put the car in gear, fill it with fuel when it gets low, etc
I can believe Jesus is God all day but unless I do something it will get me nowhere!. I must first believe then love Him, ( Or do u think loving Jesus is a work) lol if hell were not so hot and last so long it would be funny. if u then love Him you will obey and follow His example

 

[Glowing]

Anyone who practices Christ's 2 Commandment's

God #1 Work; Turn as many frowns, upside down, as you can.

Help another child GOD, ( Get Over Death)

Our Father and us children are NOT of this world; Death is a Temporal situation, that is currently being dealt with. Everyone should (fallen angels) take their turn in due time, To Stand Against it.

NO ONE can take a life ( were not talking flesh) other than He who gave it to you in the first place. I kill, I make alive, I wound and I heal, and their is NONE that can deliver you out of my hand.

Love and Peace to ALL in CHRIST!!!Forever!

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

I can believe my car will get me from a to b, but if I get in my car , prop my feet up and fall asleep.. I will get nowhere !! I must put the KEYS in turn it, put the car in gear, fill it with fuel when it gets low, etc
I can believe Jesus is God all day but unless I do something it will get me nowhere!. I must first believe then love Him, ( Or do u think loving Jesus is a work) lol if hell were not so hot and last so long it would be funny. if u then love Him you will obey and follow His example

hey, I like your zeal, one_lord. Did you see my comments about doing what Jesus did by forsaking all, living with other Christians, and travelling around to preach and show the kingdom of Heaven the way Jesus did?

What do you think about that idea? We could do it together if you want. I am in Kenya, but I have friends in America, England, and Australia.

After all, Jesus did say...

Jhn 4:35

Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

And

Luk 10:2

Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly [is] great, but the labourers [are] few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

 

[Broern]

The true church is founded on the absolute truth or the Christian Bible. Where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus Christ is already a church.
They are the "true" church if they "obey" all the teaching and commands of our Lord Jesus Christ or He is in the midst of them. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord belong to the church but only those who hear and "obey" His word.

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

The true church is founded on the absolute truth or the Christian Bible. Where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus Christ is already a church.
They are the "true" church if they "obey" all the teaching and commands of our Lord Jesus Christ or He is in the midst of them. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord belong to the church but only those who hear and "obey" His word.

WOOOOHOOOO now THAT'S what I'm talk'n bout!!! Three cheers and amen to you broern.

 

[dscherck]

The true church is founded on the absolute truth or the Christian Bible. Where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus Christ is already a church.
They are the "true" church if they "obey" all the teaching and commands of our Lord Jesus Christ or He is in the midst of them. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord belong to the church but only those who hear and "obey" His word.

Wrong.

The true Church PREDATES the written Gospels by decades. It predates Paul's letters. It even predates Paul's conversion to Christianity. The Bible is a product of the Church. The Church is not the product of the Bible. Even if we were to have no more copies of the Bible left in existence, we would still have the Church.

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

The Church is not the product of the Bible. Even if we were to have no more copies of the Bible left in existence, we would still have the Church.

Ok ds, fair enough. I think your statement is very much true and when I agreed whole heartedly with broern I should have left that part of of the quote.

However, I feel the remainer of his comments were really fantastic. Maybe you could comment on those parts?

Where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus Christ is already a church.
They are the "true" church if they "obey" all the teaching and commands of our Lord Jesus Christ or He is in the midst of them. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord belong to the church but only those who hear and "obey" His word.

 

[contemplative]

However, I feel the remainer of his comments were really fantastic. Maybe you could comment on those parts?

The definition given gives, as I read it, no room for the true church to waver and it gives God no ability to forgive his true church. Which wife ceases being a husband's true wife if she disobeys one of his words? Which husband demands absolute fidelity in all things or ceases viewing his wife as his spouse? It's not coincidental that the image of a married couple is used in scripture as an analogy for the relationship between God and his church.

Besides, a sizable part of Jesus' ministry concerned forgiveness and reconciliation when somebody doesn't obey. If we believe Jesus, these teachings will be necessary even among his followers. They're not something we transcend when we become his true church.

 

[livingbygrace]

I grew up in a fundamentalist chrurch and fully believe the Bible is the final authority for man
However. When many say we must stand fully on the inerrant word of God to have a true church, this does not always prtoduce a true church being led of the Spirit. For many are consumed with the LITERAL word wiothout understanding the heart of the Gospel contained in it.

I could say a trrue church was one where the Holy Spirit was fully in charge, and it is, but then every church would probably claim he was. So what really kis a true church?

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples if you have love one for another.
Such love would not allow barriers depending on race, social standing, affluence or education.

But certain truth is paramount also for a true church. The true Gospel message of grace as written by the Apostles and spoken by Christ must also be fully preached.

Would a true church have to be perfect doctrinally? No

Who is over every issue. I know I am not. Even Paul said he only knew in part. The part I know is much less than the part he knew. But a church with the basics right, driven by love and the Spirit is more a true church than one that sets it sights soley on being perfect according to the literal word, for all too often love, mercy and compassion is sacrificed in pursuit of this

Ands I would class myself as a fundamentalist!