IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then
- Thread starter YehovaYeshua
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Hello Louis,
As I continue to make known, it is paramount in understanding that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events. The event that you have quoted above is in reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Rev.1:7, which says:
"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen."
The reference to the Lord sending out his angels and gathering his elect as described in Matt.24:30-31 and Mark 13:26, is referring to the second coming, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. At that time, the Lord will send out His angels to collect those great tribulation saints who will have survived through the entire tribulation period. The angels are not gathering the church here, as the church will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses (Rev.19:14) when He returns to the earth.
These saints who will be gathered are those who will be in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel.
The reference to the angels gathering them from the "four winds," is refence to them being gathered from every part of the earth. Angels do not gather the church when Lord appears. But the Lord Himself with a voice that sounds like a trumpet will say, "come up here," and the dead will rise first in their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, those who are still alive in Christ will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53). Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
Conclusion: Your reference to Mark 13:26 is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and not the gathering of the church. At that time, the angels will gather the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
As I continue to make known, it is paramount in understanding that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events. The event that you have quoted above is in reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is synonymous with Rev.1:7, which says:
"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen."
The reference to the Lord sending out his angels and gathering his elect as described in Matt.24:30-31 and Mark 13:26, is referring to the second coming, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. At that time, the Lord will send out His angels to collect those great tribulation saints who will have survived through the entire tribulation period. The angels are not gathering the church here, as the church will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses (Rev.19:14) when He returns to the earth.
These saints who will be gathered are those who will be in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel.
The reference to the angels gathering them from the "four winds," is refence to them being gathered from every part of the earth. Angels do not gather the church when Lord appears. But the Lord Himself with a voice that sounds like a trumpet will say, "come up here," and the dead will rise first in their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, those who are still alive in Christ will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53). Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church, His bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
Conclusion: Your reference to Mark 13:26 is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and not the gathering of the church. At that time, the angels will gather the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.
@Ahwatukee how are we supposed to know which "coming" verses refer to the SECOND coming to earth and which "coming" verses refer to the resurrection coming?
Hello Hevosmies,
It comes from studying and becoming familiar with these two events. Whenever you read a scripture which talks about the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is also when the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom, then it is referring to the second coming. Always remember that, the Lord will not return to the earth to end the age until after His wrath has been poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is not until after the seventh bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth.
Below are some of the basic scriptures for the individual events:
The Gathering of the Church = John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53, Rev.4:1-2
The Lord's return to the Earth to End the Age = Matt.24:30-31, Mark 13:26, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21
The church will have been gathered prior to the time of God's tribulation and that because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, any wrath, whether the wrath that is coming upon this earth prior to the Lord's return, nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment resulting in the eternity in the lake of fire.
The principal understanding is that, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath has been satisfied completely. For God to put the church through His wrath would nullify what Jesus already experienced.
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."
When we believed in Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God and His wrath no longer rests upon us, because Jesus took it for us. Therefore, since God's wrath must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth, then the church must be gathered prior to said wrath, which will be initiated by the opening of the first seal.
It comes from studying and becoming familiar with these two events. Whenever you read a scripture which talks about the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is also when the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom, then it is referring to the second coming. Always remember that, the Lord will not return to the earth to end the age until after His wrath has been poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is not until after the seventh bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth.
Below are some of the basic scriptures for the individual events:
The Gathering of the Church = John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53, Rev.4:1-2
The Lord's return to the Earth to End the Age = Matt.24:30-31, Mark 13:26, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21
The church will have been gathered prior to the time of God's tribulation and that because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, any wrath, whether the wrath that is coming upon this earth prior to the Lord's return, nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment resulting in the eternity in the lake of fire.
The principal understanding is that, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath has been satisfied completely. For God to put the church through His wrath would nullify what Jesus already experienced.
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."
When we believed in Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God and His wrath no longer rests upon us, because Jesus took it for us. Therefore, since God's wrath must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth, then the church must be gathered prior to said wrath, which will be initiated by the opening of the first seal.
Because, if the church was in view as being gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would mean that the church would first have to go through the entire wrath of God. Regarding this, read post #426 above.
Also, regarding those great tribulation saints, scripture states that from the middle of the seven years until the Lord returns to end the age, the beast will have been given power to make war and to conquer the saints. Yet regarding the church Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Therefore, those saints mentioned cannot be the church.
I would also mention again that, after the end of chapter 3, the word "church" is never used again within the narrative of God's wrath. The next time we see the church alluded to is as the bride in Rev.19:6-8. It is not until the epilog in Rev.22:16 that we see the word church again. Pretty obvious since the word church is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then disappears.
Also, regarding those great tribulation saints, scripture states that from the middle of the seven years until the Lord returns to end the age, the beast will have been given power to make war and to conquer the saints. Yet regarding the church Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Therefore, those saints mentioned cannot be the church.
I would also mention again that, after the end of chapter 3, the word "church" is never used again within the narrative of God's wrath. The next time we see the church alluded to is as the bride in Rev.19:6-8. It is not until the epilog in Rev.22:16 that we see the word church again. Pretty obvious since the word church is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then disappears.
Hi again Ahwatukee,
We are kind of on the same page, but I do not see how you can claim the saints who make it through the GT are not part of the church.
The Lord sends His angels to gather his elect from the whole earth in Mark 13:27.
These elect from the whole earth are gathered when the whole world sees the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory (Mark 13:26).
These elect on the earth prior to the end of the age, are the saints whom the beasts mouth will wear out and overcome (Daniel 7:25; Revelation 13:7).
The remnant saints who are not killed during the reign of the beast are the heads of Gods church on earth.
The elect saints who are then gathered by the Lords angels, are transported by the Gentiles of the earth to the Middle East (Isaiah 49:22 & Isaiah 60:4, 8-9).
This is the start of the millenium reign on earth, with the Lords church in the Middle East; which will be the New nation of Israel, becoming the highest of all mountains/nations (Isaiah 2:2).
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Isaiah 49:22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
Isaiah 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isaiah 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
We are kind of on the same page, but I do not see how you can claim the saints who make it through the GT are not part of the church.
The Lord sends His angels to gather his elect from the whole earth in Mark 13:27.
These elect from the whole earth are gathered when the whole world sees the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory (Mark 13:26).
These elect on the earth prior to the end of the age, are the saints whom the beasts mouth will wear out and overcome (Daniel 7:25; Revelation 13:7).
The remnant saints who are not killed during the reign of the beast are the heads of Gods church on earth.
The elect saints who are then gathered by the Lords angels, are transported by the Gentiles of the earth to the Middle East (Isaiah 49:22 & Isaiah 60:4, 8-9).
This is the start of the millenium reign on earth, with the Lords church in the Middle East; which will be the New nation of Israel, becoming the highest of all mountains/nations (Isaiah 2:2).
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Isaiah 49:22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
Isaiah 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isaiah 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Lots to catch up on here 
(my apologies if this post doesn't flow, I only have time for an outline):
"The Day of the Lord" consists of all three of the following portions (all earthly-located time period):
1) the "DARK" portion (7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth)
2) the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion (Christ's Second Coming to the earth)
3) the "reign GLORIOUSLY" portion (His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth)
...all 3 parts are what "the Day of the Lord" consists of (so depending on context, it refers to one or more parts of these 3... and note that most sources show that 2Th2:2 should read "DOTL" (rather than "day of Christ" which is not "earthly-located" as "the DOTL" is, wholly; understand that they believed it "IS PRESENT" but Paul is telling them WHY that is NOT SO [ONE THING must happen "FIRST"] )
Hosea 5:15-6:3 speaks of "after two days" and "in the third day" (and context pertains to Israel); so here "the third day" (none of which are "singular 24-hr days," note) refers to "the Last Day" (i.e. "IN the Last Day" refers to when the "resurrection" of OT saints as well as Trib saints will take place, but not that that is the last moment of time existing ever, they are "resurrected" FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [where NO "saint" will be missing, ALL will be present] which commences upon His "return" to the earth [see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [see also Matt8:11 and parallel, with its "G347 'shall sit down [around a table/at a meal]'" word], for example, as well as Lk19:12,15,17,19 "return" when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "cities [10, or 5]," which cities are located on the earth).
Note also the different Greek words for "then" as used (for example) in 2Th2:8a ("and THEN [G2532 G5119]" - kai tote) and that of 1Cor15:24 ("THEN [G1534 - eita] the end"). The second of these two (G1534) is a SEQUENCE word with no time element attached (IOW, it is not stating "then immediately" as some take it to mean). The first two items in this SEQUENCE [LISTED ITEMS] are some 2000 years apart; thus it is wholly reasonable to state that the last listed item in the SEQUENCE comes 1000 years after that.
2Peter3:10-12's correlation with BOTH CHPTS of Isa34-35 should be considered, rather than merely a singular verse pulled out from its context (34:4 alone). "IN WHICH" refers to a time period, rather than a singular point in time.
Much more I could say, but I'm outta time!
(my apologies if this post doesn't flow, I only have time for an outline):"The Day of the Lord" consists of all three of the following portions (all earthly-located time period):
1) the "DARK" portion (7-yr trib unfolding upon the earth)
2) the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" portion (Christ's Second Coming to the earth)
3) the "reign GLORIOUSLY" portion (His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth)
...all 3 parts are what "the Day of the Lord" consists of (so depending on context, it refers to one or more parts of these 3... and note that most sources show that 2Th2:2 should read "DOTL" (rather than "day of Christ" which is not "earthly-located" as "the DOTL" is, wholly; understand that they believed it "IS PRESENT" but Paul is telling them WHY that is NOT SO [ONE THING must happen "FIRST"] )
Hosea 5:15-6:3 speaks of "after two days" and "in the third day" (and context pertains to Israel); so here "the third day" (none of which are "singular 24-hr days," note) refers to "the Last Day" (i.e. "IN the Last Day" refers to when the "resurrection" of OT saints as well as Trib saints will take place, but not that that is the last moment of time existing ever, they are "resurrected" FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [where NO "saint" will be missing, ALL will be present] which commences upon His "return" to the earth [see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [see also Matt8:11 and parallel, with its "G347 'shall sit down [around a table/at a meal]'" word], for example, as well as Lk19:12,15,17,19 "return" when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "cities [10, or 5]," which cities are located on the earth).
Note also the different Greek words for "then" as used (for example) in 2Th2:8a ("and THEN [G2532 G5119]" - kai tote) and that of 1Cor15:24 ("THEN [G1534 - eita] the end"). The second of these two (G1534) is a SEQUENCE word with no time element attached (IOW, it is not stating "then immediately" as some take it to mean). The first two items in this SEQUENCE [LISTED ITEMS] are some 2000 years apart; thus it is wholly reasonable to state that the last listed item in the SEQUENCE comes 1000 years after that.
2Peter3:10-12's correlation with BOTH CHPTS of Isa34-35 should be considered, rather than merely a singular verse pulled out from its context (34:4 alone). "IN WHICH" refers to a time period, rather than a singular point in time.
Much more I could say, but I'm outta time!
I did forget to mention:
--Jesus spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (Matthew 24:4-8; Mark 13:5-8; and described in Lk21:8-11 but not so named there); these are parallel with the SEALS of Rev6 (at the START of the 7-yr trib)
--in 1Th5:2-3 it speaks of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (same Grk word Jesus used, above) which kicks off the whole thing (parallel with the INITIAL ONE Jesus had listed in the Olivet Discourse: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'")
...so, 1Th5:2-3 is not saying this is the END, but the BEGINNING of many more birth pangS [PLURAL] that follow on from that point in time. That is how "birth PANGS" work. It is not "one and done". Here, it is the "THEY" who this "comes UPON" whereas at His Second Coming to the earth Lk17's "and destroyed them ALL" takes place
--Jesus spoke of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (Matthew 24:4-8; Mark 13:5-8; and described in Lk21:8-11 but not so named there); these are parallel with the SEALS of Rev6 (at the START of the 7-yr trib)
--in 1Th5:2-3 it speaks of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (same Grk word Jesus used, above) which kicks off the whole thing (parallel with the INITIAL ONE Jesus had listed in the Olivet Discourse: Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'")
...so, 1Th5:2-3 is not saying this is the END, but the BEGINNING of many more birth pangS [PLURAL] that follow on from that point in time. That is how "birth PANGS" work. It is not "one and done". Here, it is the "THEY" who this "comes UPON" whereas at His Second Coming to the earth Lk17's "and destroyed them ALL" takes place
^ 1Th5:2-3 "and THEY shall not escape" (speaking of those to whom 2Th2:10-12 will apply or be applied); whereas Lk21:36, by contrast, is OTHERS (during that same future specific time period) who WILL "escape [flee out of] each and every one of these things coming on the earth [DURING the trib]" because they, by contrast, chose to heed His word and the instruction specifically given in this passage, etc. (This is not a "rapture" verse.)
[ugh ]
one more thing... about the DOTL time period:
wherever the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in the same contexts as "the Day of the Lord," they are referring to the same time period; and this is ALSO the case in 2Thessalonians where BOTH of these phrases are used in the same context (chpts 1 & 2): basically Paul is stating in chpt 2, don't let anyone try to convince you that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT," it isn't (it was EASY and perfectly reasonable for them to BELIEVE it was indeed PRESENT based on their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE experiences they were enduring, per chpt 1:4 esp'ly); so "IN THAT DAY" is the same as "the DOTL [time period]" and we can see that 2Th2:2-3's "DOTL" and the things that many ppl will BELIEVE in/during that time period as spelled out in 2Th2:9-12 is CONTRASTED with what OTHERS will come to BELIEVE in that SAME specific future limited time period, "IN THAT DAY" (i.e. in the trib) as stated in 2Th1:10b; this is a CONTRAST (per context / per the SAME future time frame)
]one more thing... about the DOTL time period:
wherever the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in the same contexts as "the Day of the Lord," they are referring to the same time period; and this is ALSO the case in 2Thessalonians where BOTH of these phrases are used in the same context (chpts 1 & 2): basically Paul is stating in chpt 2, don't let anyone try to convince you that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT," it isn't (it was EASY and perfectly reasonable for them to BELIEVE it was indeed PRESENT based on their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE experiences they were enduring, per chpt 1:4 esp'ly); so "IN THAT DAY" is the same as "the DOTL [time period]" and we can see that 2Th2:2-3's "DOTL" and the things that many ppl will BELIEVE in/during that time period as spelled out in 2Th2:9-12 is CONTRASTED with what OTHERS will come to BELIEVE in that SAME specific future limited time period, "IN THAT DAY" (i.e. in the trib) as stated in 2Th1:10b; this is a CONTRAST (per context / per the SAME future time frame)
"The dead in Christ" are presently "present with the Lord" [2Cor5:6-8] but not in [physical/resurrected] bodies. That is who and what 1Th4:14 refers to (before they are physically/bodily resurrected and then "caught up together" with [G4862] the "we which are alive and remain" [AS ONE] at the time of our Rapture). This is not a "Second Coming to the earth" context.
1Cor15:51-54 speaks of both "the dead in Christ" ['this corruptible must put on incorruption'] as well as the "we which are alive and remain" ['and this mortal shall have put on immortality'] (that is, changed at our Rapture [and then caught up together (AS ONE)]); whereas 2Cor5:2-4 is specifically making a point about the "we which are alive and remain" (the LIVING/STILL-ALIVE ones at the time of our Rapture), where it speaks of "[do groan...] not for that we would be unclothed [that is, die/death/be apart from our bodies for a time, upon dying], but clothed upon [that is, with our glorified bodies apart from having to die first], that mortality might be swallowed up of life." [THIS is what we are EAGER for!] (this portion speaks only of the LIVING/STILL-ALIVE, the "we which are alive and remain unto" the point when this takes place, regarding "the Church which is His body" and our Rapture).
1Cor15:51-54 speaks of both "the dead in Christ" ['this corruptible must put on incorruption'] as well as the "we which are alive and remain" ['and this mortal shall have put on immortality'] (that is, changed at our Rapture [and then caught up together (AS ONE)]); whereas 2Cor5:2-4 is specifically making a point about the "we which are alive and remain" (the LIVING/STILL-ALIVE ones at the time of our Rapture), where it speaks of "[do groan...] not for that we would be unclothed [that is, die/death/be apart from our bodies for a time, upon dying], but clothed upon [that is, with our glorified bodies apart from having to die first], that mortality might be swallowed up of life." [THIS is what we are EAGER for!] (this portion speaks only of the LIVING/STILL-ALIVE, the "we which are alive and remain unto" the point when this takes place, regarding "the Church which is His body" and our Rapture).
Hello again Louis,
What you are not understanding is that there will be a group referred to as "the great tribulation saints" and who are the ones who will be gathered by the angels. This group is introduced in Rev.7:9-17. This group are those who will turn to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the tribulation. So, your uppercase and bolding is not necessary, as it is not going to change who is being referred to, as you are not differentiating between the church and the great tribulation saints. The elect and the saints that are being referred to are those great tribulation saints who will make it alive through the tribulation period until Jesus returns to the earth.
In Rev.7 John sees the following group:
"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."
The fact that they are from every nation, tribe, people and language makes them Gentiles. Then the elder asks John the following question:
"These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
"“Sir,” I answered, “you are the one who knows.”
Keep in mind that in Rev.1:11 John was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches. The elder even asks John who they are and he says he doesn't know. Therefore, the fact that the elder is now asking John who these in white robes are demonstrates that they are not the church, but another group being introduced. The elder then tells John who this group is:
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
As I previously told you, throughout chapters 1 thru 3 only the word "Ekklesia/church" is used. After the end of chapter 3 the word "church" is never used again, but the word "hagios" translated as "saints" is used throughout the narrative. The reason for this is because in Rev.4:1-2 John hears that same voice that sounds like a trumpet (Jesus) saying "come up here." This is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered. That voice that sounds like a trumpet is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in 1 Thess.4:16 when Paul is describing the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up.
The saints referred to above is again referring to those great tribulation saints who will come to Christ after the church has been removed from the earth and during the tribulation. Just always keep in mind that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and therefore cannot be the saints that are referred to in the scripture.
The church will not even see the antichrist, as we will be gathered before he is revealed. By the time the above happens, all believers belonging to the church will have already received their immortal and glorified bodies and will be returning with Christ to the earth to end the age.
Until you understand the difference between the church and the great tribulation saints, the scriptures that you continue to post will confuse you regarding end-time events. The word of God says the following regarding the church and God's wrath:
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"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!" - Rom.5:9
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thess.1:10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - I Thess.5:9
"Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." - Rev.3:10
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Rev.13:7 which you posted above, takes place during the time of the God's wrath and the reign of the beast. By making the "saints" as referring to the church, you would be putting the church as being on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which as the scriptures posted above make clear, the church is not appointed to suffer.
As I said before, the principal to this is that Christ already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. You are being confused by the use of the word "saints" and "the elect" and applying them as referring to the church.
If you cannot provide scriptures to support your claims, you are then merely making assumptions.
You are assuming that the individuals in Revelation 7 represent newly converted Christians.
You are then assuming these individuals are not gathered with the first group, which you also assume are taken to heaven, and not to the Middle East as numerous scriptures indicate.
If you notice in Revelation 7, the 144,000 are together with the saints from the whole world.
From this point you go on to claim that when John is called up to heaven to be shown things which must be hereafter (indicating future events after the first century), that this verse is an allusion to the church being gathered.
Not only do you not have any other scriptures to support your assumption, but in effect you are changing Gods Word to something it does not even hint at being.
It appears that your long held dogmatic perspectives keep you from seeing the connections in scriptures I posted, which paint a very clear picture in line with the whole Word, and which do not deny various scriptures as does your perspective.
You are assuming that the individuals in Revelation 7 represent newly converted Christians.
You are then assuming these individuals are not gathered with the first group, which you also assume are taken to heaven, and not to the Middle East as numerous scriptures indicate.
If you notice in Revelation 7, the 144,000 are together with the saints from the whole world.
From this point you go on to claim that when John is called up to heaven to be shown things which must be hereafter (indicating future events after the first century), that this verse is an allusion to the church being gathered.
Not only do you not have any other scriptures to support your assumption, but in effect you are changing Gods Word to something it does not even hint at being.
It appears that your long held dogmatic perspectives keep you from seeing the connections in scriptures I posted, which paint a very clear picture in line with the whole Word, and which do not deny various scriptures as does your perspective.
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I believe I *have* supplied scriptural support in past posts (perhaps even in this thread, not sure).
Revelation 1:1 states, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3 the 144000 "servants of our God"] things which must come to pass [<--compare 4:1's phrasing, re: the FUTURE aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" NOT things which will transpire over the course of some 2000 years (i.e. not "FROM the first century"), but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (parallel phrase to that found in Lk18:8 re: "avenge" [see Lk17-end context as well]; and parallel also to Rom16:20 [re: "the Church which is His body's" role, during that same future specific limited time frame, different location (1Cor6:3[14]; etc)]). Much more, but this is sufficient for now.
Note how the 144,000 (singular nation) is set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [plural]" in Rev7. They are kept distinct BECAUSE they are not of "the Church which is His body" (wherein there is NO distinction, in our standing before God "IN Christ") though they are indeed "saints" (having come to faith IN/DURING the trib years [AFTER our Rapture]).
[Note and apply ('correctly apportion') the three distinct: "the Jews," "the Gentiles," "the Church of God"]
Isaiah 60 (your other passage) also shows them to be distinct.
Here is a quote by William Kelly, to that point:
[quoting]
"But in our chapter [Isa60] Jerusalem has its proper central place, as the metropolis of the earth when all shall be settled and governed according to God. Nor is it only sons and daughters that thus come to Zion from far, but strangers too. For there is then to be no such state of things on earth as the church of God, one body, Christ's body. On the contrary Gentiles and Israel, though both blessed by Jehovah, will be distinct and kept so, however harmonious in their relations." --Wm Kelly, Commentary on Isaiah 60 (from Bible Hub)
Note that the Matthew 24:29-31 gathering is parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13 where Israel will be gathered [AFTER/AT END of the trib] "ONE by ONE" (in CONTRAST to our Rapture, which will be "AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY"])
Revelation 1:1 states, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3 the 144000 "servants of our God"] things which must come to pass [<--compare 4:1's phrasing, re: the FUTURE aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" NOT things which will transpire over the course of some 2000 years (i.e. not "FROM the first century"), but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (parallel phrase to that found in Lk18:8 re: "avenge" [see Lk17-end context as well]; and parallel also to Rom16:20 [re: "the Church which is His body's" role, during that same future specific limited time frame, different location (1Cor6:3[14]; etc)]). Much more, but this is sufficient for now.
Note how the 144,000 (singular nation) is set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [plural]" in Rev7. They are kept distinct BECAUSE they are not of "the Church which is His body" (wherein there is NO distinction, in our standing before God "IN Christ") though they are indeed "saints" (having come to faith IN/DURING the trib years [AFTER our Rapture]).
[Note and apply ('correctly apportion') the three distinct: "the Jews," "the Gentiles," "the Church of God"]
Isaiah 60 (your other passage) also shows them to be distinct.
Here is a quote by William Kelly, to that point:
[quoting]
"But in our chapter [Isa60] Jerusalem has its proper central place, as the metropolis of the earth when all shall be settled and governed according to God. Nor is it only sons and daughters that thus come to Zion from far, but strangers too. For there is then to be no such state of things on earth as the church of God, one body, Christ's body. On the contrary Gentiles and Israel, though both blessed by Jehovah, will be distinct and kept so, however harmonious in their relations." --Wm Kelly, Commentary on Isaiah 60 (from Bible Hub)
Note that the Matthew 24:29-31 gathering is parallel with Isaiah 27:12-13 where Israel will be gathered [AFTER/AT END of the trib] "ONE by ONE" (in CONTRAST to our Rapture, which will be "AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY"])
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^ Along with that, here's a quote by Gaebelein, also on Isa60:
[quoting]
"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
CHAPTER 60
The Glory Chapter: The Morning of a New Age and Its Blessing
1. The light and glory has come (Isaiah 60:1) 2. The darkness before the morning (Isaiah 60:2) 3. The conversion of the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3) 4. The dispersed brought home (Isaiah 60:4) 5. The conversion of the world (Isaiah 60:5-9) 6. Jerusalem restored and glorified (Isaiah 60:10-16) 7. The theocratic kingdom established: Its material and spiritual glories (Isaiah 60:17-22) A small volume might be written on this glory chapter. The reader will note how all stands connected with chapters 58-59. First the call to repentance, then the uncovering of Jacob’s transgression, their confession, the answer of Jehovah by His personal manifestation. He deals with His adversaries and appears as Redeemer in Zion. Then the glory light breaks forth. It is the dawn of the morning. That morning was preceded by gross darkness--universal apostasy and corruption. After the glory has broken forth the kingdom age begins. The conversion of the Gentiles will take place and Jerusalem will be indeed the city of a great King. Then at last all the people will be righteous. How strange that Christendom should ignore these majestic predictions and their divine order."
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Isaiah 60 (source: Bible Hub)
[end quoting]
Keep in mind what I've put in past posts about the distinction between "the Marriage" itself (Rev19:7 involving the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and AORIST, in Heaven] to that of Revelation 19:9's "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (the earthly MK; involving the "invited GUESTS [PLURAL]," etc)
[quoting]
"Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
CHAPTER 60
The Glory Chapter: The Morning of a New Age and Its Blessing
1. The light and glory has come (Isaiah 60:1) 2. The darkness before the morning (Isaiah 60:2) 3. The conversion of the Gentiles (Isaiah 60:3) 4. The dispersed brought home (Isaiah 60:4) 5. The conversion of the world (Isaiah 60:5-9) 6. Jerusalem restored and glorified (Isaiah 60:10-16) 7. The theocratic kingdom established: Its material and spiritual glories (Isaiah 60:17-22) A small volume might be written on this glory chapter. The reader will note how all stands connected with chapters 58-59. First the call to repentance, then the uncovering of Jacob’s transgression, their confession, the answer of Jehovah by His personal manifestation. He deals with His adversaries and appears as Redeemer in Zion. Then the glory light breaks forth. It is the dawn of the morning. That morning was preceded by gross darkness--universal apostasy and corruption. After the glory has broken forth the kingdom age begins. The conversion of the Gentiles will take place and Jerusalem will be indeed the city of a great King. Then at last all the people will be righteous. How strange that Christendom should ignore these majestic predictions and their divine order."
--Gaebelein, Commentary on Isaiah 60 (source: Bible Hub)
[end quoting]
Keep in mind what I've put in past posts about the distinction between "the Marriage" itself (Rev19:7 involving the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and AORIST, in Heaven] to that of Revelation 19:9's "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (the earthly MK; involving the "invited GUESTS [PLURAL]," etc)
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